So Narrative Cutscenes are now bad

[LobsterFeng]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/cutscenes

According to Extra Credits' new episode (I realize it's been out for a while but I just watched it) cutscenes aren't meant to deliver narrative. What?

I know ExtraCredits are all about that "games are art" thing, and I totally agree with that, but I seriously don't see what they're getting at with this episode. Now I'm not trying to justify games like MGS4 or anything, games probably shouldn't have cutscenes that last more than 10 minutes, but are cutscenes really that bad?

I don't see what's wrong with trying to make a cinematic game. The appeal of watching a movie but you get to play all the action scenes seems really cool to me. And I like games that tell stories through the gameplay alone just as much as the next guy, but imagining an industry that makes games only like that just seems silly to me.

I don't know, what do you guys think?

EDIT:

Perhaps I should rephrase this (I rushed this post out in case you couldn't tell) I don't see the problem with creating cinematic games. I find cinematic games cool. And around the 4 minute mark they start talking about why cinematic games don't work, and I guess some of them don't, but I don't see why we should stop trying to make them work.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Meh, to be honest, Extra Credits is a little hit and miss.

Some episodes have some brilliant insight.

And some of them are just preachy pieces of crap.

The latest episode was the latter.

 

[sagejosh]

I actually enjoy cut-scenes alot it gives you a chance to see what your character is actually like. if there were no cut scenes in shenmue your character would look like a complete ass that goes on a vendetta for nothing and metal gear solid 4 would be 4 minutes long. I understand that games like metal gear and final fantasy have to many cut scenes that are almost all stupid long but if you use them sparingly you can really make the player character like able or give him some...i dont know... character?

 

[Craorach]

It's better to show, than tell.

What the EC crew are saying, and I agree, is that cut scenes remove you from the game, put you in a setting where your character can do things.. or not do thing... that they would/wouldn't normally be able to do and take control away from you.

Narrative is much stronger and more engaging for most people when shown in game in a way they can interact with.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

They said that it is bad if it is OVERUSED! THEY DID NOT SAY THAT IT IS NOT TO BE USED AT ALL! WATCH THE VID ALL THE WAY TO THE END AND YOU WILL SEE IT IS CLEAR AS DAY THAT THEY NEVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SAY THAT CUTSCENES SHOULD BE BANNED!


It's idiots like the OP that make me hate humanity

That makes you hate humanity?

Do people have really low standards nowadays or is it just me?

 

[LobsterFeng]

They said that it is bad if it is OVERUSED! THEY DID NOT SAY THAT IT IS NOT TO BE USED AT ALL! WATCH THE VID ALL THE WAY TO THE END AND YOU WILL SEE IT IS CLEAR AS DAY THAT THEY NEVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SAY THAT CUTSCENES SHOULD BE BANNED!


It's idiots like the OP that make me hate humanity

I'm basing this off the end video quote: "Cutscenes were meant for context, not narrative." (or something like that I don't want to watch the whole video again) Also it's people that insult other people on the internet just because they're on the internet that make me sigh for humanity. Not hate because hate is a strong word.

 

[kebab4you]

Pretty sure they said they didn't want games to overuse em, or do stupid shit with characters, deus ex's boss first boss fight is a great example of the game just taking control and doing something I would never have done myself since I was stealth built T.T"

Games that have you die in a cutscene when right up to that point you could take 100 bullets to your body and not even flinch is another one that irks me.

 

[thelonewolf266]

They said that it is bad if it is OVERUSED! THEY DID NOT SAY THAT IT IS NOT TO BE USED AT ALL! WATCH THE VID ALL THE WAY TO THE END AND YOU WILL SEE IT IS CLEAR AS DAY THAT THEY NEVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SAY THAT CUTSCENES SHOULD BE BANNED!


It's idiots like the OP that make me hate humanity

Ok a person having a different opinion or possibly just mishearing something makes you fire personal insults at them, do an all caps rage and despair for humanity something must have gone wrong in your head for this to be the case there are plenty of reasons for hating humanity wars, greed, psychopaths, this is not one of them.

 

[FFHAuthor]

I'd have to say that after watching that vid, I agree with what they're getting at.

I can name one game where the cut-scenes and the gameplay seemed to be completely divorced from each other and made the game extremely poor, I belive it was 'Black' for the Xbox, it was huge into guns. It was a mediocre FPS, but the cut scenes were completely divorced from the gameplay. Every bit of the story was in the cut scenes, next to nothing was in the gameplay other than one or two voice overs that were little more than one-liners. It made an average game unplayable for me, cutscenes between missions that gave you no connection to the character and no way to connect what you're doing with the story itself.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well to be honest I like cut scenes because they can at least be skipped. Stuff like Half Life which "doesn't" remove control from the player I find removes more control and is more annoying on subsequent playthroughs. This is because you know the story and just want to play for game play or on a few playthroughs you might. This lack of skipping in such makes me want to rage sometimes for example take the scenes in CoD 4 as well because they are a great example of this apparent non removal of control. While these scenes are much more rigid than the Half Life ones they are equally as annoying due to being unskippable. Nothing like this should be unskippable. It completely breaks the flow of speed runs and playthroughs for game play.

 

[Xanadu84]

I...don't think they were saying that at all. They were talking about cutscene's strength being in establishing context, and making them as movies that are thematically divorced from gameplay hurts the narrative. Cutscenes can deliver narrative, but the tools they draw from are different from a filmmaker, with a whole different set of opportunities that are underutilized. Id try watching it again with less bias, because i'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion based on more then a cursory listen.

 

[FreakSheet]

They said that it is bad if it is OVERUSED! THEY DID NOT SAY THAT IT IS NOT TO BE USED AT ALL! WATCH THE VID ALL THE WAY TO THE END AND YOU WILL SEE IT IS CLEAR AS DAY THAT THEY NEVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SAY THAT CUTSCENES SHOULD BE BANNED!


It's idiots like the OP that make me hate humanity

Define 'overused'.

They said that it is bad if it is OVERUSED! THEY DID NOT SAY THAT IT IS NOT TO BE USED AT ALL! WATCH THE VID ALL THE WAY TO THE END AND YOU WILL SEE IT IS CLEAR AS DAY THAT THEY NEVER IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SAY THAT CUTSCENES SHOULD BE BANNED!


It's idiots like the OP that make me hate humanity

Define 'overused'.

Metal Gear Solid 4.

Definiation and proof right there.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Theres nothing wrong with narrative cut scenes. Beginning cut scenes that set the place and tone are great tools, and an ending one can be as well. There's nothing wrong with ones inbetween either, to clarify plot points or tell part of the story that would be boring to play through.

You just cant have all your narrative through them.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I love cutscenes. However, Metal Gear Solid is one of those games that are definitely overusing them. And I love MGS. MGS3 is one of my all time favorite games, but some of the cutscenes are too long for no fuckin' reason, and they're badly written sometimes. Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood have short well written cutscenes. That's how they should be done. I also liked cutscenes in new Deus Ex game. I didn't mind the fact that they are pre-rendered. I don't agree with the whole "cutscenes aren't there to deliver narrative" deal. GTA is the living proof of that as well.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/cutscenes

According to Extra Credits' new episode (I realize it's been out for a while but I just watched it) cutscenes aren't meant to deliver narrative. What?

I know ExtraCredits are all about that "games are art" thing, and I totally agree with that, but I seriously don't see what they're getting at with this episode. Now I'm not trying to justify games like MGS4 or anything, games probably shouldn't have cutscenes that last more than 10 minutes, but are cutscenes really that bad?

I don't see what's wrong with trying to make a cinematic game. The appeal of watching a movie but you get to play all the action scenes seems really cool to me. And I like games that tell stories through the gameplay alone just as much as the next guy, but imagining an industry that makes games only like that just seems silly to me.

I don't know, what do you guys think?

I think you need to re-asses what EC are striving for. They are not saying it's bad, they are saying it's overused.

By overused they mean many games are using this rather restricted approach far too often. Not that they should stop, but cut down on it and explore other narrative avenues.

Most cutscenes are fine, they are short to the point expositions for plot or some form of indicator of what is to come or where you should go, but it's sad that in an interactive medium, developers and game "directors" still rely on cinematic approaches to conveying stories and points of interest, rather then exploiting games inherent interactivity.

EC are pro-game evolution. They want to see this fledgling industry reach it's full potential, not stagnate because people are too afraid to try something different. Cutscenes are a part of gaming as we know it, but it's weakness is that it arrests interactivity, so searching for alternative approaches that complement cutscenes, not abolish them, is the goal.

I honestly don't understand why people jump on everything EC says anyway. They are only giving opinions, preaching to an extent, but ultimately they have the right idea. Games can be so much more then they are now, without losing the the features we appreciate. It's best for us, the consumer, to encourage change since otherwise the industry will continue to release annual games that are carbon copies of other games and never take chances.

 

[the spud]

The thing is, the games industry will always be behind the film industry in the art of making films (duh). That is why games should focus on the strengths of their medium, not try to copy others.

 

[RGman]

Here's the thing about EC: it's an opinion show. It's suposed to generate fruitful discussions and not to be swallowed with no criticism whatsoever. It doesn't present itself as a game design bible so don't criticise it for not being a good one.

Furthermore you seem to have missed the point entirely. It's not that cutscenes are not suposed to be used for narrative, it's that they are not always the only and/or best way to do so in a game. They are trying to draw attention to the fact that we don't experience games in the same way we do with movies, and that we should explore the possibilities that this difference provides in terms of narrative.

 

[Sjakie]

Interpreting grey as white (or black for that matter) is a BAD thing, dear OP.

Stop doing that and learn to listen to the presented information properly. It will save you lots of trouble in the future.

 

[Something Amyss]

"movies" weren't intended to be art. Things change.

 

[Hipsy_Gypsy]

Well to be honest I like cut scenes because they can at least be skipped. Stuff like Half Life which "doesn't" remove control from the player I find removes more control and is more annoying on subsequent playthroughs. This is because you know the story and just want to play for game play or on a few playthroughs you might. This lack of skipping in such makes me want to rage sometimes for example take the scenes in CoD 4 as well because they are a great example of this apparent non removal of control. While these scenes are much more rigid than the Half Life ones they are equally as annoying due to being unskippable. Nothing like this should be unskippable. It completely breaks the flow of speed runs and playthroughs for game play.

Definitely. I hated that with the Fable games and Heavy Rain. It made replaying them excrutiatingly boring. No, wait. The latter mentioned title isn't a game at all but an interactive film. Never mind. Edit: I just mean that I end up running around in circles and just generally end up faffing around waiting for NPCs to finish speaking because I just can't skip.

Anyroad, I tend to prefer narrative in the cutscenes because I have, on a few occassions, completely missed certain plot points or mission objectives because it wasn't clear enough, if that makes sense? Not all the time, mind you, haha. In fact, sometimes it's the other way around because the cutscenes are so boring (and sometimes lengthy). Sometimes cutscenes are interesting to watch like but what we must bear in mind that, this is a game we're talking about. We want to be able to play it! I think that actual gameplay is, of course, the most important aspect of a game, definitely. Some games don't even require cut scenes and that's just grand.

I reckon that if anything, there definitely should be a nice balance. A happy medium, even.


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