So, now that the honeymoon period is over... (Skyrim thread)

[FiatCelebrity]

I really love Skyrim. I probably put more than 200 hours into it (two different characters combined). I was able to play exactly how I wanted, with way less menu diving than most RPGs. Certainly less than NV. I like a game to feel like I'm always in the world, and not in some computer UI. They made a good try of making the enchanting and smithing and alchemy engaging, but where I really think they succeeded was combat and environment.

I don't really understand why everyone is saying that the combat system is bad. Then again, I played on Master difficulty at all times. I notice that with Bethesda games, your character can usually absorb a ton of damage compared to the enemies, so all you have to do is pull the trigger until the other one dies. But on Master difficulty, it was very important to not get hit. That meant in melee I had to choose when to swing, when to block, and when to evade. Added to the dynamics of shield-bashing or bashing with the sword, and the power attacks, melee combat could be quite compelling. That also meant that it was important to not be seen with my sneaky character, and to position myself perfectly for my kills. If I made bad decisions, I was dead, so I really had to plan things out. The bow was also fun to develop by gaining the zoom abilities and slow-motion, and all the magic schools had interesting and unique perks and spells that vastly widened your character's play-style options.

Not only did the combat and leveling systems greatly expand the player's ability to play how they want, but the environment was fantastic to behold. The crazy skyline of the mountains, the beautiful sky that was constantly affected by clouds, stars, aurora borealis-type shit, snow, the sun and the moonS, the gorgeous landscapes, the great-looking monster models like the dragons. . . Maybe the sameness of the concepts underlying Skyrim and all Western fantasy in general was still there, but I would say that the graphics and spooky or irreverent environments were done spectacularly well, and complaints about them sound like playa-hatin to me.

Yes, the people and towns are made of cardboard, but when you appreciate all the things this game does right, you kind of see all the things they try to include but fall short on as tragic but valiant efforts.

 

[CloggedDonkey]

I found that I didn't feel much like a hero, or even someone who can really fix the problems that need fixing. I was the Dragonborn, hero of Skyrim! And I could become the champion of all of the Deadric Lords, become the head of the Thieves Guild, make the Dark Brotherhood strong again, murder the only good dragon in the entire world, commit genocide, use the Necronomicon to become a god, and generally be a terrible person. Oh, but I can save the world! Huh, there are still hundreds of dragons kicking around... and a war that will literally end the universe if the strongest side wins... and I can make the good side weaker... and I can't do shit to the evil side... how am I the hero again?

EDIT: Whoops, forgot what I think... I actually do like the game. It's fun to play, the environments are gorgeous, I actually enjoyed talking to one or two people (mostly Sheoggorath, but, still, he's someone...), and I enjoyed exploring, because every dungeon and forest was something new, sometimes they even had their only little questlines. I still think it's awesome that you can gather information from various sources, then go on a massive, non-computer given quest around the world to find eight evil masks, then lock them in another dimension, or, alternatively, use them to get many dark powers (this again raises the question of how you're a hero...), but I enjoyed the fact that it was in there.

 

[Abedeus]

I overplayed it a bit. Don't want to play it for a while, to be honest.

I know I will play it, but right now I'm suffering from overdose.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I really love Skyrim. I probably put more than 200 hours into it (two different characters combined). I was able to play exactly how I wanted, with way less menu diving than most RPGs. Certainly less than NV. I like a game to feel like I'm always in the world, and not in some computer UI. They made a good try of making the enchanting and smithing and alchemy engaging, but where I really think they succeeded was combat and environment.

I don't really understand why everyone is saying that the combat system is bad. Then again, I played on Master difficulty at all times. I notice that with Bethesda games, your character can usually absorb a ton of damage compared to the enemies, so all you have to do is pull the trigger until the other one dies. But on Master difficulty, it was very important to not get hit. That meant in melee I had to choose when to swing, when to block, and when to evade. Added to the dynamics of shield-bashing or bashing with the sword, and the power attacks, melee combat could be quite compelling. That also meant that it was important to not be seen with my sneaky character, and to position myself perfectly for my kills. If I made bad decisions, I was dead, so I really had to plan things out. The bow was also fun to develop by gaining the zoom abilities and slow-motion, and all the magic schools had interesting and unique perks and spells that vastly widened your character's play-style options.

Not only did the combat and leveling systems greatly expand the player's ability to play how they want, but the environment was fantastic to behold. The crazy skyline of the mountains, the beautiful sky that was constantly affected by clouds, stars, aurora borealis-type shit, snow, the sun and the moonS, the gorgeous landscapes, the great-looking monster models like the dragons. . . Maybe the sameness of the concepts underlying Skyrim and all Western fantasy in general was still there, but I would say that the graphics and spooky or irreverent environments were done spectacularly well, and complaints about them sound like playa-hatin to me.

Yes, the people and towns are made of cardboard, but when you appreciate all the things this game does right, you kind of see all the things they try to include but fall short on as tragic but valiant efforts.

I wouldn't say the combat is BAD. Uninspired maybe. But it's TECHNICALLY sound, for all that's worth. The skill and level system was the biggest wall that kept me from roleplaying in the game. I always felt like I was in a world I had no stake in and had no influence over. You got to hear about your exploits and how it affected others in Fallout 3 and New Vegas through your radio. Skyrim is mostly silent, and even ignores pretty much everything you do aside of killing a dragon for the first time.

I don't think anyone would say the game LOOKS bad, but the setting is very "European fantasy setting" and nothing more. All I seem to trapse though is coniferous forest, caves, and medieval castles/fortresses. Sure Fallout is a lot of Wasteland, but that's what makes finding the next city so amazing. Finding ANY kind of civilization feels like a godsend. No two settlements are the same. In Fallout 3, the very first thing you find is a bombed out neighborhood followed by a city made out of a scavenged Air Yard. What do you see right out of the Skyrim Prologue? A medieval hamlet followed by a medieval castle. They setting is too "safe". There's nothing really out of the ordinary for a standard medieval "swords and sorcery" fantasy game.

And having boring characters and cities is a VERY big deal. It makes the world seem utterly lifeless.

 

[DVS Storm]

Oblivion was sooo much better imo(or maybe it's nostalgia talking here). I have played Skyrim for 5 hours I think and it just didn't feel that special. I personally love the art style and there are many things that I like, but for some reason I felt bored while playing it. It just lacks the spark.

 

[croc3629]

There are tons of things I could say about the fact that my companions aren't nearly as memorable as I would want them to be, the destruction tree needs some work, I wish I had my spears back STILL, and how I should not be the Archmage when I can barely cast any real magic.

But I still love the game despite all that and more. Strange. I don't know, I like the fact that I can project on to my character and have him/her do what s/he does best. And using the community's mods to expand the experience has been working very well for me.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I personally loved Skyrim because it brought back a lot of the better lore from the series.

Characters like Septimus Signus and Heimskr, which most people think are crazy, actually hold the secrets to the real lore.

Oblivion felt incredibly bland, and generic in comparison. It just felt like "here's is some stereotypical mid-evil European cities and fantasy monsters.

Also vikings are badass, and races based off of them are usually badass.


I am disappointed that there were no references to Pelinial Whitestreak, the divine crusader from the Oblivion Knights of the Nine DLc, and his time traveling.

 

[FiatCelebrity]

I really love Skyrim. I probably put more than 200 hours into it (two different characters combined). I was able to play exactly how I wanted, with way less menu diving than most RPGs. Certainly less than NV. I like a game to feel like I'm always in the world, and not in some computer UI. They made a good try of making the enchanting and smithing and alchemy engaging, but where I really think they succeeded was combat and environment.

I don't really understand why everyone is saying that the combat system is bad. Then again, I played on Master difficulty at all times. I notice that with Bethesda games, your character can usually absorb a ton of damage compared to the enemies, so all you have to do is pull the trigger until the other one dies. But on Master difficulty, it was very important to not get hit. That meant in melee I had to choose when to swing, when to block, and when to evade. Added to the dynamics of shield-bashing or bashing with the sword, and the power attacks, melee combat could be quite compelling. That also meant that it was important to not be seen with my sneaky character, and to position myself perfectly for my kills. If I made bad decisions, I was dead, so I really had to plan things out. The bow was also fun to develop by gaining the zoom abilities and slow-motion, and all the magic schools had interesting and unique perks and spells that vastly widened your character's play-style options.

Not only did the combat and leveling systems greatly expand the player's ability to play how they want, but the environment was fantastic to behold. The crazy skyline of the mountains, the beautiful sky that was constantly affected by clouds, stars, aurora borealis-type shit, snow, the sun and the moonS, the gorgeous landscapes, the great-looking monster models like the dragons. . . Maybe the sameness of the concepts underlying Skyrim and all Western fantasy in general was still there, but I would say that the graphics and spooky or irreverent environments were done spectacularly well, and complaints about them sound like playa-hatin to me.

Yes, the people and towns are made of cardboard, but when you appreciate all the things this game does right, you kind of see all the things they try to include but fall short on as tragic but valiant efforts.

I wouldn't say the combat is BAD. Uninspired maybe. But it's TECHNICALLY sound, for all that's worth. The skill and level system was the biggest wall that kept me from roleplaying in the game. I always felt like I was in a world I had no stake in and had no influence over. You got to hear about your exploits and how it affected others in Fallout 3 and New Vegas through your radio. Skyrim is mostly silent, and even ignores pretty much everything you do aside of killing a dragon for the first time.

I don't think anyone would say the game LOOKS bad, but the setting is very "European fantasy setting" and nothing more. All I seem to trapse though is coniferous forest, caves, and medieval castles/fortresses. Sure Fallout is a lot of Wasteland, but that's what makes finding the next city so amazing. Finding ANY kind of civilization feels like a godsend. No two settlements are the same. In Fallout 3, the very first thing you find is a bombed out neighborhood followed by a city made out of a scavenged Air Yard. What do you see right out of the Skyrim Prologue? A medieval hamlet followed by a medieval castle. They setting is too "safe". There's nothing really out of the ordinary for a standard medieval "swords and sorcery" fantasy game.

And having boring characters and cities is a VERY big deal. It makes the world seem utterly lifeless.

Well, considering this is an Elders Scrolls game, and Tamriel and Elves and Orcs and blah blah blah, I think the Western fantasy setting would be impossible for the designers to avoid. There is an expectation that Western fantasy and Elder Scrolls fans expect that would be abandoned if Bethesda tried to get more original with the setting. In other words, by virtue of the fact that this is a continuation of a series that was derivative to begin with, we can't really expect much in the way of innovation. That is one thing that Fallout will always have over any Western fantasy RPG. But, absolutely, the Elder Scrolls is "safe."

Another thing that NV did right over Skyrim was Hardcore mode. It made all the other non-combat gameplay more compelling. The crafting in Skyrim for me ended up as just a way to game the system and get filthy rich. In other words, it became cheat code tools. But, again, the amount of time spent on the epicness of the environments in Skyrim must've made the time for developing the rest of the game prohibitive. I mean, if you look at the variation in all the dungeons and caves in Skyrim, NV was far more tiled in comparison. Skyrim has massive underground caves, myriad plant-life and fungus, beautifully structured ruins made of just a small number of models that are placed and repurposed in clever, dynamic ways.

I do like the core concept of Fallout better, and it delivers a more deep and interesting mindset when role-playing, but it doesn't reach the breath-taking moments that Skyrim can deliver with massive, beautiful, lush epicness. Even the things that make Fallout more engaging on a social level with NPCs are still on the surface, and not much more deep or meaningful than the inhabitants of Tamriel exhibit. And really, when we talk about combat, I think Skyrim has Fallout beat by a long shot. In Fallout, the NPCs are just moving turrets that shoot until they are dead or what they're shooting is dead. I never really get any sense of strategy from them. Not much different from Skyrim, except that in Skyrim you can't just blow them away without even aiming (I really hate VATS, sorry). Turn up the difficulty, then it takes you out of the game even more because people are taking more than a clip to the face without dying. With swords and sorcery, that suspension of disbelief is a little easier to attain, and since not everyone is just shooting at each other until someone dies, they are swinging swords, or summoning shit, or throwing Ice Spikes, or casting buffs, or healing themselves or each other, or running away, or pleading for mercy, or any combination of these at once the bigger the battle.

 

[SajuukKhar]

IMO the main problem with Bethesda game's stories isn't that they cant think up of good stories, because they can, it just that they do so in a way that's so batshit crazy most people cant understand them, and don't put them in the game because they don't want to confuse people.

I would like yall to read the following and tell me if you know how it fits into the elder scrolls story, and by that I mean you know what EVERYTHING said in it means.

Author:
Michael Kirkbride

Hello, everyone. While visiting the demons of the Haight last night, I was handed the document that follows. I was drunk, so I cannot describe the courier, but I can verify that it is, indeed, from the Fifth Era (!) of Tamriel from an author unknown to me, even in visions.

It will be of interest to many lore scholars here; indeed, since it concerns Vivec?s ?Scripture of Love? it was very much of interest to me.

Enjoy.

--

Ald Sotha Below, 5E911
House Sul Progenitor House, duly noted under the digital house,
Whirling School Prefect Approved
Chronocule Delivery: souljewel count: 78888-00-00-00-000

My name is Jubal-lun-Sul, of House Sul, whose name is known and heard throughout the Scathing Bay and the Nine times Nine Thrones. Our lord is High Alma Jaroon, of House Jaroon, whose city is the First City of the New North, where all who Went Under from Landfall settled and made peace with the Worm, when we were not Eighty and One separate peoples but One, carrying the tibrols on our back together and cutting tunnels by the light and heat that all mer wore, with equal dust in every mouth. My family?s name comes from the first child born in the Velothiid, Haeko-dol-Sul, and, like him, we are salt merchants. Our crest is the tusk of the bat-tiger. Our bloodline is registered by C0DA.

The Digitals say we come from another star, but so many have forgotten. I have not, for my lineage granted me audience with Memory, and I have spoken with the Wheels of Lull. I have seen proof, as any who come Up during Landfall Season, when the winds die down enough Above that all may make pilgrimage under the banner of Vehk and Vehk. Though many Above have renounced Memory, they too remember.

--

I tell you now, brothers and sisters of the coming 4th, that the holy Scripture of Love contains all you need to avoid the perils of the Landfall. By chronocules granted by the ?neers of Lull, this warning is given freely and by Love. Sermon 35 begins properly:

?The formulas of proper Velothi magic continue in ancient tradition, but that virility is dead, by which I mean at least replaced. Truth owes its medicinal nature to the establishment of the myth of justice. Its curative properties it likewise owes to the concept of sacrifice. Princes, chiefs, and angels all subscribe to the same notion. This is a view primarily based on a prolific abolition of an implied profanity, seen in ceremonies, knife fighting, hunting, and the exploration of the poetic. On the ritual of occasions, which comes to us from the days of the cave glow, I can say nothing more than to loosen your equation of moods to lunar currency.?

The C0DA broke when Twice Vehk appeared again from Aether, but they captured enough of Him to render the words stable again. In this passage, He describes the goal of the Lunar God, who some of you still ascribe the name ?Lorkhan?. When stabilized, the words become proof:

All creation is subgradient. First was Void, which became split by AE. Anu and Padomay came next and with their first brush came the Aurbis.

Void to Aurbis: naught to pattern.

?Later, and by that I mean much, much later, my reign will be seen as an act of the highest love, which is a return from the astral destiny and the marriages between. By that I mean the catastrophes, which will come from all five corners. Subsequent are the revisions, differentiated between hope and the distraught, situations that are only required by the periodic death of the immutable. Cosmic time is repeated: I wrote of this in an earlier life. An imitation of submersion is love's premonition, its folly into the underworld, by which I mean the day you will read about outside of yourself in an age of gold. For on that day, which is a shadow of the sacrificial concept, all history is obliged to see me for what you are: in love with evil.?

The marriages of the Aether describe the birth of all magic. Like a pregnant [untranslatable], the Aurbis exploded with its surplus. Will formed and, with it, the Potential to Action. This is the advent of the first Digitals: mantellian, mnemolia, the aetherial realm of the etada. The Head of this order is Magnus, but he is not its Ward, for even he was subcreated by the birth of Akatosh.

Aurbis to Aetherius: possibility to maintenance by time.

?To keep one's powers intact at such a stage is to allow for the existence of what can only be called a continual spirit. Make of your love a defense against the horizon. Pure existence is only granted to the holy, which comes in a myriad of forms, half of them frightening and the other half divided into equal parts purposeless and assured. Late is the lover that comes to this by any other walking way than the fifth, which is the number of the limit of this world. The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened.?

Lull calls this a refutation of sorts, but the wise may know it as the first appearance of Nu-Mantia, which is Liberty. Rather, the road to Liberty.

Another subcreation happened to the wheels of the etada, a shore that all of creation crashed against, the terminus of limits known as Oblivion. An echo of the Void before but unalike, many spirits fled here and came to power by merely harnessing the impossibility of Limit+All.

Aetherius to Oblivion: creation to destruction.

?Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such. This scripture is directly ordered by the codes of Mephala, the origin of sex and murder, defeated only by those who take up those ideas without my intervention. The religious elite is not a tendency or a correlation. They are dogma complemented by the influence of the untrustworthy sea and the governance of the stars, dominated at the center by the sword, which is nothing without a victim to cleave unto. This is the love of God and he would show you more: predatory but at the same time instrumental to the will of critical harvest, a scenario by which one becomes as he is, of male and female, the magic hermaphrodite.?

We begin to see the first inkling of emergence, which by its nature requires the merging of two-fold powers. Inevitably, this leads to another gradient, but this time by forceful process: the Trap of the Lunar God. The Aedra are Named at this time, having lent their hands to what was to be the arena of the eternally impossible: Mundus, or Exactness.

Oblivion to Mundus: debris of all possibility to anchor of all things.

?Mark the norms of violence and it barely registers, suspended as it is by treaties written between the original spirits.?

When one visits Memory, you become filled with the first ideas of the Lunar God, and see the trap within the trap. Vehk knows it at this point, and sees for all of you, and realizes the need for treaty: avenue of escape, first stone.

C0DA translation: if all previous gradients continue along this path, especially given that there is now a centerpoint, impossible Mundus, the process of continuation can be pre-figured.

The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE?either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk?s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is ?lunar currency?.

AE CHIM NU-MEN NU-MANTIA

Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled.

?This should be seen as an opportunity, and in no way tedious, though some will give up for it is easier to kiss the lover than become one.?

Here we come to the Scripture?s greatest resignation: to imagine the subcreation AFTER mortal death, which by pattern would mean an echo of Mundus, and through this imagining, the failures of so many.

The Digitals' record of the Lunar God?s involvement in all of this is called the Great Pain: ?The Lunar God failed by his own devices, to show the new progeny how they might not.?

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death.

And so many of you give up.

Mortal Death to Z (Z being the state-gradient echo of Mundus Centerex): antinymic to [untranslatable].

?The lower regions crawl with these souls, caves of shallow treasures, meeting in places to testify by way of extension, when love is only satisfied by a considerable (incalculable) effort.?

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

I AM.

A whole World of You.

God.

God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity and falling into love: I AM AND I ARE ALL WE.

C0DA Digitals have confirmed that a subject in sensory deprivation begins to hallucinate after only twenty minutes. Scale unto this along the magical spectrum and maintenance of time, which is forever, and you begin to see the Lunar God?s failure as Greatest Gift. As above, ?This is the love of God.?

Why Love?

Know Love to avoid the Landfall, my brothers and sisters of the past.

The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him.

I ARE ALL WE.

God is Love.

COME TO THE HOUSE OF WE.

God is Love.

ONE WORLD IN SPIRIT I AM.

God is Love.

--

--

And that is how the message ended. Do with it what you will and freely discuss. I know what I am doing with it, but then, I?ve been trying and trying for years. ?Considerable effort?, indeed.

And perhaps it is no accident that this falls on 9/11. Love to its Memory. And my love to Kurt Kuhlmann, whose birthday was destroyed by the will of critical harvest.

-MK

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Well, considering this is an Elders Scrolls game, and Tamriel and Elves and Orcs and blah blah blah, I think the Western fantasy setting would be impossible for the designers to avoid. There is an expectation that Western fantasy and Elder Scrolls fans expect that would be abandoned if Bethesda tried to get more original with the setting. In other words, by virtue of the fact that this is a continuation of a series that was derivative to begin with, we can't really expect much in the way of innovation. That is one thing that Fallout will always have over any Western fantasy RPG. But, absolutely, the Elder Scrolls is "safe."

Another thing that NV did right over Skyrim was Hardcore mode. It made all the other non-combat gameplay more compelling. The crafting in Skyrim for me ended up as just a way to game the system and get filthy rich. In other words, it became cheat code tools. But, again, the amount of time spent on the epicness of the environments in Skyrim must've made the time for developing the rest of the game prohibitive. I mean, if you look at the variation in all the dungeons and caves in Skyrim, NV was far more tiled in comparison. Skyrim has massive underground caves, myriad plant-life and fungus, beautifully structured ruins made of just a small number of models that are placed and repurposed in clever, dynamic ways.

I do like the core concept of Fallout better, and it delivers a more deep and interesting mindset when role-playing, but it doesn't reach the breath-taking moments that Skyrim can deliver with massive, beautiful, lush epicness. Even the things that make Fallout more engaging on a social level with NPCs are still on the surface, and not much more deep or meaningful than the inhabitants of Tamriel exhibit. And really, when we talk about combat, I think Skyrim has Fallout beat by a long shot. In Fallout, the NPCs are just moving turrets that shoot until they are dead or what they're shooting is dead. I never really get any sense of strategy from them. Not much different from Skyrim, except that in Skyrim you can't just blow them away without even aiming (I really hate VATS, sorry). Turn up the difficulty, then it takes you out of the game even more because people are taking more than a clip to the face without dying. With swords and sorcery, that suspension of disbelief is a little easier to attain, and since not everyone is just shooting at each other until someone dies, they are swinging swords, or summoning shit, or throwing Ice Spikes, or casting buffs, or healing themselves or each other, or running away, or pleading for mercy, or any combination of these at once the bigger the battle.

I'd actually go on a limb and say you might have the combat backwards. In fallout, the different factions all fight in their own way. Sure, you always have someone with a gun and someone with a melee weapon, but what weapons they have and how they use them is different with each. If I'm fighting Powder Gangers, I'll get reader to deal with small arms like handguns and dynamite, if it's one of their camps or strongholds, I know I have to watch out for mines as well. If I'm fighting a Legion Deathsquad, I know I better be ready for at least one Super Sledge, very high caliber rifles, and most likely some explosives. In Skyrim, you always fight the same kinds of enemies set up in the exact same way. It's always low to mid level melee run at you right out of the gate, then you have low to mid level ranged most likely bows maybe magic if the computer is feeling a little spicy, then one big bad guy that's almost always a very high level Magic user. And that's every stronghold. Whether it's bandit group, vampire coven, or the highest echelon of the Thalmor.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

-snip-

What you say is something I noticed too. It feels like people who don't have an intimate knowledge of the Elder Scrolls lore just kind of walk around with blue balls the whole time when it comes to all the books and references. I really don't care about this fucking book if I won't understand it's importance if I haven't read page 9 of the diary of Lord KnuckleDragger the Defiant, Greatest of all Orc Warlords that showed up two games ago. Especially if the joke is the HILARIOUS spelling errors that happen in both books. I'm sorry, the game didn't make me care enough about it's lore to look it up.

 

[FiatCelebrity]

Well, considering this is an Elders Scrolls game, and Tamriel and Elves and Orcs and blah blah blah, I think the Western fantasy setting would be impossible for the designers to avoid. There is an expectation that Western fantasy and Elder Scrolls fans expect that would be abandoned if Bethesda tried to get more original with the setting. In other words, by virtue of the fact that this is a continuation of a series that was derivative to begin with, we can't really expect much in the way of innovation. That is one thing that Fallout will always have over any Western fantasy RPG. But, absolutely, the Elder Scrolls is "safe."

Another thing that NV did right over Skyrim was Hardcore mode. It made all the other non-combat gameplay more compelling. The crafting in Skyrim for me ended up as just a way to game the system and get filthy rich. In other words, it became cheat code tools. But, again, the amount of time spent on the epicness of the environments in Skyrim must've made the time for developing the rest of the game prohibitive. I mean, if you look at the variation in all the dungeons and caves in Skyrim, NV was far more tiled in comparison. Skyrim has massive underground caves, myriad plant-life and fungus, beautifully structured ruins made of just a small number of models that are placed and repurposed in clever, dynamic ways.

I do like the core concept of Fallout better, and it delivers a more deep and interesting mindset when role-playing, but it doesn't reach the breath-taking moments that Skyrim can deliver with massive, beautiful, lush epicness. Even the things that make Fallout more engaging on a social level with NPCs are still on the surface, and not much more deep or meaningful than the inhabitants of Tamriel exhibit. And really, when we talk about combat, I think Skyrim has Fallout beat by a long shot. In Fallout, the NPCs are just moving turrets that shoot until they are dead or what they're shooting is dead. I never really get any sense of strategy from them. Not much different from Skyrim, except that in Skyrim you can't just blow them away without even aiming (I really hate VATS, sorry). Turn up the difficulty, then it takes you out of the game even more because people are taking more than a clip to the face without dying. With swords and sorcery, that suspension of disbelief is a little easier to attain, and since not everyone is just shooting at each other until someone dies, they are swinging swords, or summoning shit, or throwing Ice Spikes, or casting buffs, or healing themselves or each other, or running away, or pleading for mercy, or any combination of these at once the bigger the battle.

I'd actually go on a limb and say you might have the combat backwards. In fallout, the different factions all fight in their own way. Sure, you always have someone with a gun and someone with a melee weapon, but what weapons they have and how they use them is different with each. If I'm fighting Powder Gangers, I'll get reader to deal with small arms like handguns and dynamite, if it's one of their camps or strongholds, I know I have to watch out for mines as well. If I'm fighting a Legion Deathsquad, I know I better be ready for at least one Super Sledge, very high caliber rifles, and most likely some explosives. In Skyrim, you always fight the same kinds of enemies set up in the exact same way. It's always low to mid level melee run at you right out of the gate, then you have low to mid level ranged most likely bows maybe magic if the computer is feeling a little spicy, then one big bad guy that's almost always a very high level Magic user. And that's every stronghold. Whether it's bandit group, vampire coven, or the highest echelon of the Thalmor.

Hmmm. . . fair enough. I think we are just on two ends of a teeter-totter here. (is that how you spell it?) I think good arguments can be made on both sides, but it comes down to preference.

 

[SajuukKhar]

-snip-

What you say is something I noticed too. It feels like people who don't have an intimate knowledge of the Elder Scrolls lore just kind of walk around with blue balls the whole time when it comes to all the books and references. I really don't care about this fucking book if I won't understand it's importance if I haven't read page 9 of Lord KnuckleDragger the Defiant, Greatest of all Orc Warlords that showed up two games ago. Especially if the reference is the HILARIOUS spelling error that happens in both books. I'm sorry, the game didn't make me care enough about it's lore to look it up.

People who don't bother to read the ES games books are like people who don't bother to read the Mass Effect/Dragon Age codex.

They aren't going to get the full experience and depth without it, and claiming that the game is "shallow" or "has a poor story" is really only their fault for not bothering to actually experience the story.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Well, considering this is an Elders Scrolls game, and Tamriel and Elves and Orcs and blah blah blah, I think the Western fantasy setting would be impossible for the designers to avoid. There is an expectation that Western fantasy and Elder Scrolls fans expect that would be abandoned if Bethesda tried to get more original with the setting. In other words, by virtue of the fact that this is a continuation of a series that was derivative to begin with, we can't really expect much in the way of innovation. That is one thing that Fallout will always have over any Western fantasy RPG. But, absolutely, the Elder Scrolls is "safe."

Another thing that NV did right over Skyrim was Hardcore mode. It made all the other non-combat gameplay more compelling. The crafting in Skyrim for me ended up as just a way to game the system and get filthy rich. In other words, it became cheat code tools. But, again, the amount of time spent on the epicness of the environments in Skyrim must've made the time for developing the rest of the game prohibitive. I mean, if you look at the variation in all the dungeons and caves in Skyrim, NV was far more tiled in comparison. Skyrim has massive underground caves, myriad plant-life and fungus, beautifully structured ruins made of just a small number of models that are placed and repurposed in clever, dynamic ways.

I do like the core concept of Fallout better, and it delivers a more deep and interesting mindset when role-playing, but it doesn't reach the breath-taking moments that Skyrim can deliver with massive, beautiful, lush epicness. Even the things that make Fallout more engaging on a social level with NPCs are still on the surface, and not much more deep or meaningful than the inhabitants of Tamriel exhibit. And really, when we talk about combat, I think Skyrim has Fallout beat by a long shot. In Fallout, the NPCs are just moving turrets that shoot until they are dead or what they're shooting is dead. I never really get any sense of strategy from them. Not much different from Skyrim, except that in Skyrim you can't just blow them away without even aiming (I really hate VATS, sorry). Turn up the difficulty, then it takes you out of the game even more because people are taking more than a clip to the face without dying. With swords and sorcery, that suspension of disbelief is a little easier to attain, and since not everyone is just shooting at each other until someone dies, they are swinging swords, or summoning shit, or throwing Ice Spikes, or casting buffs, or healing themselves or each other, or running away, or pleading for mercy, or any combination of these at once the bigger the battle.

I'd actually go on a limb and say you might have the combat backwards. In fallout, the different factions all fight in their own way. Sure, you always have someone with a gun and someone with a melee weapon, but what weapons they have and how they use them is different with each. If I'm fighting Powder Gangers, I'll get reader to deal with small arms like handguns and dynamite, if it's one of their camps or strongholds, I know I have to watch out for mines as well. If I'm fighting a Legion Deathsquad, I know I better be ready for at least one Super Sledge, very high caliber rifles, and most likely some explosives. In Skyrim, you always fight the same kinds of enemies set up in the exact same way. It's always low to mid level melee run at you right out of the gate, then you have low to mid level ranged most likely bows maybe magic if the computer is feeling a little spicy, then one big bad guy that's almost always a very high level Magic user. And that's every stronghold. Whether it's bandit group, vampire coven, or the highest echelon of the Thalmor.

Hmmm. . . fair enough. I think we are just on two ends of a teeter-totter here. (is that how you spell it?) I think good arguments can be made on both sides, but it comes down to preference.

The arguments are very subjective to say the least. The long and short of it is that I couldn't get immersed in Skyrim because of the skill system, wooden characters, sterile world, and a general feeling that I had no control or interaction in the world. Where as in Fallout, the skill system was non-intrusive, the characters were dynamic, the world felt alive, and you always felt like you were doing something because you HEARD about what you had done.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

-snip-

What you say is something I noticed too. It feels like people who don't have an intimate knowledge of the Elder Scrolls lore just kind of walk around with blue balls the whole time when it comes to all the books and references. I really don't care about this fucking book if I won't understand it's importance if I haven't read page 9 of Lord KnuckleDragger the Defiant, Greatest of all Orc Warlords that showed up two games ago. Especially if the reference is the HILARIOUS spelling error that happens in both books. I'm sorry, the game didn't make me care enough about it's lore to look it up.

People who don't bother to read the ES games books are like people who don't bother to read the Mass Effect/Dragon Age codex.

They aren't going to get the full experience and depth without it, and claiming that the game is "shallow" or "has a poor story" is really only their fault for not bothering to actually experience the story.

I took the time to read and listen to literally every single Codex entry in every Mass Effect game. Same for Dragon Age. Because the worlds were engaging enough to make me WANT to. In Elder Scrolls, the game fought me every time I tried to get immersed in the world, so I didn't care enough about the world or it's lore to read the books.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

While I strongly prefer the skill/perk leveling system in Skyrim, I still have yet to get a level 50 character and, I'm sure there's more than one quest line I haven't started/completed. I really liked Skyrim but now that the honeymoon is over (as the OP put it) I think I can safely say that it isn't Oblivion. I'm not saying I'm not going to go back to Skyrim (like I did with Oblivion and, Morrowind before it) but Skyrim just didn't have the same epic feel that Oblivion did. Getting through the main plot seemed too quick and easy and, the B-plot about the civil war seemed to be almost completely absent from the game until I was ready to take it on. Even now that I've destroyed the rebels (FYI: I chose Imperials) none of the Stormcloak in the camps care enough to attack me. It really makes the Civil War portion of the game seem completely arbitrary.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The arguments are very subjective to say the least. The long and short of it is that I couldn't get immersed in Skyrim because of the skill system, wooden characters, sterile world, and a general feeling that I had no control or interaction in the world. Where as in Fallout, the skill system was non-intrusive, the characters were dynamic, the world felt alive, and you always felt like you were doing something because you HEARD about what you had done.

Funny I constantly hear random NPCs thanking me for helping them out, and guard talking about my actions with the various guilds.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

The arguments are very subjective to say the least. The long and short of it is that I couldn't get immersed in Skyrim because of the skill system, wooden characters, sterile world, and a general feeling that I had no control or interaction in the world. Where as in Fallout, the skill system was non-intrusive, the characters were dynamic, the world felt alive, and you always felt like you were doing something because you HEARD about what you had done.

Funny I constantly hear random NPCs thanking me for helping them out, and guard talking about my actions with the various guilds.

Some town guard saying "You killed a DRAGON?!" then immediately mocking me about having my sweet roll stolen REALLY took the wind out of my sails when I was trying to roleplay.

 

[ZeroMachine]

Now that the intense mods are coming out, I'm in love with it again.

But yeah, I'll admit, I got bored for a bit.