So, the Dark Souls Community are a bunch of uppity twats... supposedly?

[IamLEAM1983]

Dark Souls is beatable. You just need to be very, very ponderous about it. I've seen misinformed and self-proclaimed "hardcore" players rush the Asylum Demon five or six times in a row before understanding that they just *might* be doing it wrong. You're not supposed to treat the game's bosses like your average Skyrim dragon encounter, for instance. You can't just fort up, plant up your shield and let the stats do the work. You have to *move*.

You especially have to learn to respond to the bosses' movements, and to take cues from the environment. The only seriously hard encounter is the Capra Demon. If you don't panic, take your time and look around, chances are you'll do well enough.

But - yeah. People have varying definitions on what being "hardcore" means. I've seen people complain that the Souls series uses cheese tactics and that it's just plain unfair. It's not. Don't snap your suspenders while calling yourself hardcore, if you're just going to rush the first solid enemy that comes your way.

I'd personally welcome an Easy Mode. I'm not as great on twitch reflexes as the average gamer, so I need to be even more calculative than the norm, when playing DS. Being able to soak up more damage or to deal more of it (or both) would allow me and other less talented players to practice the basic mechanics of the game at our own pace.

 

[lapan]

Of the players I know personally, I know of two that will disconnect their internet to play the game. Many people who are struggling with the game (I.E. people who would benefit from an easy mode), have already turned off the online content (or run around as beef jerky) so they don't have to deal with twinked invaders.

Ironic in a way, since the onlinemode is probably the most straightforward way to make the game a lot easier.

Many hackers only use simple things like unlimited stam, unlimited items, or even unlimited spells. They are not all immortal players running about with their obvious hacks on. That isn't to say they are all hackers, and I may be off on my estimates. I am just going off of my last two sessions of pvp in the Burg and Oolacile Township. Out of the 37 fights, 16 of them were hackers. It isn't quite 50%, but its close.

Most of items you could use in combat are actually farmable or buyable. Hardcore PVPers will have farmed enough souls to buy them in giant bulks, which may seem unlimited to you. Elizabeths mushrooms are one exception, you can only get a limited number per playthrough. Unlimited health is probably the most obnoxious and easily noticeable hack, the others arent quite as bad as you could still kill them if you are better than them. Possible that i could have encountered such people without noticing, but i doubt it.

 

[barbzilla]

Of the players I know personally, I know of two that will disconnect their internet to play the game. Many people who are struggling with the game (I.E. people who would benefit from an easy mode), have already turned off the online content (or run around as beef jerky) so they don't have to deal with twinked invaders.

Ironic in a way, since the onlinemode is probably the most straightforward way to make the game a lot easier.

It is quite ironic I agree, though they would rather face the challenges on their own, and not deal with being invaded constantly by twinked out characters. It is their choice ultimately.

Many hackers only use simple things like unlimited stam, unlimited items, or even unlimited spells. They are not all immortal players running about with their obvious hacks on. That isn't to say they are all hackers, and I may be off on my estimates. I am just going off of my last two sessions of pvp in the Burg and Oolacile Township. Out of the 37 fights, 16 of them were hackers. It isn't quite 50%, but its close.

Most of items you could use in combat are actually farmable or buyable. Hardcore PVPers will have farmed enough souls to buy them in giant bulks, which may seem unlimited to you. Elizabeths mushrooms are one exception, you can only get a limited number per playthrough. Unlimited health is probably the most obnoxious and easily noticeable hack, the others arent quite as bad as you could still kill them if you are better than them. Possible that i could have encountered such people without noticing, but i doubt it.

The most common item I see used for infinite items are Divine Blessings. You can't farm them, and you can't buy them (well except for 2). There are a finite number you can obtain through all 8 play throughs (just over 50 if memory serves), yet I see people chugging them like mineral water. Same goes for spells, you have a limited number of slots you can obtain, even at 99 attunement (actually it soft caps at 50, but I'm making a point) you only have 10 slots for spells. Yet I'll occasionally see people running about with every spell in the game (this one is more rare). If you really want to see how rampant hacking is, go to the arena area and really look at the top players. Most spell casters you will find have 99 casts of each spell on their list, and stats that do not reflect their level.

I am sure that the usage varies as far as hackers go for every player, so it is quite possible you just don't deal with many of them. I unfortunately end up dealing with many of them. I actually enjoy fighting some of them (especially the ones with infinite health, as it gives me great pleasure kicking them off cliffs), but that doesn't make the pvp any less of a joke to me. I think infinite stamina is the one most players miss. I tend to run around with very heavy weapons, so I notice when players fail to stagger. Same goes with click spam attacking. When you step back and they can spam attack for 2 minutes straight there is an issue.

Back to my point... wait... what was my point again?

 

[barbzilla]

Well I was almost sold, then you brought up FFXII. Though in all honesty 12 wasn't that bad, I just lamented the deviation from the previous style of game

I was okay with it, since FF is usually a different experience one game to the next. Some to a higher degree, but in there's an example of a series that mostly does change right. Though it's also a series that could stand to add a bit of difficulty as its WAY too easy but won't because of its mainstream appeal. But I digress.

Does it keep true to the style of the previous Xenogear games, or has it changed up more than just the gameplay? (also is it turn based or real time?)

It's too early to tell you if it's like Xenogears/ Xenosaga. I mean, yeah, the Mechon remind me of the Gnosis. If drawing a parrallel, the Monado must use a Hilbert Effect to damage them (it doesn't actually, but the idea is similar).

But I've not yet noticed any use of Kabbalah (or any other religious symbology).

The gameplay = that's where I start to get the FFXII vibe I think.
From the giant maps to the real time battles with a menu for abilities, it just has that vibe.

Using abilities effectively, causes the link between your party members to grow in battle. That link allows for things like "revive" and "chain attacks" (which are useful in knocking down {toppling} bosses).

Battles at 0:45

I decided yesterday to continue with The Last Story and am enjoying that as well. I'm still early, but the story seems a bit more contrived but the battle system is fun. It's similar to Xenoblade in that standard attacks are on auto, but has a slightly higher degree of direct player input (blocking, special abilities, cover system). However, so far I haven't been outside and so the game feels like it's on rails a bit more than Xenoblade.



And I still have Mugen souls, Cross Edge and Atelier: Meruru on my backlog...

Don't get me started on back logs... I have an extreme case of gamer's ADD. I tend to move through 5-10 games at the same time, and complete them pretty close together. Then I end up where I am now. Not sure what I want to start. I have tons of games already and don't need to buy any more games, but I loved Xenogears/saga, so I may go ahead and get another. Right now though I am just playing my online games like Chivalry, Forge, and Natural Selection 2 while I decide.

 

[Patrick Buck]

I may have already commented on this, but I'm really to tired to check, All I know is, you are genrealising. Stop it, not all of us are. I love that game, but I don't really give a flying fuck about the addition of the "Easy" mode.

 

[Therumancer]

Simply put a "serious" gamer is generally someone of above average intelligence, usually substantially so, who wants deep, fulfilling, and typically challenging gaming experiences. Someone who also generally considers gaming to be a big part of their life, to the point of it being a major hobby, taking up huge chunks of their time, as opposed to someone who "also" plays games as a casual thing.

You know, I'm trying to kill the stereotype that Dark Souls players think that they're better for liking the game. Can you please not embody it? Also that's a silly thing to think, not everyone has the time and resources to have the dedication to be "serious" gamers, not to mention that some people just don't freaking want to. It doesn't mean that people who are serious have "above average intelligence"

Your a little less rude than some of my other responders, so I'll write back to you in a general sense for everyone who said pretty much the same thing.

Whether it's by choice or due to a lack of abillity, if your not putting in the time and/or getting the results your not a serious gamer. Having the abillity to be one in theory does not make you one, unless you choose to become one. Sure some people do not want to live games... that's fine, but understand that there are plenty of people who choose to get involved in gaming as a major hobby and part of their lifestyle, and those people as a result want things that aren't going to appeal to casual gamers that can't, or will not, dedicate the amount of time to it.

When it comes to intelligence, it might not be a nice point, but there is a differance between someone who plays really deep, serious, games, and someone who just shuts themselves up in their room and plays 12 differant Farmville Accounts (like say maybe some little old lady with her 12 cats). The intelligence comes into play through what it takes to demand the kind of depth we're talking about. If your content with the casual games on the market now, and just play them a lot, by definition your not part of these complaints anyway.

Understand something, when gaming started it used to take a degree of intelligence just to be able to figure out how to make a computer run. Your typical person couldn't get their mind around what to do from say a DOS prompt, which is why computers, and video games, stayed out on the fringes. Games were written for, and by, those who had a ton of time to invest in computers, and hit a certain plateau of intelligence just to be able to get to the point of being able to install, load, and figure out how to play a game.

Things like Windows, plug and play software, etc... made gaming accessible to the general audience, and games have generally been reduced in quality and complexity down to that audience. The entire serious gamer arguement in cases like this is about wanting games that are the moder equivilent to the deepest masterpieces of the era before literally anyone could get onto a computer.

When you get down to it, it's by definition an elitist arguement, heck anyone speaking in defense of "serious gamers" is by definition going to be an elitist, so this should hardly shock and amaze you. Unlike many though I can actually lay out what a "serious gamer" is and pretty much how the divide breaks down. I think people are getting upset because usually the whole "how do you determine which is which" leads to a lack of response as people can't think of a good way of articulating it for someone who doesn't inherantly know. I think I've done a pretty good job with that.


Also as someone who doesn't want a Dark Souls easy mode, I'm really not all that concerned about the crowd that does want one thinking I'm an elitist and not liking me for it. It kind of... you know... goes with the position.

 

[DanDeFool]

I don't see why gamers are upset by having OPTIONS. I'm not a big sports gamer but I love my baseball games, and I want hitting to be realistically hard in my baseball game. The current top baseball series, MLB The Show, has an OPTION to hit just by pressing a single button. I don't have a problem with that because I'm not FORCED into hitting that way. Lastly, Dark Souls is not a hard game anyways (you can kill so many enemies from afar with a bow and arrows), it's actually a really easy game once you understand the game and the mechanics. Many of the boss battles were joke easy like Seath The Scaleless cursed me the first time. Then, I just came back with all the curse resistant clothing and equipment I had, and I just stood right in front of him mashing the melee button without blocking or dodging once. I got through entire dungeons not dying once without using a walkthrough. Demon's Souls/Dark Souls fans really have to get over themselves thinking that these games are actually hard. Dark Souls really disappointed me, I was expecting that I would have to get good at a hard-to-master combat system to get through the game and beat the bosses; NOPE, all you have to do is block and then attack. I was expecting the game throwing enemies at you that forced you to riposte and use advanced moves like how Bayonetta forced you to use dodge offsetting to get through the harder difficulties. Bayonetta on normal difficulty is much harder than Dark Souls.

The way I tried to explain it was that having options gives the player more control over the world than they ought to have. Given that the theme of Dark Souls is based around the player being relatively weak and powerless and having to rely on their wits and skill to overcome forces much more powerful than they are, I feel that giving the player access to a "make all the enemies weaker" button would only serve to weaken the immersion. After all, if you set out to climb a mountain or run a marathon you can't choose to do those things on easy mode, and having such an option would make Lordran seem less like an actual place with inherent challenge and more like a made-up world ( which it is, but you're not supposed to be thinking about that while you play, obviously).

Also, I agree that after a while I found Dark Souls to be much less challenging than it was made out to be. Once you get the basic strategy down and understand how to dodge and block and time your attacks, most of the enemies and bosses really aren't that hard to deal with. What I like about DS was how player ability was always a factor. Unless you grind yourself to a stump, you'll never reach the point where enemies can't touch you because your character is way too powerful. Especially if you decide to go on to a new game plus.

Oh, btw, DS new game + is harder than a brand new game, so technically Dark Souls already has multiple difficulty settings. Just that it's not a "setting", you have to earn it by getting better at the game.

 

[Souplex]

I found that the people whining for a PC port who then complained that it didn't use the service they wanted, and was ill-suited to the interface they liked were the worst of the Dark Souls community.
Other than that we're pretty fine.

 

[Windcaler]

I found that the people whining for a PC port who then complained that it didn't use the service they wanted, and was ill-suited to the interface they liked were the worst of the Dark Souls community.
Other than that we're pretty fine.

To be fair, many of the dark souls community that got up in arms about games for windows live because GFWL is a region locked system. Some people literally cant buy let alone play things on GFWL just because of that. So those complaints are valid. I dont see how else they could have played the game outside piracy

In my case despite living in the US and trying to get help from Microsoft GFWL never worked right on my previous PC. So I literally couldnt run Dark souls. In december I built a new gaming PC and it can run GFWL so its not a problem now but it still annoys me that GFWL was included in any respect just because its a bad system.

 

[n00beffect]

Ugh... Hardcore fans of *anything* are a 'bunch of uppity twats.' I am a fan of a lot of things; in fact I am a huge fan of some things and yet I can still criticise and 'endure' criticism of said things without getting my fanboy-drool soaked nickers in a twist. What is the bloody problem with the stupid easy mode, that you let your insecurities gobble you up and make you write silly things like that? Could it be that you'll be tempted to switch to it, after you get your ass handed to you for the umpteenth time? Is that what this is all about; because it seems to not make much sense, otherwise. Usually most people would put forth the very-rational argument: 'if you don't like it, don't play it.' I.e if you don't like the easy mode then just don't bother with it; but the problem here, seems to be that those supposed 'DS fans' are not only appalled by it, but to such a degree that they seem to show some ridiculous, out of-place signs of fear, as well, up to the point where needless, ungodly-silly rationalizations of their so-called arguments are needed. 'I don't like it 'cause it diminishes the blah blah' yeah yeah yeah - whatever - Just play the stupid easy mode but make sure you don't tell your internet buddies, kay?

As I said in the beginning - hardcore fans of *insert franchise here* should all go and suffocate on their own sweaters. Do I mean don't express your opinion, perhaps? NO, you idiot, I mean don't obsess over it; and don't expect others to agree with it, either.

 

[Keymik]

My whole view on the whole easy mode is basiclly this. If you don't want to play easy mode then don't play easy mode. Simple as that. Why would you complain about something you don't have to do? It's like complaining about someone liking strawberries when you don't.. Just don't f'ing eat strawberries then -_-

 

[kyogen]

Except that if you knowingly and deliberately offer someone who loves ice cream but hates strawberries a bowl of ice cream with strawberries on top, you're the one being a twat. Even if they pick the strawberries off, the aftertaste is still there mucking up the ice cream. It's even worse if the other person is the one who bought and brought the ice cream to share in the first place.

It's perfectly reasonable for the Dark Souls community to object to something that would change the fundamental gaming experience for them. From can still ignore them if they so choose.

 

[Vegosiux]

It's perfectly reasonable for the Dark Souls community to object to something that would change the fundamental gaming experience for them. From can still ignore them if they so choose.

Right, before anyone gets me wrong, the only part of this post that refers directly to DS is the last sentence.

A developer "can ignore" the fanbase the same way you "can do whatever you want" when your girlfriend tells you she "doesn't care" (ye gods, the stereotypes, I apologize to the ladies). With the added misfortune of the developer being in a situation where they have several girlfriends with conflicting desires.

But it's always like this, isn't it, if the fanbase likes it, it's "a sensible decision" and if they don't it's "caving in to (insert derogatory term of the month here)".

I agree, by the way, it's ultimately the developer's choice, but I'll be damned if I can find a gaming community, any gaming community, where the developer's choice is generally respected even if disputed and subject to criticism.

In the end, yes, From is going to do what they feel is a better idea, but I'm pretty sure there will be some people who will find ways to blame some boogeyman out there for From making a decision they don't personally like.

 

[kyogen]

In the end, yes, From is going to do what they feel is a better idea, but I'm pretty sure there will be some people who will find ways to blame some boogeyman out there for From making a decision they don't personally like.

Definitely. It makes me glad I'm not on their development team, but I still wish them luck with whatever they do. I'm just reluctant to tell fans that they can't argue on behalf of whatever it was that made them fans in the first place. It's better if they do it politely, obviously, but that's always the case.

Also, no need to start off your post on the defensive. The guy ahead of me made an ice cream analogy, and there's another way to look at it. That's all.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Playing DS in "easy mode" would most certainly rob the game of something essential. I'm not sure what I'd think of it at that point. It would be less tedious to play, certainly, and less infuriating, but at the same time would lose about 75% of its atmosphere, which is sort of the entire reason to play it. Without that atmosphere, it really just becomes a fairly generic fantasy brawler.

That said, there are tons of games that get better at higher difficulty levels because of the tension they generate. Dark Souls is not unique in this respect, it just capitalizes on it better than most. All an easy mode does it open up the possibility for more than just masochists to enjoy the game, even if what they're playing is a somewhat inferior experience. And hell, for some people easy mode is plenty hard enough. I have friends who struggle even with simple mechanics. Not everyone is a lifelong gamer. Just recommend hard (normal) mode and have the easy mode in there for people who want to see the world and fuss with the game play and not have their fucking balls busted. It's a win-win.

 

[wolfyrik]

Oh hey, another thread that will get derailed in four seconds to turn into "IT SHOULDN'T HAVE AN EASY MODE YOU FILTHY CASUAL" "YES IT SHOULD YOU SCUMBAG ELITIST"

Great work there. Another one of these is just what we need.

Maybe we should just get the devs to flip a coin on it.

Coin tosses are the best way to solve problems.

It was tails. You lose.

 

[Vegosiux]

Oh hey, another thread that will get derailed in four seconds to turn into "IT SHOULDN'T HAVE AN EASY MODE YOU FILTHY CASUAL" "YES IT SHOULD YOU SCUMBAG ELITIST"

Great work there. Another one of these is just what we need.

Maybe we should just get the devs to flip a coin on it.

Coin tosses are the best way to solve problems.

It was tails. You lose.

Puh-lease. My money is on the coin landing on the side.

Also, we don't actually know which way it landed until DS2 hits anyway, do we?