So, the Dark Souls Community are a bunch of uppity twats... supposedly?

[Vegosiux]

At the same time, I thought your response to him/her was aggressive, childish, full of useless rhetoric and borderline trolling.

In the end, I respond to people in a manner I deem fitting and even my passive-aggressive and borderline posts come up as a part of a planned (for the lack of a better word) "strategy" of discussion. That it makes people mistakenly assume they provoked me into an emotional response and I'm not thinking straight can be sometimes very useful - especially when trying to figure out their intent.

But, what was I going to say here. Being able to weave words has nothing to do with the content. If I wanted to listen to something just for the sake of the form, I'd watch a political debate. But this isn't a political debate, this is something where content matters to me as well. And if the content is weak, I'll respond to it as such, even if delivered with perfect oratory skills. Especially then.

Just being "controversial" isn't going to impress me. Neither is just being "well-spoken". Yes, it's going to make me more likely to notice and ponder through your post, respectively, but it entitles nobody to an amicable response from my side, even if it may make a response a lot more likely.

Next time you decide to "offer some friendly advice", by the way, please do so via PM.

 

[Erttheking]

The only thing I don't like about the Dark Souls community is their inability to accept that gear boosting and lagstab kind of ruin the game for those who want to play it properly.

I think the whines about no easy mode is justified though. What the hell is the point people it's hard but it's not THAT hard.

Wait, people actually defend lagstab? And gear boosting...I don't really hate it, but I guess it could make PvP kind of unfair. That hopelessly broken mode.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

The only thing I don't like about the Dark Souls community is their inability to accept that gear boosting and lagstab kind of ruin the game for those who want to play it properly.

I think the whines about no easy mode is justified though. What the hell is the point people it's hard but it's not THAT hard.

Wait, people actually defend lagstab? And gear boosting...I don't really hate it, but I guess it could make PvP kind of unfair. That hopelessly broken mode.

Oh I have seen entire threads that go on and and on with people saying 'It's in the game so it's not cheating to use it' etc.

I mean okay cheat if you want to but don't act like it's an honest to goodness intended part of the gameplay when it's clearly broken. That's just kidding yourself.

As another comment about the easy mode there is a disturbing pattern of people not wanting to LEARN to do anything in games anymore and that's not in the so distance past. We aren't talking about early 80's here. If you have to beat a boss you figure out a tactic with trial and error I don't see how that is so abhorrent. Unless gaming is just made up of people who want to just hammer A to be awesome now.

 

[Callate]

I think I will say this once, and then perhaps copy-and-paste it as (inevitably) necessary.

It shouldn't matter if someone is a fan of a particular series, if someone is a feminist, if someone is a male and sticking up for the point of someone who happens to be a female, if someone is criticizing something that others have also criticized. What should matter is whether they can actually make a compelling and reasoned argument for their point of view. What's tiresome is not impassioned people having a conversation, but the endless dismissive sneering about "fanboys", "feminazis", "entitled gamers", "white knights", "haters", etc. etc. etc.

If you really think you have the entirety of those you disagree with so distilled that you can sum their essence up with such terms, maybe just pat yourself on the back and sit one out? Because I can all but guarantee your contribution isn't going to make it any less likely that another topic on the subject you hate from the p.o.v. of those you least like to hear it from will spring up.

Not a criticism of the O.P.; just a general observation.

 

[Erttheking]

The only thing I don't like about the Dark Souls community is their inability to accept that gear boosting and lagstab kind of ruin the game for those who want to play it properly.

I think the whines about no easy mode is justified though. What the hell is the point people it's hard but it's not THAT hard.

Wait, people actually defend lagstab? And gear boosting...I don't really hate it, but I guess it could make PvP kind of unfair. That hopelessly broken mode.

Oh I have seen entire threads that go on and and on with people saying 'It's in the game so it's not cheating to use it' etc.

I mean okay cheat if you want to but don't act like it's an honest to goodness intended part of the gameplay when it's clearly broken. That's just kidding yourself.

As another comment about the easy mode there is a disturbing pattern of people not wanting to LEARN to do anything in games anymore and that's not in the so distance past. We aren't talking about early 80's here. If you have to beat a boss you figure out a tactic with trial and error I don't see how that is so abhorrent. Unless gaming is just made up of people who want to just hammer A to be awesome now.

Yeah, lagstab IS pretty damn stupid.

 

[Vegosiux]

As another comment about the easy mode there is a disturbing pattern of people not wanting to LEARN to do anything in games anymore and that's not in the so distance past. We aren't talking about early 80's here. If you have to beat a boss you figure out a tactic with trial and error I don't see how that is so abhorrent. Unless gaming is just made up of people who want to just hammer A to be awesome now.

The problem with "trial and error" is that when it works, you still have to figure out why and how it actually worked. It's not a process of "learning"; it's a process of "eliminating possibilities".

Not that it's a bad thing in and of itself, mind, but I do prefer to have at least a rudimentary tactical battle plan for which I can assume to a reasonable degree that I'm not doing everything exactly wrong, and then tweak said plan to work better and better until I pull it off. It's more fun to me that way.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

As another comment about the easy mode there is a disturbing pattern of people not wanting to LEARN to do anything in games anymore and that's not in the so distance past. We aren't talking about early 80's here. If you have to beat a boss you figure out a tactic with trial and error I don't see how that is so abhorrent. Unless gaming is just made up of people who want to just hammer A to be awesome now.

The problem with "trial and error" is that when it works, you still have to figure out why and how it actually worked. It's not a process of "learning"; it's a process of "eliminating possibilities".

Not that it's a bad thing in and of itself, mind, but I do prefer to have at least a rudimentary tactical battle plan for which I can assume to a reasonable degree that I'm not doing everything exactly wrong, and then tweak said plan to work better and better until I pull it off. It's more fun to me that way.

Well yeah, as long as a game has a learning curve, which I would include in a usage of 'trial and error' then that's okay to me. Dark Souls has a tutorial at the beginning and let's you go on from there, hell it practically tells you how to defeat the first and second boss.

It's not unfairly hard it just expects you to 'learn' how to play it.

 

[IronMit]

SNIP
I feel like my character gets more powerful when I get abilities and skills. I don't feel powerful say getting my strength to 99 because the stat just went up and the enemies' stats went up as well so fighting endgame enemies has the same feel as the introductory enemies. RPGs that mainly level stats (like many JRPGs) just don't make me feel like my character is getting stronger, I level just because the enemies up ahead are a higher level and I can't beat them until I get my stats up. Whereas in Borderlands, I level to get new skills like my Maya in Borderlands 2 has immunity to bullets due to a skill and a class mod, which is awesome.

hmmmm my take on the game is higher stats did make me feel more powerful because then I can suddenly wear heavier armour and still fast roll and/or have the poise to withstand a hit or I can now use a more powerful weapon because I have the stats to wield it or I need 30 faith to use great lightning spear.

You can still beat bosses when you are under levelled, with crap weapons and crap armour.you just need to be more skilful..since 1 hit will probably kill you.unless you are leveling just so you can tank enemies/bosses with a shield.

Skyrim is a game where stats and attire are way more important then combat skill...if you and your shield can't withstand a dragon fire then you might as well pack it in...unless you can find a rock to stand behind. However unlocking a perk can suddenly make you feel more powerful.. ie.shield can now block 50% magic perk

I get what you mean about borderlands...that kind of rpg system is always pretty cool when done right. The limited rpg mechanics in deus ex HR and dishonoured can also change the game when you pick and upgrade a skill. Though I got annoyed when i got too over powered by either finding every ruine or getting xp for doing a trivial takedown with no repercussions. Still v good games though.


I like all these systems, when done right any one or any combination can be great.Though I can appreciate why someone will prefer one over the other.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

All I am saying is that Dark Souls doesn't need an easy mode. I didn't say that playing Dark Souls makes me anything more than a Dark Souls fan. All I am saying is that Dark Souls is unique, and there are plenty of options for people who don't like it, or think it is too hard or too easy (though I suspect that most people who say that do so just for attention).

I happen to like the combat in Dark Souls, and I find the game to be challenging as a whole. If you don't like it then, by all means, pump Bayonetta up to very hard or whatever.

No game NEEDS an easy mode, but having one just allows more people to enjoy the game, which is a bad thing how? If you think Dark Souls is hard or challenging, you're either delusional, an impatient person, or just bad at the game.

 

[6_Qubed]

But DS community, you silly bitches, Dark Souls already has an easy mode. It's called unplugging the external network adapter on my XBox so I don't have to deal with any of you.

And the game's not that hard to begin with. Not really. You can't even die. No seriously, I have yet to see a game over screen, I just get kicked back to the last checkpoint, no biggie. Hell, I've got an item in my inventory that does that on cue like a fucking lapdog. I don't lose any items, my money/EXP is right where I left it, and my character experiences no other drawbacks other than looking like a beef-jerky elemental in broken armor, which is sort of par for the course anyway, because being human in this game is only good for about five seconds when you increase the number of HP potions you can pick up for free at each checkpoint. Seriously, HP potions. For free.

Now you want a hard game? Try Dungeon Crawl on for size. Or hell, Spelunky. You brats today are spoiled with your 3D graphics and your multiple lives. Your character dies in a roguelike, you make a new character. Fuck this "continuing" garbage, you can continue to make a new goddamn character. Maybe you can call Dark Souls hardcore when it deletes your save every time you die. Until then, keep your filthy casual traps shut.

(Why yes I have put more hours into Skyrim why do you ask.)

EDIT: Just for the sake of honesty NO I'm not seriously going to call other gamers "filthy casuals". The only person who plays games seriously is the kind of person who doesn't know what it means "to play."

 

[Ryank1908]

At the end of the day, if you don't talk about the issues you have with games, nothing is going to happen to change them. If people are upset with something they have the right, and indeed, should be encouraged, to talk about what they have a problem with and why. Unfortunately you can't stop the few idiots that keep talking rubbish without impeding on the everyman's right to free speech so it's a necessary irritation.

 

[barbzilla]

I don't really care what they do as long as the core Souls experience is left unharmed. Want to make it more accessible? Have fun! If they want to add an Easy Mode, sure go for it. As long as it's only an option. Force an Easy Mode down my throat and then we have a problem.

Which is essentially what most people unhappy with easy mode are unhappy about, not that the people who want to criticise them are willing to pay attention to that. It's much more fun to call them whiny and entitled than actually respond to a discussion.

The fans from what I gather, do not object to the game having the option of being easier. They object to the game being fundamentally changed in order to become easier. Their argument is that you cannot simply add on an easy mode, the game would require a significant design shift in order to be made easier, and this would affect the game for everybody, not just those who do not like the challenge.

The real comparison would be to a game such as Mass Effect and Dragon Age. The fans didn't want the game to be essentially changed to appeal to a wider audience in the sequels. The previous games had more RPG elements, whereas the sequels tended to gear more towards action. The original fans didn't care about new players, they just didn't want the series they enjoyed, drastically changed simply to attain a larger audience.

That's not elitism. It's wanting something you enjoy to remain enjoyable for you.

Sorry, but only some people are against an easy mode because they would have to fundamentally change the game. Those people also change their argument when others point out that something as simple as lowering the soul cost per level, giving bonus health, or even making the enemies do less damage are all examples of an Easy mode that would not effect the main mode what-so-ever. The bulk of the Anti-easy mode arguments can be summed up in these few reasons;

1: The game would have to be fundamentally changed from its core mechanics to make an easy mode.
A: No, wrong, this just isn't the case. As I said earlier, even just giving the player one extra damage point per hit would be an example of an easy mode (though not a very good one). There is nothing that says you have to change how a game works to make an easy mode.

2: The game would slowly slip into a casual land (I.E. the Skyrim argument).
A: This one I kind of agree with, but it isn't guaranteed to happen. I can see where this is a common outcome, so I won't argue this one too much, but it can be done without this happening.

3: I don't have the will power not to use the easy mode (or, in the case of a friend of mine, I see the mode choices as a tactical choice and easy is the superior choice)
A: If you think an easy mode is better, why are you fighting this? This argument just seems redundant, but I love my friend anyway.

4: It lessens my achievements if everyone can do it.
A: Who cares

5: It would ruin multiplayer.
A: No it wouldn't. It would be a simple process of splitting the modes, or just not allowing easy mode to have PVP access. Just take the invasions out of easy mode, and bam.

EDIT: Forgot one
6: Games are art, and you will ruin its artistic integrity.
A: This one I forgot about, because it is semi-valid, while having nothing to do with the argument. Games are art, and as such it holds some intrinsic value belonging to the form. Games are communal art IMO though. Games work similar to performance art, the community influences patches, content, and even story (in some rare cases). Between updates, beta testing, and the forums games are changed very often. Even if you don't want to agree to games being a communal art form, the argument doesn't hold. If the artistic value lays in just the designer (or team), then it is ultimately up to them to decide if an easy mode changes the art in a way they don't want. If this is the case, you have zero say. So, as you can see, there is no reason to take the games as art argument here either.

Now if you can rationally break down one of those arguments to the person using it, they will move to another. Eventually they will either post a 40 minute youtube video of a guy saying the same thing, or they will move to circular logic and "Not uh" responses.

What I find especially funny is how FS decided that since the fans would have a major hissy fit over Easy mode (they watch the internet, trust me), they will instead make the game easier all together and hide it behind the word "Accessibility". Rather than say, giving us an easy mode (easier than DS1), a normal mode (DS1 difficulty), and a hard mode (harder tha... you know what I am about to say).

OT: I am actually rather disappointed with the thought that they may be making the next Souls game easier. I enjoyed the difficulty and would have loved a hard mode (without having to do silly challenges... though I'll probably do the silly challenges anyway). Unfortunately it doesn't seem like this will be the case with DS2. I will still buy it though, and I'm not going to throw a big fit about it. I really enjoyed the level design and the lore in the game, so even if it was as easy as Divinity 2 I would have enjoyed it.

 

[barbzilla]

snip[/i]

You are once again assuming what exactly an easy mode would entail. Yes, if you want to make the game a casual stroll through the park, you would have to change the game a great deal. However, that isn't what the people asking for an easy mode are asking for. They are asking for a less challenging version of the game. Something as simple as making every weapon do exactly one point more damage is technically an easier mode than the normal mode (though just as ridiculous as changing the entire game around to make an easy mode). So as you can see, I can bring out the logical extreme of the other side of the argument as well. The concept of easy mode vs non easy mode is based solely on a hypothetical situation, so trying to force your concept of an easy mode on to people who may have varied ideas of what an easy mode is to them is kind of silly.

I'm not a bundle of negativity either though. If we are talking about making a casual stroll through the park mode, you are entirely correct. They would have to change how the environment and tactics work, and with limited disk space you end up with that bleeding through to the main game play. So, I understand where you are coming from. I just have a different idea of what an easy mode means (after all I have played some games on easy that were down right brutal, far harder than anything I ever encountered on Dark Souls).

Hell, I didn't even get hit by one trap in Sen's Fortress and this is with no walkthrough whatsoever.

Um, how? I seriously doubt you were walking about attacking treasure chests prior to Sen's Fortress, and it would be mighty strange for you to suddenly start there, at least without a guide telling you its a mimic. The triggered traps and the ball I can understand dodging as you are given plenty of warning there, but the mimic was pretty well an instakill for anyone who wasn't using a guide and was on their first playthrough.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Rude. You're the delusional one if you think that it's an easy game for most players. That, or you are only counting players who play with the Dark Souls wiki open, or a strategy guide. Maybe you're some sort of savant, but most people are not. The game is designed in a way that is obtuse and unfriendly in a lot of ways, and it it part of the appeal. I've never died to Seethe the Scaleless, and you can't backstab all of the enemies in the game, by the way.

Anyway, Dark Souls is its own unique experience. Part of that experience is the knowledge that not everyone who plays will get through, or at least that getting through is something of a struggle for everyone. The game requires patience, skill, and luck. If we take away those necessary elements from the playthrough of some of the people then, yes, it is cheapened for others.

I've had this disagreement with other posters. The response is usually that it shouldn't matter how the game comes to others, but it does. This is something of a highscore or leaderboard mentality. Maybe it shouldn't matter that it is more accessible, but it does, and that's just the way that it is.

I didn't play with a Wiki open or a strategy guide or a walkthrough. I died a lot in the beginning but once I learned how the mechanics worked and what each of the stats did, the game was easy. Dark Souls is sorta similar to Resonance of Fate in a sense as RoF throws the whole battle system at you at the very start, and the game is hard because you don't understand the battle system, but once you gain a good understanding of the RoF battle system, the game was easy as shit. Dark Souls is just like that, it's only ever hard because you don't know the mechanics and what the stats do when you start playing. It's pretty easy to figure out what to do in Dark Souls just like any other non-linear RPG; for example, if you run into an enemy that is way stronger than you, you're not supposed to go that way. If you read all my posts, I said I gave up on backstabbing early on because it just made each fight longer than it needed to be, just blocking and normal attacking was faster. And, went up to Seethe the Scaleless with tattered clothes (curse resist of course, I got cursed the first time) and just mashed the attack button and I didn't even block once. Dragon fights should be, you know, hard.

The majority of players for any game don't end up finishing the game, that's a fact. The game only takes patience, not skill or luck. How many enemies can you cheese by shooting arrows at from afar? Quite a lot of them; most of the weaker enemies will run up to you but a very large % of the tougher enemies can be just hit by arrows from a safe distance. All those demons in the tar (or whatever) at the bottom of Sen's Fortress, I killed with arrows from afar. Magic is rather overpowered too if you just save it for boss battles, I killed so many bosses with the good old Lightning Spear.

The hardcore community of any game only cares about who is tops on the leaderboards on the game's hardest difficulty. No one gives a shit if JoeBlow places first with score on very easy difficulty.

Hell, I didn't even get hit by one trap in Sen's Fortress and this is with no walkthrough whatsoever.

Um, how? I seriously doubt you were walking about attacking treasure chests prior to Sen's Fortress, and it would be mighty strange for you to suddenly start there, at least without a guide telling you its a mimic. The triggered traps and the ball I can understand dodging as you are given plenty of warning there, but the mimic was pretty well an instakill for anyone who wasn't using a guide and was on their first playthrough.

I lied, I got hit by one trap in Sen's Fotress but I really don't count it. It was the rolling boulder thing, I made it up to the device at the top without being hit by the rolling boulders and changed where the boulders were going so I could explore the dungeon fully. I guess I went to far away as when I came back, the boulder device was reset for some reason and a boulder killed me. I was attacking treasure chests before Sen's Fortress because I read it as a tip on one of the many "Tips for beginner Dark Souls players" threads. I literally hit every treasure chest in the game before I opened it. Dark Souls is just about being slow and careful, not skillful.

 

[barbzilla]

Snip

I'm sorry, the issue is you aren't giving any real answers. You are guessing at what they might do for an easy mode. I don't pretend to know what or how an easy mode would be implemented, you are the one telling us how it has to be. Not the other way around. I am simply telling you that you are inferring things that have no relevant basis in what may or may not happen. Now if I told you that they were going to turn off pvp for easy mode, drop soul loss on death, and raise the poise given on armor (as well as stability on shields) to make their easy mode, then you could call me on my BS. You aren't psychic (as far as I know, maybe you are?), so how is pretending to know what they "have" to do to create an easy mode telling me why they shouldn't?

You also seem to assume I am not familiar with the game. I am on NG+++++, and while I haven't gone about doing any level 10 full play throughs or speed runs, I do believe I am familiar enough with the mechanics of the game to grasp how it works. Accusing me of not understanding how it functions is another inference on your part. Just because someone is pro-easy mode, doesn't mean I haven't or can't play it as it is. In fact, I am an advocate of adding a hard mode if they add an easy mode.

I also went on to say that those who don't change their reason tend to move forward with circular logic. Moving in circles is your way of avoiding defending your point. When your defense boils down to No no, your just wrong. Re-read my statements, you aren't lending to your credibility.

As to your previous statement, you are assuming that they are trying to make a mode that someone can playthrough with their eyes closed on a Sunday after noon while taking a casual walk through the park. This isn't what anyone I've seen has asked for. In fact, something I haven't seen is someone asking for anything in particular about an easy mode. With the exception of just asking for an easy mode in general. Examples have been given, but those are usually to illustrate that other options are possible, not so much a demand or request that they be implemented. If it makes you feel any better at all, I was quoting the post that you copied as a response to my post (talk about circular logic, though that was my fault for snipping out the content of what I quoted).

I am sorry if you are tired of the debate, perhaps you should retire from it. However, jumping down my throat for one post, going so far as to call my comments inane, isn't the best way to ask me to drop the subject.

How is Xenoblade Chronicles? (I know its a bit off topic, but no reason we can't be civil about other things)

 

[barbzilla]

I lied, I got hit by one trap in Sen's Fotress but I really don't count it. It was the rolling boulder thing, I made it up to the device at the top without being hit by the rolling boulders and changed where the boulders were going so I could explore the dungeon fully. I guess I went to far away as when I came back, the boulder device was reset for some reason and a boulder killed me. I was attacking treasure chests before Sen's Fortress because I read it as a tip on one of the many "Tips for beginner Dark Souls players" threads. I literally hit every treasure chest in the game before I opened it. Dark Souls is just about being slow and careful, not skillful.

Ah, okay gotcha. Though in essence you did, in fact, read a guide. I am not trying to call you a liar or anything, the mimic thing just leads nicely into my next point. People arguing that an easy mode will kill the excitement of a DS game. I disagree based on these thoughts (I won't call them facts, as they are more opinion).

1: There are plenty of environmental hazards in the game, that combined with the enemies make for rather formidable areas. Even making the enemies easier will still lead to plenty of deaths in these areas. Thus creating the sense of accomplishment that you feel when you complete certain challenges. For the people who are looking for an easy mode, these challenges can be just as... well... challenging as what you faced on the normal difficulty.

2: You can't complain that an easy mode would ruin the effect of the game for those that played it in one breath, and then advocate the use of guides in the other. It is just showing a certain amount of hypocrisy that leads to further arguments. I am not calling anyone in particular a hypocrite, and I haven't followed things closely enough to know if the people with the two different points are one and the same. I do know that both points are often made as an avocation for the anti-easy mode advocates, and as such I tend to lump them together in my mind (kinda proving the OP's point in a way I guess. Though I tend to like dark souls fans, as I am one).