So, the Dark Souls Community are a bunch of uppity twats... supposedly?

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Cecilo

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Realistically the easy mode shouldn't affect anyone, It is a separate mode that does not affect anyone that doesn't play it, at worst you have to clarify what mode you beat it on to, do whatever you do for stuff like this. Having that easy mode so the developer and publisher can make more profit off the game really shouldn't be causing as much of a stir as it is. And if they make enough money maybe they will make more later on, Rather than stopping at game number two or one, like so many other games that tried to appeal to just the "Elite" or "Hardcore" Market.

Though, I will agree that changes to appeal to more people are not always a good thing..

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Windcaler

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Shanicus said:
Windcaler said:
Here we have yet another post that seems well thought out and thought provoking but fails to realize what the community has really been saying. Please tell me how many times I have to make the real arguments before it catches on?
Oh, for god's sake...

The main argument I make against an easy mode being implimented is it screws with the art. Games are art, both legally and socially accepted as such by people, by artists, and even by museums. Dark souls is one such piece of art and the primary artistic method the developers used to convey their expression of discovery and achievement was difficulty. They are quoted as saying "The difficulty is an important tool to create a sense of accomplishment and discovery". These were words that came out of their mouths before Dark souls was released and it shows us, fans and non-fans alike, what their artistic method was and what kind of expression they were trying to give
The problem with this is, considering this all started because the developers were supposedly discussing the addition of an easy mode, is that it's very dependent on the developers actions - if they add in an easy mode, everyone's complaints about it are immediately nullified. Granted, everyone who complained about easy mode can just see it as an artist smearing red paint across his work, but it's more along the lines of an artist lowering the cost of admission into his gallery to look at his pretty paintings.

Now I believe that artistic method is sacrosanct. Unless you were promised something (i.e if you commissioned a work of art and arent happy with the end product) you have no right to demand change. That said, I feel it is also fair to criticize art. If a person can create an "easy" mode in such a way that it provides an equal or greater sense of accomplishment and discovery this argument will not hold any weight. The issue with that is, I see it as an impossible feat. Easy mode has been defined as a difficulty level in which any person can complete it since the early days of the NES and perhaps even before that. However to have a sense of accomplishment there must be a chance for failure. Failure is not dying in the game, failure is putting the game down forever. Walking away and never picking it up again. The chance to fail is part of the difficulty and helps further build a foundation for accomplishment for those that succeed.
Now, I've bolded 'Demand' in here for a reason - I have, reading through all of the threads this silly, silly issue has been kicking around, not come across a single argument 'demanding' From Soft add an easy mode/make Dark Souls 2 easier. I've seen 'I'd play it if it was easier', 'It would be nice if it was easier but I'm not fussed' and 'I like the idea of them adding an easy mode and it's quite plausible to add one, but it's not a deal breaker if they don't'. However, I keep seeing anti-easy (urgh...) arguments claiming that people are 'demanding' an easy mode, despite there being no evidence (or poorly made evidence, as I tended to skim over the shitty arguments) to support this.

Let me talk a little more about what is difficulty. Many people make the argument that reducing damage will be fine for an easy mode but this fails in reality. For us verterns, the people who are really good at the game (and make no mistake there are people that are far more adept at the game then me) we've often used the calamity ring which doubles all damage we recieve. The problem is this doesnt actually make the game harder, its the same dodging, its the same blocking, its the same tactics working for the same bosses. The difference is one screw up usually gets you killed and that isnt increased difficulty. Neither can lesser damage be less difficulty. Less difficulty can only come from redesigning the game. Changing attacks so they're easier to read, taking out unblockable attacks despite their obvious tells, removing enemies despite the world already feeling quite empty. These are the only ways one could make a truely easier dark souls and to do it you would have to rip its guts out and make it a shadow of itself. How can an easy mode provide and equal or greater sense of accomplishment and discovery if an easy mode removes the chance for failure in the process?
Actually, there are quite a few ways to make the Souls games easier -
-Less enemies. While enemies aren't numerous in the game, they can still pose a challenge in large groups or ambushes - so, to make it easier, reducing the number of enemies the player faces is a good start (think classic Doom - on normal there's 2 Cacodaemons, on Easy there's 1). Likewise with cutting out ambushes - while normal mode players have to deal with 'Suddenly Archers' after climbing that ladder, Easy-moders don't. This can also be extended to cutting out specific enemy types (i.e. Black Knights), so easy-mode players don't face the more challenging enemies while also giving them something new to learn if they move up to Normal Mode.

-Reduced penalty for death. Instead of losing everything from death, only a percentage of souls (50-75%) is lost on death and a few humanity (or it's equivalent) - plus, possessing the ability to have multiple blood-stains out instead of just the one can also lighten the pressure on easy-moders. Also, since dying isn't as crippling a blow to you, enemy damage doesn't need to change - basically think of giving easy-moders more chances at the same enemy without penalty, instead of losing everything if they fuck up a second time.

-boosting easy-moders starting stats, like weight-limit and gifts. While this doesn't seem like much, it means that Easy-moders aren't as harshly penalized for experimenting with gear sets and learning what works best - since avoiding attacks is a key part of the game, they can equip things like two-handed swords and heavier armour without being forced to fat-roll. This also translates into a good difficulty shift and tactical change with transitioning into normal mode - suddenly you can't just equip that big-ass axe and be able to dodge so easily; you got to start thinking about your gear and whether that power-boost is worth moving slower.

The cool thing about all these options? They're all after-project additions; after building and finishing the base game, the programmers can just go back through and make the changes needed for easy mode. By running for after-project additions, if they happen to run out of cash or time they can just drop easy mode completely without any fuss. Simple, easy, efficient. Hardly as impossible as everyone keeps banging on about.

Now lets talk about this fallacy that keeps getting thrown around about more accessiblity equals more sales. On paper this makes sense but gaming history has shown it to be completely false. Anytime a game has redesigned itself to target people outside its core audience three problems have occured. 1. The core audience it was targeting becomes disatisfied and leaves. 2. The reinvention never really targets new people, giving a mediocre experience to them and translates into less sales. 3. The franchises are quickly forgotten or slowly die out. How does that saying go? Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it? The argument is just a massive assumption that history has proven wrong
Wait... what? I'm pretty sure making a good game and having a decent marketing department means more sales, not accessibility. Hell, even if an easy mode was added, they could keep with their usual marketing of 'Prepare to Die!' while downplaying the easy mode via blog-posts or community word-of-mouth (which you'd be surprised at how effective it is for getting more sales). And, unless they're rendering the game completely differently instead of just adding something optional on, I highly doubt Dark Souls 2 will do 1, 2 or 3 of what your saying there.
Also, though I hate to say it... any evidence of these games that failed horribly by becoming more accessible? Kinda just making a claim in the dark there.

At the end of the day, the problem with this whole debate is the vitriol surrounding the two diametrically opposed philosophies on how games should be done. I personally feel like the majority of posters are just labling the dark souls community as elistist snobs and not listening to the actual arguments were making (exactly what Jim Sterling did). Its also getting to the point where I can just copy and paste the same argument from 10 different threads to say the same thing and quite frankly Im getting tired of saying it but I keep expressing my side of the argument in the vain hope that people will listen to reason
I know your pain - I've seen a bunch of people claim that the pro-easy mode people (urgh...) are 'demanding' that easy mode is added, all the while their arguments are either ignored or mis-interpreted. At this point, I could probably copy-paste my arguments from all the other threads, despite knowing full well that the anti-easy moders (urgh...) won't listen to reason.
1. Oh for gods sake what? Im honestly asking how many times I have to post the real arguments the dark souls community is making before we stop this name calling on both sides? What do I have to do to end this misinformation once and for all?

2. The developers including an easy mode. This is a complete myth. How this all got started was from a Metro interview with Miyazaki (the director of dark souls) in which they said he said he wanted to make the game easier and then they took credit for changing his mind. When I translated the interview I found their "interpretation" to be completely inaccurate but Im not going to put up my translation when its been translated by people far more fluent in Japanese then I. What he really said was "This fact is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it."

Thats how this whole thing started and people have spread this misinformation for months and months and months. News sites are particularly guilty of spreading misinformation and why should they care if they have it wrong? It generates hits right?

It started an old fashioned internet storm of varying opinions and name calling. Things were compounded not long ago when the new directors of Dark souls 2 did an interview with edge in which they said "Dark souls 2 will be more straight forward and accessible." Now I cant find that article right at the moment but I do remember some of the points they brought up. One of the things they talked about with greater accessibility is limiting player options at the start of the game. They also mentioned reviewing hints and clues from earlier in the game.

Now to be fair, neither side of the debate knows what the new developers mean by making the game more straightforward and accessible. They did talk about keeping the game challenging but the change in directors really does show that there will be a different approach. Its kind of like the differences between watching Jurrassic park (directed by Spielburg) and Jurrassic park 3 (directed by Johnston).

The crux of my point is no one on the development team of either game, so far as I am aware, has stated that the game will be easier in any respect. If I am mistaken then please provide a link to the article, video, blog, etc that states they are.

3. Demands for an easy mode. Even if I quote say 10 people (and I could probably quote more demanding an easy mode) you and others would say that isnt representative of the whole. It then becomes a goalkeeper fallacy where that number will keep changing. Well guess what? The single or the whole doesnt matter either way, the fact remains that unless a person was promised something they have no right to demand change to a work of art. Games are art and the methods used for expression to the player is still sacrosanct.

4. Your easy mode suggestions. If these were to be implimented I still believe they would rip out the guts of the game and make it a shadow of itself. I believe in another thread you I mentioned how the promise of difficulty is something dark souls delivers on and you said something like "Well what if I find it to easy?". Ignoring the fact I had already covered such a discussion with you in yet another thread. At this point I feel like you, just you, are hearing me but not listening to me. So Im not doing this dance again, if you want further explanation you can go read my arguments in one of the other threads

5. The chain reaction of redisigning a game. Look at Sonic and the slow death it went through over the years. It wasnt till recently when, I think Generations? came out that the franchise got back to what it was really about. Sales were much better for sonic because it finally felt like a Sonic game instead of the tripe they had been releasing for years

6. Please stop the passive aggressivness. It doesnt suit someone who claims to be approaching these discussions with an intelligent and open mind

V8 Ninja said:
How would adding an easy mode be "Harming" Dark Souls? I've heard countless people say that it would, but I have yet to hear any reasons besides the reason you have specified, and that one is not a good argument because challenge is relative. Some people find Portal to be ridiculously easy while others find it to be frustratingly difficult. Also, the normal and hard difficulties of Dark Souls would still exist and not be altered if an easy mode was added. Your precious game would still exist in an unaltered form.
Why cant you read the dozen other replies Ive made in this thread and others that outline how an easy mode that doesnt touch our game still effects it? Its a fallacy, I know its a fallacy, you know its a fallacy, everyone knows its a fallacy but people keep parroting it as if it will suddenly become true
 

Nomanslander

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s69-5 said:
Most people probably remember me as that guy that defended JRPGs back when the wave of anti-JRPG idiocy plagued the Escapist.
Ugh!... I remember that period of time. -_-

Even though I wasn't a huge supporter of JPRGs and the direction they were taking, it really annoyed me to see the Escapist being so blatantly spiteful towards that genre. And what seemed like solely for the sake of being spiteful... and possibly out of boredom.

-_-
 

Cecilo

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I have yet to see anyone demand an easy mode be added to the game. In fact. The only thing I have seen is that the "Core" Gamers of Dark Souls are demanding that the game stay the same and never ever change.
 

lapan

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dumbseizure said:
al4674 said:
It's a piece of entertainment, not the holy grail of gaming. Let everyone get what they want, From gets more money and the sequel will therefore be even better.

I really do not understand, why people concern themselves with the experience of other people who affect them in no way. As long as I get my classic experience, I don't care about what some other guy does in his game.
Pretty much this. If you won't play easy mode, good for you. Let other people play it then, it has no god damn effect on you.
I only fear it will split the playerbase further. It was hard enough to get multiplayer to work in Dark soul and Demon souls. There are rumors it will go back to a server system, so it would be split like this:

Platform (360/PS3/PC) > Regional Server > Easymode/Normal Mode

That sounds like it would hurt any kind of multiplayer a lot. If it doesn't split the playerbase i'm fine with an "easymode".
 

Asuka Soryu

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Reminds me of people bitching about Luigi beating the level for you in Mario Wii, or the special Tanooki suit in 3D Land. Oh, noes. That thing that doesn't effect you in any way is ruining your gaming experience~ Ha!

The screen cap for this is amazing.
[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/mikis.jpg/]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us [http://imageshack.us]
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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ccdohl said:
And Dark Souls players aren't mad about options. We all fully support the option that everyone has to play other games if they don't like the Souls game the way that they are.
You are the exact example of what is wrong with so many game communities, Bayonetta has a super easy difficulty, no one bitched about that. With Miyazaki not directing, maybe Dark Souls 2 will actually have a good combat system this time. Pulling one enemy at a time so that you can just strafe behind him and backstab makes combat boring and not hard in the least. You actually have to limit your character to make the game in any way challenging.
 

lapan

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Phoenixmgs said:
ccdohl said:
And Dark Souls players aren't mad about options. We all fully support the option that everyone has to play other games if they don't like the Souls game the way that they are.
You are the exact example of what is wrong with so many game communities, Bayonetta has a super easy difficulty, no one bitched about that. With Miyazaki not directing, maybe Dark Souls 2 will actually have a good combat system this time. Pulling one enemy at a time so that you can just strafe behind him and backstab makes combat boring and not hard in the least. You actually have to limit your character to make the game in any way challenging.
I actually like Dark Souls Combat a lot compared to other games of the same genre. One of the best points about the game are the bossfights anyways, which you can't backstab/parry except for one. It can still use improvements, but i don't know if i would like a complete change of the system.

Also i like the sheer number of different weapons and playstyles.

You could always use a weapon which doesn't let you backstab/parry ;P

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BiscuitTrouser

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The crux of the matter comes down to this.

Dark souls experience hinges on its difficulty. So adding an easy mode has two options around it.

1. An easy mode is added and the game is still designed and expected to be played in hard mode since it really helps the core experience. Easy mode players will have a shit time but can learn to move up to hard.

2. An easy mode is added and the game is designed to make this easier play fit better into the core mechanics, difficulty is no longer built into the game. Hard mode players will have a shit time and cant really go anywhere.

So what option do we take? 1 seems the best. Its just that we arnt sure which one is accurate. Im HAPPY to have others have an experience. But if tacking on that experience detracts from mine and seriously changes the way the game is designed ill be a little annoyed since i cant have my same experience from the first games. At the end of the day though more things matter a lot more to me than this.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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lapan said:
I actually like Dark Souls Combat a lot compared to other games of the same genre. One of the best points about the game are the bossfights anyways, which you can't backstab/parry except for one. It can still use improvements, but i don't know if i would like a complete change of the system.

Also i like the sheer number of different weapons and playstyles.

You could always use a weapon which doesn't let you backstab/parry ;P
I don't hate the battle system of Dark Souls, it's just that it could use a lot of improvements. I gave up on backstabbing early on as it just made fights longer than they needed to be, all you have to do is block and use the light melee attack to defeat pretty much everything (outside of a select few times). I gave up on doing the riposte as well because it was just too risky to constantly do, it was great to pull off, but it was just safer to block and attack normally. The game's enemies should force you to used advanced combat mechanics like how Bayonetta forces to learn dodge offsetting if you actually want to get good at the game since the game slowly weans you off of depending on witch time to get through fights. I enjoyed Dark Souls for the atmosphere mainly. After beating the game, I looked back on it and I was just really disappointed at how unchallenged I was, which was the main reason I decided to play it. The boss fights weren't hard; the underground dragon fight was just me staying away and firing arrows at it (I was expecting some epic dragon fights and stuff, but it never happened). And the dungeons were easy to get through with patience. Hell, I didn't even get hit by one trap in Sen's Fortress and this is with no walkthrough whatsoever.
 

lapan

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Phoenixmgs said:
lapan said:
I actually like Dark Souls Combat a lot compared to other games of the same genre. One of the best points about the game are the bossfights anyways, which you can't backstab/parry except for one. It can still use improvements, but i don't know if i would like a complete change of the system.

Also i like the sheer number of different weapons and playstyles.

You could always use a weapon which doesn't let you backstab/parry ;P
I don't hate the battle system of Dark Souls, it's just that it could use a lot of improvements. I gave up on backstabbing early on as it just made fights longer than they needed to be, all you have to do is block and use the light melee attack to defeat pretty much everything (outside of a select few times). I gave up on doing the riposte as well because it was just too risky to constantly do, it was great to pull off, but it was just safer to block and attack normally. The game's enemies should force you to used advanced combat mechanics like how Bayonetta forces to learn dodge offsetting if you actually want to get good at the game since the game slowly weans you off of depending on witch time to get through fights. I enjoyed Dark Souls for the atmosphere mainly. After beating the game, I looked back on it and I was just really disappointed at how unchallenged I was, which was the main reason I decided to play it. The boss fights weren't hard; the underground dragon fight was just me staying away and firing arrows at it (I was expecting some epic dragon fights and stuff, but it never happened). And the dungeons were easy to get through with patience. Hell, I didn't even get hit by one trap in Sen's Fortress and this is with no walkthrough whatsoever.
The only challenging dragon battle is against Kalameet in the DLC. Gaping Dragon is really easy and predictable even in melee combat. You can cheese a lot of enemies with arrows actually if you know from where you have to attack. The most challenging way is probably if you play a light armored build and actually have to dodge. And yes, the game is really easy if you play carefully and learn the basic mechanics.

What could be improved upon is:

*) balance the different ways to play the game without reducing their number. Pyromancy needs to be stat based, it shouldn't be possible to snipe bosses from outside their encounters.
*) better hit detection. balance big weapons and enemy weapons so they can't hit through walls
*) buff fist weapons
*) nerf the stunlock on some weapons
*) make the backstab hitbox smaller so it is more balanced for the damage it provides
 

IronMit

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speaking of combat systems..did anyone like prince of persia warrior within combat system?

Me and this minion got into a counter match...where we started countering each others counter. It was awesome. Fighting againt 3 minions whilst a stronger minion is throwing knifes at you from a distance. Being backed into a corner and trying to vault other a minion or run up or along side a wall. That was some thoroughly enjoyable combat.

People are talking about the simplicity of the dark souls combat...it's an rpg...half of combat is leveling up, wearing the gear, equiping weapons and powers and then adapting your approach to the battle. The fact that a good amount of skill is also needed in combat is amazing
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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lapan said:
The most challenging way is probably if you play a light armored build and actually have to dodge.
That is how I played the game as I always prefer fast characters over slow characters. I died a lot at the start of the game because I thought I had to dodge attacks to be successful since I was wearing clothes (not armor) and using shields with very little weight (as I stayed under the 25% carry capacity so I could dodge as fast as possible). I didn't think I'd be able to block every attack with my character. Even with the light shields you could block EVERYTHING, boss attacks and all. The stamina fills back up real fast just as long as you lower your shield in-between enemy attacks.

IronMit said:
speaking of combat systems..did anyone like prince of persia warrior within combat system?

Me and this minion got into a counter match...where we started countering each others counter. It was awesome. Fighting againt 3 minions whilst a stronger minion is throwing knifes at you from a distance. Being backed into a corner and trying to vault other a minion or run up or along side a wall. That was some thoroughly enjoyable combat.

People are talking about the simplicity of the dark souls combat...it's an rpg...half of combat is leveling up, wearing the gear, equiping weapons and powers and then adapting your approach to the battle. The fact that a good amount of skill is also needed in combat is amazing
Gameplay-wise Prince of Persia Warrior Within was the best of the series, the level design was even awesome. However, everything else about the game sucked.

I disagree about Dark Souls, it isn't much of an RPG, it's about the combat first and foremost. I used the same equipment and gear throughout most of the game, I wore some ninja looking clothes the whole game because they looked the coolest (outside of a few areas where I put on stuff like poison and curse resistant clothing). You level up your sword so it does more damage because the enemies now have more health so in reality nothing really changes, you level up just to stay on an even playing field basically. I prefer RPGs to give you new abilities and skills over just better stats because that changes gameplay like say how in Borderlands your character plays totally different when fully leveled than they did at the start of the game.
 

lapan

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Phoenixmgs said:
lapan said:
The most challenging way is probably if you play a light armored build and actually have to dodge.
That is how I played the game as I always prefer fast characters over slow characters. I died a lot at the start of the game because I thought I had to dodge attacks to be successful since I was wearing clothes (not armor) and using shields with very little weight (as I stayed under the 25% carry capacity so I could dodge as fast as possible). I didn't think I'd be able to block every attack with my character. Even with the light shields you could block EVERYTHING, boss attacks and all. The stamina fills back up real fast just as long as you lower your shield in-between enemy attacks.
Probably not everything, fast combo attacks like those of Manus or Sanctuary Guardian can eat through stamina fast. Even some of the stronger single attacks of those bosses will probably hit through a light shield, but it depends on it's stability.