So, the Dark Souls Community are a bunch of uppity twats... supposedly?

[WWmelb]

My thoughts:


The issue is this. Dark Souls is supposed to be punishingly, soul-crushingly hard, that's the point of the game. Every little thing you learn, see, or progress through is supposed to be a massive effort. The reward is being able to see and do things very few people ever will (comparitively speaking) because simply put most will just not make it that far even if they try.

An easy mode makes it so anyone can pretty much waltz through the game and see everything, this makes the difficulty entirely optional, and reduces the value of having made it to a certain point because pretty much anyone would be able to. It goes from being a really difficult game, intended for a specific niche audience, to one where the only real reason to work at it, is if you want to gimp yourself.

I'll also say this much, one of the big arguements against people hating on casual gamers is that "there are plenty of games catering to the real gamers out there, so why should you care if they have theirs?". As time goes on this is becoming less and less the case, and what few titles ARE being directed at the ultra-hardcore crowd have casuals crying to have them reduced into casual accessible products as well.

Let's be honest, maybe "you" don't get whats wrong with "Options" ever after reading this, and that's fine. If your not part of the audience "Dark Souls" was created for, your not supposed to get it. At the end of the day you don't have to get it, as long as things stay the way they are because the intended audience DOES get it. For those that want easy modes and such there are legions of games, heck the overwhelming majority of games out there now even, so leave the handfull of serious gamer games alone.

I'll also be blunt, when people ask "why the hate on casuals" things like the Dark Souls contreversy are pretty much exactly why. The casual gamers, simply will not leave franchises alone, if they see something out there others are enjoying, they demand that it be dumbed down for casuals too. Given the amount of money to be made, they usually get it too. As a result whenever casuals show up on subjects like this, they tend to get brutalized for a reason, and as I said, the defense of serious, hardcore game series staying that way isn't something that needs to be justified. At this point if you don't understand the reasons, your not going to, but it doesn't matter because it wasn't supposed to be a game for you anyway.

For the most part I take the attitude that once there are enough games for casuals and hardcore players, and casuals learn to accept not everything should be a casual game, peace will reign. The biggest obstacle to this however is the gaming industry which cares less about happy niche audiences, than about making money. Less serious gamers means less serious games, and casuals getting anything they QQ about, so anger and flames reign in gaming forums where the two groups meet.

The guys who did "Dark Souls" get the whole mentality of a really serious, really hardcore, gamer that wants a fairly high end product (as opposed to some indie garbage like "I want to be the guy", which might be hard, but is a low grade product compared to even low-and mid budget professional games, never mind high end ones). The end result though is that publishers are still involved, and generally speaking the idea of "casual dark souls" is something that could very well have their eyes lighting up with dollar signs, after all, moving more units to casuals means more money, and technically a successful casual game could in theory double or triple the number of units moved even if every hardcore gamers was tu shun the series as a result... which pretty much means people who want products like this to remain what they are would get screwed again.

Needlessly making all of the pro easy mode people's point for them about the playerbase being elitist assholes.

this guy is NOT the norm of the dark souls community.

Anyway, this thread wasn't about whether an easy mode was a good idea or not. This was about the attitudes of people in those threads.

I love dark souls and demons souls just how they are. Mind you i fuckin suck at them and they take me a long time to get through. But i love them for it.

I suck at FPS Games. Real bad. I don't think they need to be changed to have a mode that helps me. In fact, with the easy modes in them being so easy, the game doesn't become enjoyable, it becomes batshit boring to me. So i just avoid them. With the exception of Bioshock, because the story was so damn good.

Anyways, let the devs do what the devs do. It is their baby. I don't even think "easy mode" will exist. More accessible, great! More peoples to invade or help!

Overall, on topic, the dark souls community have always been fantastic to me. Yeah greifers and what not, but all MP games have them. Got someone griefing you though, summon some others to come in and help you out for more vengeful fun, there are always plenty of us Sunbro's to help out even if some of us aren't really very good.

 

[RookwoodX]

Dark Souls has one of the best communities.

People bitching on random forums about another game isn't the Dark Souls community. Community is what is related to and ultimately culminates in game.

 

[Vigormortis]

I think the problem people have is that the people who will play the game on Easy-Mode will think that they had the actual DS experience when what they actually experienced was not what actual DS is like. This, in turn, would be problematic because those people that play the easy version will NOT think of their experience as not the actual one, they will speak of their experience as though it was "the" experience. As though that was the proper, canon, real game. This is what people who are fans of the way DS is have a problem with, the idea that people will speak of this easy made for more money alternative version of the game as though it was the proper one, potentially even eclipsing the actual version in the process...and if that were to happen, DS would indeed BECOME this easy-mode item as far as the common view is concerned, which would indeed spell the end for the series as it is currently.

You do realize, of course, that that is bullshit, right?

The series has survived just fine so far. And, the inclusion of an optional easy-mode won't ring the death knell for the series. If the so called "casuals", as so many of the die-hard Dark Souls fans like to call them, think the core Dark Souls experience is this lamented "easy-mode", then who cares? As long as the core fan base is still playing and enjoying the hard-mode(s), the series will be just fine.

Besides, a boost in game sales, even if for only one game, will help From Software craft even more Souls titles in the future. So really? It's a win/win for the "core fans". Even if the "dirty casuals" lose interest in the series.

I have to ask the Dark Souls fans out there that are bemoaning this "easy-mode" thing:
Why does it matter so God-damned much to you how someone else experiences the game? Why is it so crucial that every single person experiences the game in exactly the same way?

And before anyone answers, bare in mind that any argument you make instantly becomes null and void the moment you start talking about the immense breadth and variety of game-play and character build options in Dark Souls. You know, things that lend themselves to different play experiences.

Spoiler: Spoilered quote of Vegosiux's post

The reward is being able to see and do things very few people ever will (comparitively speaking) because simply put most will just not make it that far even if they try.

Got any numbers for that? I keep hearing about how it's a game designed to break most of the playerbase (except you, of course, because you're not like those other pussies), but I haven't once actually seen any relevant data to support that. So far it's just a myth if you ask me.

Let's be honest, maybe "you" don't get whats wrong with "Options" ever after reading this, and that's fine. If your not part of the audience "Dark Souls" was created for, your not supposed to get it.

Why is it that every time someone says "Let's be honest" they mean "I'm going to say something rude, and insinuate you're a liar if you disargee"?

so leave the handfull of serious gamer games alone.

Who's a "serious gamer"? What's a "serious gamer game"?

I'll also be blunt, when people ask "why the hate on casuals" things like the Dark Souls contreversy are pretty much exactly why.

Actually, I'll wager that "being an insecure socialy inept individual who hasn't accomplished much in life" is more "exactly why".

Also, Dark Souls controversy? What? I didn't know there was actually a controversy going on. 0.o

The casual gamers, simply will not leave franchises alone, if they see something out there others are enjoying, they demand that it be dumbed down for casuals too.

Who's "the casual gamers", by the way? A hive mind of some sort? Actually, let's consider this for a moment.

A gamer, say, me, sometimes likes an easy unwind type of game, but sometimes likes to be brutalized by the game. So what camp is this hypothetical gamer, say, me, in according to your little labels?

At this point if you don't understand the reasons, your not going to, but it doesn't matter because it wasn't supposed to be a game for you anyway.

Oh, I understand your reasons. I just think your reasons are full of shit and a lot more likely to provoke contempt than respect. You are not awesome just because you played Dark Souls. Really, you're not. Guess what? I played it too and I don't consider myself to be the Hercules of gaming for it. And my personal judgment is that it simply doesn't deserve the credit it gets. And here's the shocker: I didn't think it was too hard, because it isn't. I thought it was too boring and not worth my time. Easy or hard didn't even enter into the equation.

But hey, I didn't like DS, so I must be one of those filthy casuals who are desecrating the sanctity of tr00 gaming, therefore whatever I think is not only irrelevant, but pure heresy to be expunged, right?

which pretty much means people who want products like this to remain what they are would get screwed again.

Yeah, getting screwed over? It's called "life". If having my favorite game franchise "invaded" by the "unworthy rabble" was the worst of my problems and one really worth getting that excited over, I'd likely be a lot happier than I am...

But, I think you answered the OP's question quite well - complete with a demonstration.

Seriously, some people...

A-friggin-men. The only people asking to be coddled to in this whole affair are the die-hard fans, not the "casuals".

I swear to God, this whole debacle is getting ridiculous. Hell, the fact that it's even become a debacle is ludicrous. I've heard less whining from some Bioware fans over the poor ending of Mass Effect 3.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You know, Dota 2 has become one of my favorite games. It really has.

It's a brutal and hard, yet rewarding online experience. It's mildly hard to "learn" and immensely hard to master. Competing in the online arena against high-tier players is one hell of a test of skill, strategy, and tenacity.

Even so, if Valve wanted to add an optional "easy-mode", of sorts, to allow more (in some cases casual) players to get in on the fun, then I'd be all for it. And, in some ways, they've already done it with the varied difficulties of the bots, ranking tiers, and the Holiday modes.

You certainly wouldn't see me on some website forum bitching and moaning about how Valve has "dumbed the game down" or "destroyed the core experience so that those damn dirty casuals can play".

 

[Nomanslander]

Ther second your favorite game stops being something fun to do with your spare time, and becomes a club you use to bludgeon so-called "lesser" gamers, you've lost your right to be catered to.

I'm sorry, but who has done this? I don't remember that ever being said on this website.

That's the point I was trying to make in this thread (before it got derailed into another "no easy mode! vs. why not?" thread...lol).

People are putting words in our mouths. I've never made fun of anyone for not playing or beating DS. I haven't seen anyone actually do that in threads, yet people are imagining that we have.

If I could, I rather nip this in the bud before DS fans are totally labeled as such, and I can't go anywhere without feeling like I'm wearing a sign around my neck saying "elitist douchbag" just for liking this game.

 

[NiPah]

I find the people who complain about all the whining to be more annoying honestly, I have yet to see a thread (not saying there isn't one, just not enough to be noticeable to the average lurker) on why easy mode is destroying Dark Souls.
But holy shit I've seen 3-4 threads on "Why are these people complaining", the complainers of complainers have far surpased the original complainers' annoyingness.

So yes, all that said these annoying people constantly complaining about other people complaining are already annoying enough, no small feat that they would add name calling to their repertoire of annoyingness.

Now if only we can start a large enough group of people complaining about the complaining of complainers we can start a true infinate loop of annoyingness to vile that even celebrity gossip rags will quake with moral indignation.

 

[Erttheking]

Ther second your favorite game stops being something fun to do with your spare time, and becomes a club you use to bludgeon so-called "lesser" gamers, you've lost your right to be catered to.

I'm sorry, but who has done this? I don't remember that ever being said on this website.

That's the point I was trying to make in this thread (before it got derailed into another "no easy mode! vs. why not?" thread...lol).

People are putting words in our mouths. I've never made fun of anyone for not playing or beating DS. I haven't seen anyone actually do that in threads, yet people are imagining that we have.

If I could, I rather nip this in the bud before DS fans are totally labeled as such, and I can't go anywhere without feeling like I'm wearing a sign around my neck saying "elitist douchbag" just for liking this game.

Yeah no kidding, Dark Souls fans everywhere are being called elitist fanboys, and I get the feeling I will too because I'm just not 100% on board with the idea of an easy mode and making Dark Souls 2 more accessible, despite the fact that a lot of the complaints on this website are on how games are always dumbed down in order to appeal to wider audiences. This website makes me very confused sometimes.

 

[Vegosiux]

People are putting words in our mouths. I've never made fun of anyone for not playing or beating DS. I haven't seen anyone actually do that in threads, yet people are imagining that we have.

Yeh and then someone done went an' did it in this thread right here (to say nothing about his next post about how "the serious gamer" is typically intelligent way above average as opposed to "the filthy casual") [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.397443-So-the-Dark-Souls-Community-are-a-bunch-of-uppity-twats-supposedly?page=2#16218359], nuking your position from orbit. Which I, by the way, know the pain of, there's nothing worse than that kind of friendly fire when you're trying to make a point.

What's my point you ask? Well, my point is, no, I haven't been just "imagining" people acted like elitist douchebags towards me in case of this particular game. I've run into several people who think themselves "superior" for it, some of which were not even perfect strangers. Of course then, when the fact came out that I got fed up with it before the end and won't bother picking it up again the fun started with how my position is "very specific" and all kinds of careful diction, I was in part holding back laughter in part thinking "are you for real?"

Bottom line is - I'm sorry that you get likened to such people. Really, if you're a good sport about it and end up being tossed into the same bin with those who aren't, that sucks.

But don't you think that trying to write off the existance of such douchebags in the DS community as some kind of a collective hallucination or urban legend of the non-DS crowd is a bit of a stretch?

 

[Erttheking]

People are putting words in our mouths. I've never made fun of anyone for not playing or beating DS. I haven't seen anyone actually do that in threads, yet people are imagining that we have.

Yeh and then someone done went an' did it in this thread right here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.397443-So-the-Dark-Souls-Community-are-a-bunch-of-uppity-twats-supposedly?page=2#16218359], nuking your position from orbit. Which I, by the way, know the pain of, there's nothing worse than that kind of friendly fire when you're trying to make a point.

What's my point you ask? Well, my point is, no, I haven't been just "imagining" people acted like elitist douchebags towards me in case of this particular game. I've run into several people who think themselves "superior" for it, some of which were not even perfect strangers. Of course then the fun started with how my position is "very specific" and all that, was in part holding back laughter in part thinking "are you for real?"

Bottom line is - I'm sorry that you get likened to such people. Really, if you're a good sport about it and end up being tossed into the same bin with those who aren't, that sucks.

But don't you think that trying to write off the existance of such douchebags in the DS community as some kind of a collective hallucination or urban legend of the non-DS crowd is a bit of a stretch?

Yeah fair enough they exist, but the way some people talk about them on this website, you'd think that they were in the majority, not the minority. In fact, a lot of them act like ALL Dark Souls fans are like this. It really ticks me off when a couple of people go too far, and all of a sudden the entire fan base is just like them.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Every time I saw DS in the OP I thought you were talking about the Nintendo DS... Silly me.

Anyway. I don't want Dark Souls 2 to have an easy mode either.

That's not to say easy modes are bad, easy modes are important in games where challenge is secondary to the experience.
like most games out there.

But when Dark Souls comes along and makes punishing difficulty a core mechanic that needs to be respected.

 

[Erttheking]

Simply put a "serious" gamer is generally someone of above average intelligence, usually substantially so, who wants deep, fulfilling, and typically challenging gaming experiences. Someone who also generally considers gaming to be a big part of their life, to the point of it being a major hobby, taking up huge chunks of their time, as opposed to someone who "also" plays games as a casual thing.

You know, I'm trying to kill the stereotype that Dark Souls players think that they're better for liking the game. Can you please not embody it? Also that's a silly thing to think, not everyone has the time and resources to have the dedication to be "serious" gamers, not to mention that some people just don't freaking want to. It doesn't mean that people who are serious have "above average intelligence"

 

[Korten12]

People are putting words in our mouths. I've never made fun of anyone for not playing or beating DS. I haven't seen anyone actually do that in threads, yet people are imagining that we have.

Yeh and then someone done went an' did it in this thread right here (to say nothing about his next post about how "the serious gamer" is typically intelligent way above average as opposed to "the filthy casual") [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.397443-So-the-Dark-Souls-Community-are-a-bunch-of-uppity-twats-supposedly?page=2#16218359], nuking your position from orbit. Which I, by the way, know the pain of, there's nothing worse than that kind of friendly fire when you're trying to make a point.

What's my point you ask? Well, my point is, no, I haven't been just "imagining" people acted like elitist douchebags towards me in case of this particular game. I've run into several people who think themselves "superior" for it, some of which were not even perfect strangers. Of course then, when the fact came out that I got fed up with it before the end and won't bother picking it up again the fun started with how my position is "very specific" and all kinds of careful diction, I was in part holding back laughter in part thinking "are you for real?"

Bottom line is - I'm sorry that you get likened to such people. Really, if you're a good sport about it and end up being tossed into the same bin with those who aren't, that sucks.

But don't you think that trying to write off the existance of such douchebags in the DS community as some kind of a collective hallucination or urban legend of the non-DS crowd is a bit of a stretch?

Problem is people like you (and yes YOU. I have read your post) likened everyone to such people. In fact 99% of Pro-Easy Mode players likened everyone to the douchebags. They take one persons words and place them in all of them and when people try to defend it (saying that not all of them are like that) and then get called "elitists."

People seem to think it's good to use the words of the minority to support their claims. I saw a person from Africa with one arm, you know what? I am going to say that all people from Africa have one arm.

See how that makes no sense? You don't use one person to make the claim for ALL.

Currently as it is, Pro-Easy Mode players are doing exactly what the minority of Dark Souls players are doing just on the majority scale rather than the minority.

 

[Nomanslander]

But don't you think that trying to write off the existance of such douchebags in the DS community as some kind of a collective hallucination or urban legend of the non-DS crowd is a bit of a stretch?

I'd call it a mass collective hallucination when someone thinks all DS fans are that way. And from my observation, people generally sometimes think in extremes, it makes it easier to label people when there aren't exceptions. Hell, I've done it, everyone has done it at one point.

As for that poster, yeah, I agree that he did begin to ramble on about the typical casual and their level of intelligence. But then again, the general audience (which a lot of people associate as being the casuals) are themselves openly labeled as being... idiots. That's why people use words like "dumbing down" when a game is made for a casual audience. So if anything, that poster was basing his opinions on stereotypes himself.

I don't agree with that, but everyone has their opinions, and it's human nature to want to have a high opinion of one selves. Also, I didn't think he was that bad. There's a difference with someone having a high opinion of themselves while generalizing and someone blasting others directly to satisfy some insecurity ticking in the back of their heads. This guy is warmless. He was also making a lot of good points, so I won't go so far as to call him a villain just yet.

You want to meet someone that isn't warmless, go play a CoD match where high rank players calls you a "****** cocksucking noob" because he disapproves of your skills, even though you're playing decently on their team.

(not saying all CoD players or elitist twats like that, but... you get the point.)