So, the Dark Souls Community are a bunch of uppity twats... supposedly?

[Vegosiux]

Who's a "serious gamer"? What's a "serious gamer game"?

Who's "the casual gamers", by the way? A hive mind of some sort? ..

I rate your response roughly a 3 out of 10 on the "Troll O Meter", not that your likely to provoke a flame war with me despite your insults and tone, better have tried.

Here's the kicker: I was being dead serious. The moment "casual", "hardcore", "serious gaming" come up, I will always, without exception, request some definitions because I despise vague blanket statements with a burning, all-consuming passion.

That said cutting out all of the feeble attempts at provocation, contridictory statements (didn't like the game, but oh hey I beat it)

I said I played it. I did put the controller down before the end, yaknow. Cause, it couldn't keep me hooked. It'd be kind of hard for me to know I don't like it without at least having put some hours into it.

Some will like this, others will not, but that's pretty much how it is. I'm not trying to spruce up either side really.

Oh I'm sure you're not...

Simply put a "serious" gamer is generally someone of above average intelligence, usually substantially so

Welp. Not so sure anymore. See, as elaborate as you made your post, and as much time as you took to write it down, let's just say that having started off with this just makes the rest of it sound rather...I don't know, bland? Fabricated?

So I'll just leave you to your "substantially above average intellect" and humbly get out of your way. After all, you're too wise for me or something. Seriously, might just me being hard to impress as usual, but if someone has to indirectly make it a point how smart they are I generally don't go swooning.

 

[Pink Gregory]

I've got the complete reverse impression. Dark Souls players who are really into the game don't play it because it's hard, they play it because they find it interesting and challenging and it has a lot of implied backstory, missable content and is open to any playstyle you decide to adopt. The community has been practically universally helpful in my experience, hardly ever condescending, even to players having trouble with easier sections. They're willing to give time to help those who are willing to put effort in. I would go so far as to say the Dark Souls community is pretty much the most generally knowledgable, helpful community I've come across, possibly as a result of the game itself requiring a higher level of comprehension than other games. I've voiced my opposition to a more straightforward Souls game many times now, but one facet of that could be interpreted as elitist or superior - that a strong commmunity centred around a uniquely deep and challenging game doesn't want their game compromised for the benefit of those who weren't willing to put the effort in before - I find completely understandable.

Admittedly, occasionally you get pricks who've gone through the game on SL10 and just troll the f*** out of new players, but even they bow more often than not.

This, this ENTIRELY.

I've never really seen it as difficult, just different.

The whole 'Prepare to Die' angle isn't about difficulty, because dying is essentially a core mechanic of the game; I know a bunch of peoples on another (music) forum that absolutely love Dark Souls up to the plums, but none of them rag on about difficulty or 'filthy casuals'. In fact the only worry they have for DS2 are the comparisons made to Skyrim, which is understandable, but not down to 'difficulty'.

 

[Simmons 2.0]

Well, the question of difficulty is an interesting one.
There are some games where the whole fucking point of the game is to be extremely difficult, and to make the player's achievements feel that much more impressive.
On the other hand, fuck the whiny bitches who cry all day about 'heresy' and 'sacrilege'. Fuck 'em right between the eyes. Also fuck the goddamn scrublords crying about being treated poorly. FromSoft makes the game however the fuck they damn well please. It might be shit. It might be amazing. A nuclear war might eradicate the human race, and the game might never get made. So all sides can shut the fuck up. This whole fucking debate is retarded and I wish a happy new year to everyone involved.

this goes for mass effect 3 too. its a fantastic game. just like dark souls. GET.OVER.IT.YOU.WHINY.SODS

 

[Hagi]

I can actually get the complaints.

Not so much about the existence of an easy mode, but rather the development of one. Dark Souls catered to a niche, it was a game whose full development time and budget was spend on making it a great game for that niche.

If that time and money is now going to be spend implementing and balancing an easy mode then simple economics dictate that the normal mode will suffer for it. Every second or dollar a developer spends on the easy mode could have been spend on the normal mode.

Of course implementing an easy mode might convince investors to provide additional resources for the development of the game, thus increasing the resources available for the normal mode. But even so I think there's some use to the complaints to make the developers consider just how much they're going to spend on that easy mode.

But the idea that adding an easy mode has no impact on the normal mode is simply delusional. The easy mode will have a definite impact on the normal game. Enemies will have to be designed with mechanics simple enough for the easy mode, lest even more resources be spend developing separate enemies for both modes, and only half of the play-testing to ensure a smooth difficulty curve and game balance will be spend on a mode that Dark Soul's niche will never even see.

 

[Ryotknife]

wait...the dark soul community beings twats is related to the Easy Mode discussion? I thought they were twats because they love to grief people and ruin the game.

 

[Entitled]

I think, the problem with the recurring fandom-bashing, is that people take the fandoms' "elitist" stance too damn seriously, as if it would really be analogous to real life bigotry and discrimination.

It's not. IRL, bigotry is EVIL, it's something that ruins lives, and it leads to physically violent hate crimes by the thousands. Therefore, we should be absolutel intolerant against it, even in the form of subtle implications and "harmless" jokes, because they lead to something that's not harmless.

On the other hand, a video game elitist who feels smug about being a "better gamer" than others, really is harmless. Somehow pathetic, yes, and you shouldn't aspire to imitate them, but still, in the end, it's just one harmless case of arrogance. And many other gamers, who might simply happen to agree with their idea of game design, might still sound similar to them accidentally, and their comments don't logically lead to anything evil, or even pathetic.

I think, the problem is, that for some people, as soon as they hear certain trigger phrases such as "superior", or "hardcore", they rile themselves up into a stance about how themselves are the utterly friendly, tolerant, peace-loving egalitarians, and the enemy, the evil, hateful, bigotted, oppressive "hardcore" must be smashed with the Hammer of Righteousness, without any compromise, or tolerance of anything that sounds even remotely similar to their point.

Thus, now we are in a community where proving how egalitarian you are comes first, before talking rationally about some goddamn game you like. You can't just talk about how you are not convinced that an easy mode would be technically effective and atmospherically appropriate, without first going through the motions to prove how much you otherwise love casual gamers. You can't describe which old-scool niche genre you would like to see revived, without confirming truisms about how this is "just your personal opinion", and of course "every other genre has it's place as well", and you are "totally not building a casual-burning Death Ray in your basement".

TL;DR: Dark Souls fans just want their game to be a specific thing. Some of them might be twats, others may not. But the gaming communities that are attacking them are just doing it because they provide a convenient surface to practice their Righteous Fury Mode on.

 

[Starik20X6]

I can sort of see the point in the "it ruins the spirit of the series" argument, but I have to ask: how does it affect you, the hardcore Dark Souls player? You won't be using the easy mode, so it has as much effect on you as, let me see, oh yeah, nothing. If you aren't going to use the easy mode, the worst it can do is be an unused menu option. Oh what cruel fate, having a menu option you aren't going to choose.

See, the only people "missing the point" will be the people who do take the easy option. They're the ones who will be missing out on the true Dark Souls, not you. So you've got no reason to be upset, at all, by the addition of an easy mode that isn't for you, won't be used by you, and will have no effect on your playing of Dark Souls.

Unless of course you're one of those people who doesn't want other people playing with your toys, in which case, you're just an asshole.

 

[Broderick]

wait...the dark soul community beings twats is related to the Easy Mode discussion? I thought they were twats because they love to grief people and ruin the game.

I suppose that depends on who you talk to or encounter. There are as many "dickwraiths" as there are "sunbros" I would think. "Ruining the game" would totally depend on who you ask; twinked people invading you early game is not very fun, although I suppose some would say it is just part of the experience, even if it isn't a nice part. Although to get that twinked without using the box glitch requires quite a lot of effort on their part, so I figure they earned their kill.

As for the topic at hand, I would say that there are quite a lot of "uppity twats" on both sides. On the "pro easy side", many seem to not see that developing an easy mode would fundamentally change how the whole game is developed, as time and money goes into balancing and changing mechanics to make it more "accessible", as it were. If they(fromsoft) are able to do so without any negative effects on the "normal mode", I see no problems whatsoever. Some of the "pro hard" people on this forum are being a tad exclusionary, and blaming "filthy casuals" for the possible addition of a more streamlined experience. This exclusionary behavior is odd, considering the dark souls community for the most part, is very inclusionary.

Much of the behavior behind the actions of some isn't elitist(although some is, as to be expected). Many dark souls fan suggest that instead of making the game easier so you(a person who feels they cannot play the game at the current difficulty) can experience it, you should just take some time to get a little better at it. Most are about helping you get to that bar, so you can be here experiencing it with us. Many of us feel there are already many tools available for those who need help with the game(summoning, messages by players, equipment upgrades). Further "lowering the bar"(not necessarily a bad thing, but that depends on who you ask, and in what context) as it were, messes not only with the atmosphere of the game(dark world out to kill you), but also the pacing(people have beaten the game in about an hour without glitches in speedruns) and sense of accomplishment from overcoming a hard obstacle.

Even though both sides may never come to an agreement, I hope they start to learn and understand each others motivations and thought process behind their ideas. Thanks for reading, and feel free to add or refute anything I say, as long as it is civil. Happy new year all, and have a nice day.

 

[V8 Ninja]

The entire justification for Mass Effect fans hating the ME3 ending was because the ending was inconclusive, involved a Deus Ex Machina, and went against the rest of the game/trilogy (in tone and mechanically).

The entire justification for (the majority of) Dark Souls fans hating the idea of an easy mode added to the game is because they have no self-control and can't force themselves to trudge through the game on a harder difficulty.

One of these is more justifiable than the other. Can you tell which one is more justifiable?

 

[Entitled]

The entire justification for Mass Effect fans hating the ME3 ending was because the ending was inconclusive, involved a Deus Ex Machina, and went against the rest of the game/trilogy (in tone and mechanically).

The entire justification for (the majority of) Dark Souls fans hating the idea of an easy mode added to the game is because they have no self-control and can't force themselves to trudge through the game on a harder difficulty.

One of these is more justifiable than the other. Can you tell which one is more justifiable?

"A loaded question [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question] is a question which contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).
Aside from being an informal fallacy, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda."

 

[TheScientificIssole]

It's a piece of entertainment, not the holy grail of gaming. Let everyone get what they want, From gets more money and the sequel will therefore be even better.

I really do not understand, why people concern themselves with the experience of other people who affect them in no way. As long as I get my classic experience, I don't care about what some other guy does in his game.

Because it will hurt my view of the game! I love Dark Souls because it is its own game. It isn't hard, it's just different. Dark Souls isn't challenging, just thought-provoking, in a strategic/gameplay sense. It asks you to weigh risk and reward, to be observant, and to learn the rules. Not difficult. Different.
I want it to stay that way. I like the idea of Dark Souls 2, in the same way I like Artorias of the Abyss: More Dark Souls. I accept change through obvious improvement, not risk, or at least not this early in the franchise. An improvement of multiplayer and content: new covenants, new classes, new weapons, new weapon styles, maybe even a less vague plot, but changing the formula isn't the action to be taken right now.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

The entire justification for Mass Effect fans hating the ME3 ending was because the ending was inconclusive, involved a Deus Ex Machina, and went against the rest of the game/trilogy (in tone and mechanically).

The entire justification for (the majority of) Dark Souls fans hating the idea of an easy mode added to the game is because they have no self-control and can't force themselves to trudge through the game on a harder difficulty.

One of these is more justifiable than the other. Can you tell which one is more justifiable?

"A loaded question [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question] is a question which contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).
Aside from being an informal fallacy, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda."

1. Some further reading on the Wikipedia article about informal fallacies would show you a contradiction of your source.

2. It's not a loaded question anyway, as the actual question itself contains no questionable presuppositions. The problem with his/her argument lies with the two (or three, if you count the sentence that comes before the question) premises that precede the question.

I would suggest attacking those premises instead of getting hung up on the final sentence.

 

[Frank_Sinatra_]

Oh hey, another thread that will get derailed in four seconds to turn into "IT SHOULDN'T HAVE AN EASY MODE YOU FILTHY CASUAL" "YES IT SHOULD YOU SCUMBAG ELITIST"

Great work there. Another one of these is just what we need.

Maybe we should just get the devs to flip a coin on it.

Coin tosses are the best way to solve problems.

Bare Knuckle Cage Matches are much better.
Entertaining for everyone involved

 

[Kyber]

Some of the Dark Souls fans i have met have been pretty smug honestly. "Yeah i finished Dark Souls, it so good, Oh you didn't like it? It must have been too hard to you, not for me though, I'm a hardcore gamer *smug smug smug*"

 

[blackdwarf]

I do believe that a easier mode would destroy what dark souls is. Not because I can't handle the idea that that 'filthy casuals' get to experience the game without putting the same effort in it as the 'elite hardcore gamers', but more because I believe the difficulty is the card that carries this nicely made card house and without it, it would collapse. every mechanic is based on and useful because the game is hard. without the that incentive you would get all these things that are not worth the time so you would miss a lot of the game content.

sure, every community has its flaws and its idiots, but DS community always felt as one of the more decent.

 

[Windcaler]

The entire justification for Mass Effect fans hating the ME3 ending was because the ending was inconclusive, involved a Deus Ex Machina, and went against the rest of the game/trilogy (in tone and mechanically).

The entire justification for (the majority of) Dark Souls fans hating the idea of an easy mode added to the game is because they have no self-control and can't force themselves to trudge through the game on a harder difficulty.

One of these is more justifiable than the other. Can you tell which one is more justifiable?

Funny as the majority of the arguments from people that hated the mass effect endings I read was due to them not taking into account the choices each player made. As I understand it (didnt play ME3 myself, I boycotted it)the pick an ending room was exactly the opposite of what was promised to them

In the case of dark souls community you are also wrong. The majority of complaints are because the community feels an easy mode harms the game in one or multiple aspects. If the souls community had so little self control then the various challenge runs would not be nearly as popular as they are. People are constatly trying to think up and complete challenges which are basicly just ways to gimp yourself during a playthrough. You would not see the mass of people doing speed runs, doing base level runs, doing unarmed runs, doing unupgraded equipment runs, etc

Quite frankly Ive only ever been on the side of ME3 fans hating the ending because they were promised something and bioware didnt live up to that promise. If you're making the argument that you just didnt like the ending then Im sorry I dont agree with that, you werent promised an ending that you would like, you were promised one that would make use of your shepard's choices

In dark souls case it does promise incredible challenge and it delivers. An easy mode compromises that promise. That's yet another argument against an easy mode that I have yet to make.

 

[Patrick Buck]

I don't see the problem with giving the player the *OPTION* to do what they want.

Although if they do dumb down the game so it is less complicated for ALL players I'll be sad, but it's not the end of the world. I haven't even finished dark souls yet, I'm just working though it slowly, but I would say I like the game, it's great, and I completely agree it shouldn't be dumbed down for everyone, but if people have the option to, and you don't have to, how is it effecting YOUR expericence? In any way?

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Are we? Well that's nice to know.
Anyway, I think that the DS fans are actually pretty justified in wanting no easy mode, because the premise that adding an easy mode wouldn't affect the normal mode is absolute bollocks.

Spoiler: Here's why

The thing is, in DS, the difficulty comes from the mechanics of combat. You couldn't just scale all the damage down because it would barely make the game easier; you'd still have to properly learn to time attacks and parries perfectly. The only difference a change like that would make (to a new player like the ones this 'easy mode' is supposed to cater to) is that you'd just end up dying a bit slower. That's it. You'd still be screwed until you learned what you're doing.

So, in order to actually make the games noticeably easier, Fromsoft would have to either nerf everything hard enough to completely trivialise it, so you'd end up with essentially just a really shit version of Skyrim. Or they'd have to change the actual mechanics of combat significantly, which you'll notice is something that would completely fuck up the game.

They could probably come up with an easy mode that wouldn't do those things, but even then there's still a chance that Easy would end up eclipsing the normal mode further down the line, and the knock on effect would end up ruining the franchise.

Plus there's the fact that challenge is really the main draw of the gameplay. Other games want to tell a story or just be stress-free time wasters, but DS is about challenge. Take that away, and you've just got a fairly poor RPG with a vaguer story than most. Take out the challenge, and you've got a pointless game.

Plus there's the usual arguments about easy mode costing precious money and dev time to implement, even if it does end up being a simple scaling-down of enemy damage or something similar.

This is why DS players want people who aren't looking for challenge to stay away.

As for my experience with the community, its mostly pretty good. I've always tried to play it as a solo game, so I'm rarely in human form and rarely get invaded or bother to summon. I've figured out most things for myself, but when I do have a query, people on forums will always provide some worthwhile advice. Hell, even comments on DS lets-plays and walkthroughs and stuff tend to be more useful than usual youtube fare.

 

[RJ 17]

Here on the escapist, I pretty much had to endure over a year of whining and complaining that came from the Mass Effect fanbase which I am also a part of. Personally, I never felt the ending was that groundbreaking-ly bad to cause such an uproar.

Yay! Good to see another ME fan that didn't think the ending to ME3 was worthy of throwing your console through the tv and jumping through a 3rd story window!

OT: While I certainly wouldn't condone calling any group of fans a bunch of "whiny little twats", I can at least help describe the problem that non-DSers have with DSers.

First and foremost: it's the exact same as the situation with ME3. Just as the ending really didn't deserve the fan backlash that it got, so too does DS not deserve the fan backlash it's getting at the notion of an easy-mode getting tacked on to broaden the game's audience.

There in lies the key: broadening the game's audience. Everyone knows how soul-crushingly difficult Dark Souls is, it's a game that requires an obscene amount of tenacity and grit to struggle through and succeed at. Truly, it really is a badge of honor to be able to say "I Survived Dark Souls!" as a gamer. However, by definition, such a game can only be enjoyed by an elite few. And it's this fact that has bred an elitist mentality in the people that play Dark Souls, because that's the only possible reason they could be upset about the notion of an easy mode being tacked on to the sequel.

Everything the original fans want and crave, everything they love about the game will still be there, it's not going anywhere (from what I've heard thus far). Sooooooooo what's the problem? Everything you want in the game is still going to be available to you, but now the people who "can't pass the test" also get to enjoy all the work and effort the developers put into making the game. Needless to say this broadens the audience and allows for more sales which could, in the long run, lead to more DS sequels and such.

The only reason that current DS fans have to complain is all of a sudden their exclusive club of people able to conquer DS won't be nearly as exclusive. They can still play the game on hard mode, have their bodies and souls crushed 10,000 times over. They'll still be able to be proud of themselves for NOT taking the easy way out, for playing the game as it was originally intended.

Really I've yet to hear a good, valid explination as to why adding in an Easy Mode while the original difficulty is still offered for those who want it is a bad thing. I understand the passion behind the fanbase and I respect that in them. But just like with the ending to ME3, this REALLY isn't something to get upset over. I don't begrudge the complaints or consider them "whiny", but to others they appear as elitists complaining that they'll be losing part of what makes them elite....when in truth that part (DS with regular, brutal difficulty) will still be available to them.

In short: that's why people are complaining about the complaints of the DS fans. To everyone else it comes across as being elitist, since there really is no reason for them to be complaining seeing as how the standard difficulty for which the series is known for will still be available to them. They've lost absolutely nothing except that DS will no longer be nearly as exclusive as it used to be.