So then... 'bout those torrents?

[azadiscool]

As we now know, that defense didn't work for the gentlemen... of course, taunting the prosecution in your trial on the front page of your website for over a year probably didn't help either.

I don't know how the Swedish court works, but in the USA court system whether they taunted the prosecution or not isn't allowed to be taken into consideration when it comes to whether they are to be punished or not. Unless, that is, the prosecution presses charges for the insulting. Which would be an uber fail in my book.

 

[Lovelocke]

Pretty much. I often use Torrents as a way of getting TV show episodes I would never be able to watch in Poland, or download stuff I already own. Or get patches/free programs.

Downloading TV shows would be illegal, and even "downloading stuff/movies/games" you already own is actually considered illegal as well: Most people believe since they bought a copy, it entitles them to have a backup (just in case) but that's not so... the movie/game/whatever is not yours, and so you're never allowed to duplicate it for any reason.

The wordplay on it? You pay for a *license* to use/install it for yourself... anything else would require ye olde express written consent and so on. Additionally, "transmission of copyrighted material" is illegal regardless of how much, if any, you spent on it.

Thing is, there is no "safe harbor" for this kind of stuff... it's very tricky to say the least, and there are tons of ways to fall into legality quarrels unknowingly. TPB's defense of "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" while pointing a finger less than inch away from the RIAA/MPAA's right eyeball has shown you can't feign ignorance... fact is, if you didn't create it, you probably don't own the rights to it and therefore aren't entitled to much more than a free demo, since it carries express consent to be distributed as written in it's license (that long brick of text you hit ACCEPT on instead of reading?)

 

[antipunt]

of course torrents aren't illegal.

 

[Lovelocke]

I don't know how the Swedish court works, but in the USA court system whether they taunted the prosecution or not isn't allowed to be taken into consideration when it comes to whether they are to be punished or not. Unless, that is, the prosecution presses charges for the insulting. Which would be an uber fail in my book.

Oh hey! Pardon the double post, but I saw this after I wrote my previous reply.

You're right, but at the same time, the whole "Anything you say can and will be used against you" thing applies in a few courts around the world, if not all of them. For example, you are put on the stand, testify that you're innocent, and then get on CNN that evening and provide turn-by-turn directions and photos where the bodies are buried, you bet your ass you wouldn't be sleeping at home that night.

The taunting itself probably isn't a crime, but it does shine a spotlight on something you were hoping to conceal, especially during a court trial that ended up costing the guys as much as it did. I know it's a diminutive amount compared to what it would cost to, say, produce a major Hollywood film, but that kind of money sufficiently wipes out any life plans they may have previously had should it stick.

I know that if I were in court for something like that, I would be as straight faced and to-the-point as possible, cooperating fully with authorities while simultaneously maintaining my own defense. The laws of [Your Country Here] are created and ratified by people who probably don't share your same upbringing, let alone sense of humor or justice... meaning, they don't care about what you think, they care about what you did, what they can prove... and if they can prove that X amount of fodder you've said equals to ONE confession, they will submit it as evidence, which you would then have to disprove or account for.

 

[Abedeus]

Pretty much. I often use Torrents as a way of getting TV show episodes I would never be able to watch in Poland, or download stuff I already own. Or get patches/free programs.

Downloading TV shows would be illegal, and even "downloading stuff/movies/games" you already own is actually considered illegal as well: Most people believe since they bought a copy, it entitles them to have a backup (just in case) but that's not so... the movie/game/whatever is not yours, and so you're never allowed to duplicate it for any reason.

The wordplay on it? You pay for a *license* to use/install it for yourself... anything else would require ye olde express written consent and so on. Additionally, "transmission of copyrighted material" is illegal regardless of how much, if any, you spent on it.

Thing is, there is no "safe harbor" for this kind of stuff... it's very tricky to say the least, and there are tons of ways to fall into legality quarrels unknowingly. TPB's defense of "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" while pointing a finger less than inch away from the RIAA/MPAA's right eyeball has shown you can't feign ignorance... fact is, if you didn't create it, you probably don't own the rights to it and therefore aren't entitled to much more than a free demo, since it carries express consent to be distributed as written in it's license (that long brick of text you hit ACCEPT on instead of reading?)

I agree, but look at it this way:

You can only accept that license AFTER you buy. And that's stupid. That's like buying a building, before you even see it, the quality of it and so on. It's, how the Polish saying goes, "buying a cat in a bag". You have no idea what that cat will be.

They might as well put a paragraph saying that "if you accept this contract, you are required to pay us $30 a month" or "you can only play at weekends". You don't agree? You waste $50.

 

[McClaud]

"Even if Torrents are made to be illegal, other methods to pirate software will surface."

Damn right, and when it does I'll be there.

What the RIAA and law enforcement don't seem to be understanding is that if they'd not bust the people who facilitate peer to peer, they'd catch a lot more people faster.

But no, they'll keep shutting down various avenues, which causes us to use new ones that are harder to track. Eventually, the people sharing files are going to outsmart the law and then the government/RIAA will say, "Well, fuck. It was so easy to track people via torrents sharing illegal files. I wish they'd go back to that."

But that's how those ignorant of how the Internet really operates are - they try to plug growing leaks in the dam with their fingers until they run out of fingers. Sooner or later, it's going to be pointless and too expensive to do so.

 

[wwjdftw]

I shall write to Obama immediately!

No, no, that just won't do...
We must share our brilliance with the world, not just America!

The plan to take over the world is back on, ladies and gentlemen!

Aye.
Shall we start with Canada?
It has nice positioning, we can go down to America when ready, and we can get to Russia easily.

I was thinking Greenland. But you're right, Canada will do fine. We'll have plenty of room to amass an army/build more pylons.

You fools! Canada won't do at all. We need more than maple syrup and hockey sticks to accomplish our goals... We need MINIONS! I agree that Canada has much resources and land, but without an insane number of troops our plans shall not be feasible.

To be serious: don't pirate stuff actively being sold, and you won't cause much fuss. For instance, you can't really find GB/N64 titles on sale anymore... Not that I actively support piracy of any flavor, but if it won't make the developers any money anymore, then I don't care.

WE CAN USE THE MONEY FROM OUR PIRATED GOODS TO FUND OUR TAKE OVER

 

[smallharmlesskitten]

Torrents themselves aren't illegal... it's the things they may be used for. A torrent for a movie that someone made and is making no money off of (like indie movies and the like) is fine. A torrent for a movie like Iron Man or Changeling is illegal.

Yeah... I think your okay with DL'ing Ironman
*cough*

 

[Lovelocke]

Second of all, if you're going to attack a company for aiding in providing a connection in which illegal transmissions took place... the phone company would very much like to tell you to stop being so mean to them.

You can dismiss it as "(that didn't work)," but the unfortunate truth is that what was applied to get this already dubious conviction, was a standard that was extra-legal (meaning it was an illegal standard).

This is true as well, but I somehow feel as though you're under the impression that I *agree* with the findings of the trial... which I firmly don't. Problem is, in this debate, the legality of certain things have been "proven", which until further legal investigation makes them "fact" in the interim.

In other words, legally speaking, anything we say from here on... speculation included... has to operate around the idea that "TPB's Owners/Operators have been found guilty for simply having a site that indexed .torrent files". The Pirate Bay's got servers in Belgium and Russia and one other country I believe, and so, those respective nations have to find enough probably cause to run in and seize the actual hardware.

Anyway, I'm not dismissing TPB's defense, but now that the trial's "in the books" so to speak, we can't really treat it as anything more than irrelevant in present discussion... at least until new hearings begin.

 

[sneak_copter]

Here's the bigger question: Do I care.

MmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmNO.
Who cares if it's against the law? Laws are pointless.

Yeah. Especially laws such as "Don't Kill People." That's just stupid.

 

[Lovelocke]

Because if that is the legal standard applied, there is a great deal of material The Escapist is transmitting, that could easily make them a target.

The Escapist isn't quite the same as The Pirate Bay though... The Escapist relies on Fair Use. Everyone's heard of Super Mario, and so, talking about it or showing pics of it isn't seen as being on the same level as "directly providing a way to obtain full copies of the software they review/exhibit".

As a matter of fact, looking at the Red Faction tower ads on the side of the page these days, I'd surmise that they are being *paid* to show off the goods in some cases... I believe TPB does not/has not, but did make cash based on merchandise sales and ad space as well.

 

[Inverse Skies]

They can be legal or illegal, depends on which data they link too, but the hosting of them has shown to be an illegal offence when the link to illegal data so in that sense they would be almost exclusively illegal and a potential threat to have on any site.

 

[Lovelocke]

I remember years ago I had a little ROMs site hosted on Tripod or something... had about 50 NES roms on it (ones I considered to be the ones most people would want). We had the usual disclaimers on it, things that we believed (at the time) was our legal safe harbor: Games are not for sale at present, haven't been for a time, the system they're on has been officially discontinued, etc... the same kinda thing "Abandonware" sites got going for them.

Now that retro's coming into greater fashion, it seems even transmitting outdated software, while still copyrighted, is still a negatory.

Copyright stuff recently got even more complicated with the addition of "Mickey Mouse Protection Act": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

Under this Act, additional works made in 1923 or afterwards that were still copyrighted in 1998 will not enter the public domain until 2019 or afterward (depending on the date of the product) unless the owner of the copyright releases them into the public domain prior to that or if the copyright gets extended again.

Reason why it got the nickname of Mickey Mouse? Because Disney's biggest character of all time was due to become PUBLIC DOMAIN... and of course, Disney being the fledgling independent studio that they are, just can't bare the financial strain of losing Mickey Mouse for people to use for free.

 

[Lovelocke]

The Pirate Bay relied on the same legal protections as the phone book to insure it could not be sued.

That's kind of a stretch though... a Phone Book wouldn't, say, provide you free pizzas from Pizza Hut or free movies from Blockbuster if you "used it". If clicking "Red Faction.torrent" on The Pirate Bay took you to Red Faction's site, where you could then *buy* the game, that would be more "protected" than what they actually did.

Seriously... I've posted several torrents on The Pirate Bay and have downloaded numerous more. I've never paid for an Operating System in my *life*... DOS, WIN95, 98, XP and now Vista. That said, I'm also inclined to believe in the reality of things... I wouldn't pretend that all of that was *LEGAL* just because TPB didn't actually *host* the software, and I think that's the unintended fallout of the ruling that marks "the beginning of the end" of the torrent era... when the "biggest of them all" gets caught.