Someone defend the other side of this American argument.
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Erm... so?BonsaiK said:
That's conquering, not immigrating. Slight difference there: the difference being that conquerors get to pick what language they want.
EDIT: Bad wording that: rather, the conquerors of a place pretty much get to reshape said place from the ground up to be whatever they feel like. I don't mind if someone can speak a foreign language when they come over: I'd just like for them to be able to speak elementary English as well.
3rd rung said:
There is something called ESOL in America. It stands for English for Speakers of Other Languages and is a government program specifically designed to help immigrants of many nationalities learn conversational English. It is free of charge for anyone who meets the qualifications (these are quite generous and primarily consist of proving you are a legal immigrant). Almost every school offers these courses and most (if not all) are open to the public, not just students of that school.Furburt said:
Even ruling that out; I don't think everyone is asking that they master the English language (and all its moronic grammar problems), just that they make an effort to be able to communicate reasonably. You don't need a professional teacher to get to that level.
I knew a woman at my last job that had been in this country for over 10 years and still knew almost no English. I don't care who you are; when you are in a country where the majority speak English, you work with people that speak English, and raise a child that speaks English (which she did) you have to try not to lean at least a fair amount of that language.
I don't know if it's the majority or not but it certainly isn't rare either and in my opinion it's offensive, disrespectful, and down right rude.
I kind of agree.
It is important to learn the language and respect the culture when you immigrate to another country. Before you all start flaming me, I immigrated to Japan and in order to have a sucessul life here, I learned Japanese and now I am more or less fluent in the language. I have a research job here and I could not imagine my life here without Japanese knowledge.
I cannot stress the importance of learning the language, culture and laws before attempting to make a life here. Life is expensive here and without at least a University degree you are not going to do well. Prison is full of non-Japanese people who came to live here, fell into hard times, started selling drugs and now have at least 10 years in prison. You will get 10 years here for even the pettiest of drug offenses. The sad thing is that if they knew the language, culture, and court system, their sentances would be much less.
I can imagine that the same is anywhere. Immigration is difficult because you are competing with natives, especially when the language is different. It is all too easy to fall into crime or poverty.
However, on the other hand, I do not think that the widespread use of English excuses native English speakers from ever learning another language.
I also think that you should not judge people who cannot speak English too harshly. What is the saying, `Everyone looks for the cry of a bird, but no-one weeps at the blood of a fish, blessed are those who have voices`. Not everyone has the same educational benefits and not being able to speak the lingua franca is a kind of voicelessness. The poor guy just probably wants to give his four year old a better chance than he got.
It is important to learn the language and respect the culture when you immigrate to another country. Before you all start flaming me, I immigrated to Japan and in order to have a sucessul life here, I learned Japanese and now I am more or less fluent in the language. I have a research job here and I could not imagine my life here without Japanese knowledge.
I cannot stress the importance of learning the language, culture and laws before attempting to make a life here. Life is expensive here and without at least a University degree you are not going to do well. Prison is full of non-Japanese people who came to live here, fell into hard times, started selling drugs and now have at least 10 years in prison. You will get 10 years here for even the pettiest of drug offenses. The sad thing is that if they knew the language, culture, and court system, their sentances would be much less.
I can imagine that the same is anywhere. Immigration is difficult because you are competing with natives, especially when the language is different. It is all too easy to fall into crime or poverty.
However, on the other hand, I do not think that the widespread use of English excuses native English speakers from ever learning another language.
I also think that you should not judge people who cannot speak English too harshly. What is the saying, `Everyone looks for the cry of a bird, but no-one weeps at the blood of a fish, blessed are those who have voices`. Not everyone has the same educational benefits and not being able to speak the lingua franca is a kind of voicelessness. The poor guy just probably wants to give his four year old a better chance than he got.
But if they all learned English, then the people in this thread would have to find someone else over whom to proclaim your scorn and unquestioned superiority. Of course, no one ever seems to find that difficult. Hell, it's nearly a competitive sport around here.
And how do you know that they are not making an effort?
And how do you know that they are not making an effort?
It's not like he demanded you speak spanish. He simply asked if you could, and so he asked his daughter to translate. If i went to France the first thing i would ask in my abominable accent is if the person spoke English, simply because it's easier for me to make myself understood. Since there was a translator around everything worked out in the end so why does it matter?
Well, this has gone off-topic very quickly, but fine, I'll answer this.BonsaiK said:
If a country were to take over the USA, and forced us to learn their language, would I like it? No, not really: but that's just the way conquest works. The winner writes the rules. You don't like it, then start a revolution.
Well, of course it's more reasonable to move somewhere and not learn the language in comparison to conquering the place: but the settlers weren't exactly concerned with "moving" to North America. As far as they were concerned, the land was theirs by right, and anyone on it was to be removed.Cheeze_Pavilion said:
This whole settlers thing can't even be compared to the situation nowadays (they're two entirely different situations), so I don't even know why it was brought up to begin with.
I more or less agree with the OP. If you choose to move to a country whose primary language is different than your native tongue, it is simply common sense that you should do all you can to learn and speak that language. If you are not willing to do this you probably should not consider moving internationally. However, I don't believe this to be the root of the problem.
I believe the problems essentially stems from our capitalist system. A dollar acquired from a spanish speaking person or an english speaking person is still a dollar. Companies realize this and since the surge of hispanic migration began they have gradually increased their efforts to accommodate the spanish speaking community. As convenient as this is for hispanic immigrants, it tends to inconvenience everyone else.
As far as english being a difficult language to learn, that is no excuse. ANY new language is hard to learn, that is not the issue here. The problem is that a large portion of hispanic immigrants (and this is pretty much true for immigrants from most countries these days) tend to live around, marry, and pretty much only associate with other hispanics. They essentially create a "little mexico" here in the usa which makes assimilating into another culture much more difficult.
I believe the problems essentially stems from our capitalist system. A dollar acquired from a spanish speaking person or an english speaking person is still a dollar. Companies realize this and since the surge of hispanic migration began they have gradually increased their efforts to accommodate the spanish speaking community. As convenient as this is for hispanic immigrants, it tends to inconvenience everyone else.
As far as english being a difficult language to learn, that is no excuse. ANY new language is hard to learn, that is not the issue here. The problem is that a large portion of hispanic immigrants (and this is pretty much true for immigrants from most countries these days) tend to live around, marry, and pretty much only associate with other hispanics. They essentially create a "little mexico" here in the usa which makes assimilating into another culture much more difficult.
America doesn't have a language.
Let me say this again. There is now official American Lanuage.
Wait, one more time for emphasis!
AMERICA DOES NOT HAVE A NATIONAL LANGUAGE.
We speak English because the English speakers chased the Germans speakers out during two world wars. There are still places where people speak forms of German.
That said, get over yourselves! it's a language! God forbid you should be able to talk to your neighbor. Speaking English isn't a prerequisite of being an American. It's not in the constitution, it doesn't have anything to do with freedom and justice and all that jazz.
Let me say this again. There is now official American Lanuage.
Wait, one more time for emphasis!
AMERICA DOES NOT HAVE A NATIONAL LANGUAGE.
We speak English because the English speakers chased the Germans speakers out during two world wars. There are still places where people speak forms of German.
That said, get over yourselves! it's a language! God forbid you should be able to talk to your neighbor. Speaking English isn't a prerequisite of being an American. It's not in the constitution, it doesn't have anything to do with freedom and justice and all that jazz.
The winner (America) has written rules stating that you, as American citizens, live in a country where freedom and liberty is considered sacred. That includes the freedom and liberty of speaking whatever the hell language you want. There isn't anything on the Statue Of Liberty saying "speak our language or get lost". Instead it says "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore; Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" which is a pro-immigartion, pro-tolerance, pro-freedom message if ever I heard one.scotth266 said:
Xbowhyena said:
Hurray for you, your read at a 12.9 reading level while in 4th grade. English seems to be yoru only language, am I wrong. Its also seems to be the language that you were born into. Having that high of a score considering that it seems to be the only language you know isnt saying much.
I had a 12.9 reading level by 5th grade and english is my second language. The issue with english is that who its structured very differently than the romantic languages are. There also the issue of its nonsensical spelling and its patchwork or barrowed and missused words.
Yeah, it is. What does that have anything to do with my viewpoint? Once again, I'm fine with people coming over with another language as their dominant one: but I would like for them to at least be able to hold a conversation with the majority of the population.BonsaiK said:
That's assuming that the people conquering you care about such things. The settlers did not. But this is quickly straying into the subject matter for another thread.Cheeze_Pavilion said:
Anyway, while the idea that English-speakers was here first is flawed, the idea that a basic knowledge of English is necessary to succeed in America is not. Getting people to at least conversational levels of English provides them with far greater opportunities in their new lives here. It's not racist or imposing to ask that much: if anything, it's attempting to give them important tools for survival.