Sony, Pre-owned games and DRM

[vato_loco]

"This is an important initiative as it allows us to accelerate our commitment to enhancing premium online services across our first party game portfolio," said Sony in a statement.

Dear Sony,

Stop treating your consumers like fucking idiots and just come out and say the truth: you want money from the used sales game business. There's nothing wrong with that, you're a corporation, you want money. But don't try to say that this is about us gamers and enhancing your portfolio. We're not dumb, nor do we like being lied to.

Sincerely,

A Sony fan.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

-Holy wall of text, batman!

In order of your points:
1) No, but it is a good chance for them to hop onto the IP now. I bought Mass Effect used about a year ago. I liked it so much that I got Mass Effect 2. NEW. And I have all the DLC. I let the first one to a friend. He did the same. And that was through secondhand playing!

I just got Gears of War 1 used for the 360 because I want to try it out. If I like it, I will try out 2. If I like that, I will be getting 3. NEW when it comes out. It also helps that Cliffy B has defended used sales in the past. People argue piracy may help sales because people who "weren't going to buy it anyways" get a chance to try it and then pay the devs. As stupid as I think this may be, the argument is that people can try out new IPs and then hop onto a franchise is the next logical step.

At least I'm paying someone, rather than fithy pirates

2) There still is at those few record stores still around.

3) Gamestop, acorrding to wikipeida, has existed since 1984. If they didn't manage to kill off a dev or publisher with their used sales by now, I doubt they will. The guys who made Crackdown complained about Gamestop sales but didn't go under untill APB bombed.

Buying used games =/= piracy. Please, get your head examined!

I did not say it was. Only that if the impetus for fighting piracy is the minimization of loss to the lawful owner of the IP, then used games should be held to the same standard and IP holders should not be penalized for approaching it in the same fashion.

There is one small problem which makes your arguement completely illogical and a load of fucking shit. When you go to the store and pay for a game you buy that disk. It belongs to you 100% and you can do whatever the hell you want with it. You can not deny that fact.

This means that you have the right to do whatever you want with it. You can play the game on it, use it as a coaster, a dog toy, or if you want to sell it to somebody else.

Did you know that if you buy a game from gamestop you are not buying it from the publisher. They do not see a single penny from you purchasing that game. Gamestop gets 100% of the money that you paid. Do you want to know when the publisher got paid? Two weeks ago when that game got delivered to the store. Your arguement does not only apply to the used game market but also to anybody who is not the publisher.

But don't you see mannnnn, the publishers need money! It's those evil developers who are taking them for all their worth. And Gamestop kicks kittens!

/kidding

I know we have disagreed in the past, but you hit the nail on the head wit this one.

I don't mind things like Project $10 for single player games, but for online games? One person can only be playing at a time online. It takes up the same amout of server space. Things like this are simply a cash grab.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

But anyway, what's your stance on pre-owned games Escapist?

All in favor of them.

At least in the states, we have The First Sale Doctrine which protects those who wish to resell goods they have.

Secondly, we?ve had a used market for all forms of media (Books, movies, ect), and those industries are still around.

Finally, it?s the only way to get some games. Some games are just simply not available new anymore

ah sand, we have something we agree on completely!


OT: i understand sony/developers want some of that phat cash i shelled out to get the game, however it is a used product, and just like any other used product, that shit don't fly and the original distributor doesn't keep banking off of it.

 

[Timmibal]

At least I'm paying someone, rather than fithy pirates

It might seem like an inane argument, but what's the point of paying someone, if you're not paying the person who is responsible for making it? You may as well just pay a bootlegger for all the benefit it provides to the industry.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

At least I'm paying someone, rather than fithy pirates

It might seem like an inane argument, but what's the point of paying someone, if you're not paying the person who is responsible for making it? You may as well just pay a bootlegger for all the benefit it provides to the industry.

That was moreso a jab at piracy, rather than an argument.

And hey, when I trade in games, I put them towards other games, often new ones. Again, that's a good way to have people hop onto your IP and it puts money into the system.


I find it rather funny that these forums defend pirates but decry Gamestop for used sales. All the arguments that defend piracy(Or at least all the ones I've seen) can be used to defend used sales.

I ask you this: If you are upset with a game and feel cheated, do you feel as though you should be stuck with an item? Or should you have every right to try get some of your money back from it? Because some devs and publishers want you to keep it forever. And then, along that train of though, shouldn't those who give you some of your money back for it be allowed to get money off of it?

 

[Chibz]

It might seem like an inane argument, but what's the point of paying someone, if you're not paying the person who is responsible for making it? You may as well just pay a bootlegger for all the benefit it provides to the industry.

But used game sales can quite easily lead directly to new game sales. If I didn't accidentally buy Disgaea: Hour of Darkness (Instead of the game I actually intended to buy...) I wouldn't have bought any of the NIS games I did after that, new.

If I didn't borrow my friend's copy of Earth Defense Force 2017 (that he bought used...) I wouldn't have bought Insect Armageddon. And if HE didn't buy it used, he likely wouldn't have either.

Also, a bootleg copy isn't really comparable. As it's not a legally purchased copy of the game at all...

Most people I know that argue against used sales at all are PC gamers. Why is this? Could this be because actually owning a game they buy is utterly alien to them? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software)]

 

[Epona]

At least I'm paying someone, rather than fithy pirates

It might seem like an inane argument, but what's the point of paying someone, if you're not paying the person who is responsible for making it? You may as well just pay a bootlegger for all the benefit it provides to the industry.

This is where the buying used games = piracy becomes so dangerous.

You won't stop people from buying used products but you will elevate piracy and theft to the morally acceptable level of buying used.

You aren't doing your side any favors with this argument.

 

[Arizona Kyle]

But anyway, what's your stance on pre-owned games Escapist?

All in favor of them.

At least in the states, we have The First Sale Doctrine which protects those who wish to resell goods they have.

Secondly, we?ve had a used market for all forms of media (Books, movies, ect), and those industries are still around.

Finally, it?s the only way to get some games. Some games are just simply not available new anymore

However it does not take 3-5 Million dollars to make those (except movies and maybe some music)

Books can be writen and sold at such a fast rate that it doesnt matter that the books dont matter as much about the used book market

Movies are a double threat we all pay to see them when they are in movie theaters then buy them when they come out on DVD or stream them or some other crap

Art.... not alot to say to them there really isnt that huge of a used art market but... dont take my word for that as i really dont know much about it

Music is something else really they have DVD's, CD's, Live CD's, Concerts, Posters, Music Video's, ect the list does go on and while the artist may not make the most money from it (compaired to what the companys that produce them make)

 

[Madman123456]

Ok, a little portion of the money i poor into new games will go to development and implementation of new DRM. Another Portion of the money will go to the effort of making my product worth less when i resell it.

An active Effort to make my Game that i have bought worth less because of the missing online component. That's like if you buy a new car and the company that built it will switch off some of the functionality when you resell it. Maybe the GPS will go out and you can't buy a new gps because the car will scramble the signal or something.
That'd be ridiculous.

Enough with the analogy; Why is it that used games are so frowned upon? I drive a used Car and i have never ever seen anyone telling me that People should buy new cars instead because used cars will not the the "developer" of that car any money.

 

[Savagezion]

At least I'm paying someone, rather than fithy pirates

It might seem like an inane argument, but what's the point of paying someone, if you're not paying the person who is responsible for making it? You may as well just pay a bootlegger for all the benefit it provides to the industry.

Sorry, not true. You are paying to a major distributing outlet who does millions of dollars of business with the industry as a vendor. It trickles back. It is possible I may have fallen out of gaming if used sales didn't exist. Last generation, I was behind as I got a Xbox for $100 a year before this generation released. I only had $20 in my pocket when I went into Gamestop and there were titles I wanted but didn't have the money for. So I bought games people had been talking about for years to stay semi-relevant on the industry. I was buying used games that were between $5-15 for a year and it sucked because I couldn't afford the good games. Had I not had that opportunity to buy used games, maybe I my interest in games would have waned in favor of learning more on my guitar, or maybe I would have gotten back into baseball (most likely), or comics, etc. But I stuck it out with used games and when things turned around I got a new PC and PS3 on release so I could finally get caught up and current. That would have been a loss of over $2000 in sales on Sony's and many publisher's part. I am probably not the only story like this. It does trickle back due to our habitual nature. No one is going to completely sponge off of used games forever. Eventually, the temptation of the newest stuff is going to get them. It may wax and wane but it is better than risking losing sales for good due to almost EVERY other hobby is cheaper than this one.

Should the industry really be so harsh as to exile those who cannot afford to buy everything brand new?

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

But anyway, what's your stance on pre-owned games Escapist?

All in favor of them.

At least in the states, we have The First Sale Doctrine which protects those who wish to resell goods they have.

Secondly, we?ve had a used market for all forms of media (Books, movies, ect), and those industries are still around.

Finally, it?s the only way to get some games. Some games are just simply not available new anymore

However it does not take 3-5 Million dollars to make those (except movies and maybe some music)

I hear that quite frequently. My response is: So? You know what also costs millions of dollars to produce and design? Cars. And yet we have used cars don't we? Whenever you buy a used game, you are taking the same risk that a person who bought a used car did: That the person who had it the first time around didn't drive it too hard into the ground and it still works

Books can be writen and sold at such a fast rate that it doesnt matter that the books dont matter as much about the used book market

Movies are a double threat we all pay to see them when they are in movie theaters then buy them when they come out on DVD or stream them or some other crap

Art.... not alot to say to them there really isnt that huge of a used art market but... dont take my word for that as i really dont know much about it

Music is something else really they have DVD's, CD's, Live CD's, Concerts, Posters, Music Video's, ect the list does go on and while the artist may not make the most money from it (compaired to what the companys that produce them make)

My general point is this: People who hate used sales propose several things

1) Project $10. This I don't mind. $10 isn't much. I think EA did a good job with the ME2 DLC deal where if you got the game new, you got some free DLC. But be warned that this gives even MORE of a reason to buy used for those who don't go online/don't have internet.
2) Ban used sales alltogether. So people should be stuck with a game they hate and not be able to sell it?
3) Force Gamestop to give money to devs/publishers. First Sale Doctrine be damned, eh? Do this, and car corps, record corps, ect will line up for THEIR share.
4) Digital distribution only. How many of you have a favorite author? How many of you found out about said author by being lent a book by a frined/given the book? Same can be true of games.

Here's what I propose as a fair compromise:
Lets say game A is getting released, and they plan to have $35 worth of DLC out over the course of 5-7 months. When buying new, you have a chance to buy a "online pass" of sorts for, say $25, and get all the DLC when it comes out. That rewards people for buying new. If you got it used, you can get the same code for, say $30. Both ways give people a reason to hold onto their disks for the next few months. Thus, at launch, there will be fewer used games compeeting with the new games. And at the end, when people DO sell off their games, it gives people a chance to play them and buy the DLC at full price if they want. Kinda combine the "Rockstar Pass" with "Cerberus Network". I would be fully behind this plan.

 

[Thedayrecker]

I guess this explains Sony's new slogan: We weren't happy justifying piracy on the PC, only.

 

[THE_NAMSU]

I think they should stop retailers of course, they're just mega greedy seriously.
But they should not stop Amazon and Ebay and so on, because the seller then most likely uses the money they got from the game for a new one (like me).
I started selling games on ebay because the retailers rip me off like a load of twats.

 

[Chibz]

1) Project $10. This I don't mind. $10 isn't much. I think EA did a good job with the ME2 DLC deal where if you got the game new, you got some free DLC. But be warned that this gives even MORE of a reason to buy used for those who don't go online/don't have internet.

Actually, I feel that Mortal Kombat did day preorders, 1 DLC, "project $10" and DLC in general better than any game in a long time.

Project $10: Standing online pass fair, except not necessary for basic functionality.

Preorder: When you preordered you got a classic skin/fatality. Which character it was, was based exclusively on the store you preordered from (I got scorpion). Later released as a bundle for $6.

DLC: Developed after the game was finished, $5 / character. With more coming.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

1) Project $10. This I don't mind. $10 isn't much. I think EA did a good job with the ME2 DLC deal where if you got the game new, you got some free DLC. But be warned that this gives even MORE of a reason to buy used for those who don't go online/don't have internet.

Actually, I feel that Mortal Kombat did day preorders, 1 DLC, "project $10" and DLC in general better than any game in a long time.

Project $10: Standing online pass fair, except not necessary for basic functionality.

Preorder: When you preordered you got a classic skin/fatality. Which character it was, was based exclusively on the store you preordered from (I got scorpion). Later released as a bundle for $6.

DLC: Developed after the game was finished, $5 / character. With more coming.

Mmm, I never played Mortal Kombat, but that does sound like a good idea. Did it work well for you though?

Also, what do you think of my above idea?

Lets say game A is getting released, and they plan to have $35 worth of DLC out over the course of 5-7 months. When buying new, you have a chance to buy a "online pass" of sorts for, say $25, and get all the DLC when it comes out. That rewards people for buying new. If you got it used, you can get the same code for, say $30. Both ways give people a reason to hold onto their disks for the next few months. Thus, at launch, there will be fewer used games compeeting with the new games. And at the end, when people DO sell off their games, it gives people a chance to play them and buy the DLC at full price if they want. Kinda combine the "Rockstar Pass" with "Cerberus Network". I would be fully behind this plan.

I think that would work for everyone's benefit.

 

[Chibz]

Mmm, I never played Mortal Kombat, but that does sound like a good idea. Did it work well for you though?

Also, what do you think of my above idea?
I think that would work for everyone's benefit.

That would work well! As for how Mortal Kombat handled things, I love it. Works well.

 

[LorienvArden]

So IF they want to charge you for playing online, then by all means do so. Make PSN a premium feature with a subscription if running it is so costly that you can't find the funds for it between those sales.

I have NO sympathy for something like XboxLive where I should pay a subscription to be able to play online AND buy a brand new game.

Lets face it: You figure out how many copies of your game can be sold BEFORE selling them. Resales do not have an impact on the actual server load -once one player leaves, another joins.

Selling used property is the right of the customer. As a publisher you have two options:
a) Work with that right and give us reasonable incentives to buy NEW games - like premium content.
b) Take that right away and FORCE us to buy new games. E.g. Passcodes etc.

Option B should NEVER be your declared goal. Why ? Because antagonising your customers is about as healthy for your business as a dose of lead in your breakfast.

Tagging on Passcodes for online features ONLY works, if games become cheaper again.
You might want to get rid of some baggage in management and cut down production to what matters again: Less marketing and more creative work.
If folks like Arenanet can run a profitable Game without subscription through DLC and microtransaction, AND come up with enough funding for a spectacular sequel, the MW,COD etc.s out there might take some lessons in efficient project management and value analysis from them.

Yes, technology is exepensive and AAA games don't make themselfs - but those insane prices we have at the moment are sometimes totaly unjustified. Civilisation 5 for example. The graphics where improved - somewhat - but all other aspects of the game where INFERIOR to its prequel. It didn't run as well as other games in the series, it didn't innovate enough and it contained so many bugs that I haven't found the heart to play it again. 50? for about 5 hours of gametime. Simply unacceptable. Where did the development go wrong ? How could they mess up so much ?

Also, sometimes XBOX360 games just won't play online. I own GOW2 pretty much from launch onward - but after about 3 month I couldn't play online anymore. I could not connect to any games. Searching for 2hs - no games. Contacting developers - no solution. Downloading DLC in vain attempt to patch some kind of problem - nothing. If I paid 10? for online access and 25? for access to xbox live and still COULD NOT CONNECT - how do you think they would respond ?

I know -
With just another "Unforseen technical difficulties are not our fault - please be patient and try again later."
Because we are the customers -and customers can always be milked for more money.

 

[fix-the-spade]

At least in the states, we have The First Sale Doctrine which protects those who wish to resell goods they have.

Uh, would you like to jump into the coffin now Sony? I'll happily bring the hammer and nails

The form book says this is going to make them a lot of money.

EA, Ubisoft and couple of others have all introduced this into their console games and seen... an increase in their profits as people blindly pay up without a second thought. Can't see why Snoy will meet with any different results.

As for the protection of the law, software publishers have been merrily ignoring it for the last twenty years. Given that console players already have no problem with 'support' for their peer to peer online gaming getting dropped less than a year after the release of a $50 game, I can't see the situation changing.

PS, welcome to PC gaming everybody on the PSN network!

 

[fix-the-spade]

If Piracy is bad because it robs the lawful owner of the IP of their only method of income, then used games MUST be held to the same standard.

Except a used sale has already made the publisher/developer money. That it makes them no further money is irrelevant, they have had their sale and it is the consumer's right to re-sell the product that he owns.

It's worth noting that intellectual property and a physical disc containing one copy of said IP are different things entirely. Used sales are far less parasitic than online pass systems, which are effecively extortion.