Souls- Do we have them?

[Drakenian]

I understand. But logic and reasoning can't be used to define everything, even when we think we know everything. You know why?

Because we never will know everything. It's like trying to explain the affection I still hold for my ex girlfriend with logic; it won't make sense, even if, scientifically, it does. Science and logic have never, and will never be able to explain why people do what they do. The only reasons and explanations we can come up with are speculation and what we think is happening.

And why shouldn't I introduce the thought of the soul? I'm not even sure if, when I die, I will go to heaven and reside in the clouds and be happy for all of eternity, but I'm sure that living creatures have a soul. My reason? It's just the way I think. My views on life and other things are different from yours, therefor, I believe different things. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe you are an idiot. I don't believe your views are wrong, and I'm not trying to convince you that my views are right. I only want to say what I believe, explain, and listen to other people's thoughts, which is why I'm still replying to you.

And also, every piece of logic and reasoning in the world will never change what someone feels is right. Logic dictates that the best thing to do whenever you are attacked by a bear in the wilderness is to run away and leave your friend to die. The reason is because, logically, your survival rate is better when you leave the bear alone and run away, but will you? Chances are, no, you won't. You might leave if that is the way you are or if you are so afraid you don't know what to do, but your conscience, your soul tells you what the right thing to do is.

I believe in the soul because I just do. It's not a logical thing, it is just something I know exists.

Look man, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm explaining why the concept of a soul isn't sound.

The thing about logic and non-faulty reasoning, is that if you abandon it, not only can I not argue with you - you're untouchable. The downside is, what you believe in becomes pointless, either because you know it's not true and you don't want to explore it further or because you aren't taking the time to understand it.

Whether or not I'm logical rather than impulsive doesn't change the fact that by abandoning logic, I won't learn anything and I won't be able to evaluate claims that people make. And then where would we be?

If you're in the woods and there's a bear there may be a rational way to save yourself and your friend. But if you just abandon reason and jump in to fight the bear and save your friend, well, you're both dead. "Congratulations hero." Dead, accomplishing nothing. But your bear example has nothing to do with the validity of my argument or the existence of a soul.

If you can't explain a soul with logic, what will discarding the idea of logic gain you?

I know, I'm not very clear right now. I know you're not trying to attack me, and I know that once I abandon logic and resort to faith then there's no argument that can penetrate my wall of blinded faith. And I'm not trying to do that but...

First off, no, you won't be able to convince that there is no soul. I already believe in the soul. Why I am talking to you, is because I want to see your view, and see why you believe the things that you do. I don't want to convince you of my views, and I know that I won't be able to. Just like how you can't convince me of your views, I can't change yours.

I never said that you should abandon logic. I never said that logic was something evil, or something bad, or whatever. My whole point, my entire point, is that I believe that the brain regulates logic and understanding, and the soul deals with emotions and stuff like that. Without one, there is no other.

Did I discard the idea of logic? I wasn't aware that I did. If I did, I apologize, but what I meant to say was that logic cannot explain everything. There's nothing wrong with that, I don't mean to discard logic; if you can use logic to explain to me EXACTLY how the idea of a soul is wrong, which I don't believe you will be able to, then that's all well and good. I will accept your argument and move on with my life.

... Okay, look. I understand your argument. Why should I believe in the soul? Why should I believe in the idea of a soul? There's no reason to. It's not a sound thing to believe in. For every reason I've given to explain the soul, you can give me that reason to explain how it is just the brain. But, what it all comes down to is that the soul, God, love... these are things you cannot explain with logic. I am not dismissing the idea of logic, I am simply saying that for the given argument logic will not work. Not for me. Maybe for some people, but not for me.

You know, it's really quite pointless. I'm interested in your views on this subject, I really am. But we'll keep going back to this one point and discuss the same thing over and over again until one of us just doesn't care anymore to continue or falls asleep on our computers. I'm always interested to hear other people's views on things, and as long as you continue to post on the subject, I will continue to listen.

I'm sorry, as I should never have gotten into this discussion in the first place. You're using logic, and I'm using faith. Neither will work in arguments against one another, so what do you say we call it a night? For this topic at least. My head is starting to hurt, and there's no way we'll get anywhere, so...

 

[Acid Armageddon]

Yes, as Humans, we do have a soul.

 

[Dys]

With gravity, what is wrong with the old elemental approach? The theory of gravity is incomplete, there is no such thing as an infinate force that uses no energy, yet the most common theory of gravity doesn't address this. My point is that it works so why question it, much like the concept of a soul.

People are raised differently yes, and that does make them different, but there is more to it than simply how they are raised, and it can't all be attributed to genetics (or maybe it can, I can't say) but all people, experiences and beleifs aside, will react to different scenarios differently, people are not born equal in the real world, despite what primary school teachers want to tell naive students. Some people are naturally gentlre while others are naturaly malicious, their upbringing has little to do with this. How can you say beyond all certanty that there is not an element of you're mind responsible for these inherent differencees, and I stress again the soul has not been defined as supernatural or godly, in fact it is largely undefined except for it controls your morals to a degree. Why can there not be an element of your mind responsible for this? better yet how can there not be? I am anti-theist, I don't beleive in gods or the supernatural, yet I simply cannot dismiss the concept of a subconscious part of the mind controlling the morals of man, as the majority of people act on morlas with differing zeal, some cannot comprehend it at all, there is something other than genetic and social differences that partially accounts for this.

1) Did I ever assume children were blank slates or perfectly equal? Again, we're all different, we all have different perspectives (because we are all different), different capacities, and different genetics that - believe it or not - do have impact on our personalities.
2) I was a camp counselor and rotten kids tend to have non-involved, abusive, or otherwise unpleasant parents.
and 3) as a "anti-theist," where does this "soul" come from?

You're raising more questions (a ton) with the soul than you're solving (none).

1.
Children are not born equal, some more equal than others prehaps, but we are not a blank canvas when we are born, not even close to it. Some people are intellectually gifted, some people are socially gifted, some people are diabetic, some people cannot feel emotion, some people are autistic. Seriously, to think we are born equal is naive, we are all born with completely different potentials, sure for the most part we are functional, but we are not equal, difference is what makes us human. I'm not saying that genetics and upbringing don't impact on us (hell I didn't even say that the soul as I interpret it isn't directly related to genetics), however we are still different outside of that, people are born with different levels of moral awareness, and sometimes through no fault of their own or their parents they simply cannot grasp the feelings of those around them.

2.
Of course most rotten kids will have shit parents, that's why they are rotten. I'm not trying to claim that a sould is the only measure of morality a person may have, or that only people with bad souls do bad things, more just that people are different and even if they were put in the same situation, even if they had been under the same physical and social conditions, they would react differently, and perceive right and wrong as different courses of action.

3.
The soul comes from the mind, I consider it a part of ones consciousness. You might as well be asking "as an anti-theist, where do your morals come from". It is a good explanation for why people are so inherently different. I don't beleive that jupiter is the king of gods as the ancient greeks did, however I still call the planet by the same name they did. Soul is just a word, whether you want to take it as something silly and superstitious or not is your call, but I see no reason why we can't pay homage to concepts that shaped our society and call a similar part of our mind the same thing.

 

[Flunk]

Yes, as Humans, we do have a soul.

Why do you think that? Did the magic pixies tell you so?

 

[hypothetical fact]

Yes, as Humans, we do have a soul.

Why do you think that? Did the magic pixies tell you so?

In B4 flamewar over religion.
But with a thread title like this a flamewar is inevitable.

 

[Dys]

Yes, as Humans, we do have a soul.

Why do you think that? Did the magic pixies tell you so?

In B4 flamewar over religion.
But with a thread title like this a flamewar is inevitable.

We're three pages in and it hasn't happened yet, hopefully it will keep going the way it is.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

*snip*

Repeat after me: I never said all children were equal or blank slates. I never argued that. Disabilities are either genetic, the result of toxins, or bad development. Differences in human intellect can be explained and studied. They are not caused by a "faulty" soul.

Also, you might want to look into psychopathy. In prisons, 50-80% of inmate populations are rated high on the psychopathy checklist. Psychopathy causes certain deficiencies which cause people to be bad - these deficiencies can be (and have been) tested, measured, and studied/ Again, this isn't caused by a faulty soul.

If the soul comes from the mind - well, that's not a soul. You're just nicknaming features of the human mind that you don't understand as "soul."

 

[neoman10]

Yes, as Humans, we do have a soul.

Why do you think that? Did the magic pixies tell you so?

In B4 flamewar over religion.
But with a thread title like this a flamewar is inevitable.

We're three pages in and it hasn't happened yet, hopefully it will keep going the way it is.

4

 

[Acid Armageddon]

Yes, as Humans, we do have a soul.

Why do you think that? Did the magic pixies tell you so?

In B4 flamewar over religion.
But with a thread title like this a flamewar is inevitable.

The only flamer I see is you. We all have our own opinions, you have no need to be an ass about it and disrespect me the way you did.

 

[neoman10]

*snip*

Repeat after me: I never said all children were equal or blank slates. I never argued that. Disabilities are either genetic, the result of toxins, or bad development. They can be explained and studied. They are not caused by a "faulty" soul.

Also, you might want to look into psychopathy. In prisons, 50-80% of inmate populations are rated high on the psychopathy checklist. Psychopathy causes certain deficiencies which cause people to be bad - these deficiencies can be (and have been) tested, measured, and studied/ Again, this isn't caused by a faulty soul.

If the soul comes from the mind - well, that's not a soul. You're just nicknaming features of the human mind that you don't understand as "soul."

that's Locke right?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

that's Locke right?

How so? (Oh, blank slate would be Locke. He was from the 1600s - we've kinda learned a bit since his time. That people have predispositions and little bit of "hardwired" instinct.)

 

[neoman10]

that's Locke right?

How so? (Oh, blank slate would be Locke. He was from the 1600s - we've kinda learned a bit since his time. That people have predispositions and little bit of "hardwired" instinct.)

yeah, I can get that

 

[Dys]

*snip*

Repeat after me: I never said all children were equal or blank slates. I never argued that. Disabilities are either genetic, the result of toxins, or bad development. Differences in human intellect can be explained and studied. They are not caused by a "faulty" soul.

Also, you might want to look into psychopathy. In prisons, 50-80% of inmate populations are rated high on the psychopathy checklist. Psychopathy causes certain deficiencies which cause people to be bad - these deficiencies can be (and have been) tested, measured, and studied/ Again, this isn't caused by a faulty soul.

If the soul comes from the mind - well, that's not a soul. You're just nicknaming features of the human mind that you don't understand as "soul."

That's exactly what I'm doing, except more I'm defining features of religon I do not understand or that have not been given proper definition. I'm applying a religious concept to a real world example so as to justify it's existance. My overall point was that a soul isn't defined, and that it can be whatever the hell you want it to. Religon is very subjective, people can easily beleive in a soul without resorting the superstition and dusty old books, especially as it isn't defined.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

So many fools in this life always want proof of an existence. They always want someone to prove that a soul exists. You people are fools if EVERYTHING has to have a physical evidence to it.

I agree w/ you on that part of what you believe.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

*snip*

Repeat after me: I never said all children were equal or blank slates. I never argued that. Disabilities are either genetic, the result of toxins, or bad development. Differences in human intellect can be explained and studied. They are not caused by a "faulty" soul.

Also, you might want to look into psychopathy. In prisons, 50-80% of inmate populations are rated high on the psychopathy checklist. Psychopathy causes certain deficiencies which cause people to be bad - these deficiencies can be (and have been) tested, measured, and studied/ Again, this isn't caused by a faulty soul.

If the soul comes from the mind - well, that's not a soul. You're just nicknaming features of the human mind that you don't understand as "soul."

That's exactly what I'm doing, except more I'm defining features of religon I do not understand or that have not been given proper definition. I'm applying a religious concept to a real world example so as to justify it's existance. My overall point was that a soul isn't defined, and that it can be whatever the hell you want it to. Religon is very subjective, people can just as easily beleive in a soul without resorting the superstition and dusty old books, especially as it isn't defined.

Look, you're saying that the soul is part of the mind - that this is the way people work. This goes beyond your personal beliefs - this is debate on the nature of the human brain. If you're doing that, which you are, I can criticize your assertions, point out evidence to the contrary and propose an alternate explanation, which I've done.

There is no reason to name features you don't understand a "soul," saying we can't explain it (especially when we can), and leave it at that. That's lazy.

 

[TheBarefootBandit]

Well then let's do an experiment and find out. If the soul is made of matter, and it leaves when the person dies, take the mass of a person just before and after they die. Any volunteers?

But how do we account for flatulence?!

The acceptance that their is a part of every persons soul which wish to break free from the shakles known as their pants.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

So many fools in this life always want proof of an existence. They always want someone to prove that a soul exists. You people are fools if EVERYTHING has to have a physical evidence to it.

If we're the one's asking for evidence, how are we foolish? If there's no reason to believe in something, how's that the wise thing to do?

Funnily enough, these are the same people who, when presented evidence of evolution suddenly become all skeptical.

 

[Dys]

*snip*

Repeat after me: I never said all children were equal or blank slates. I never argued that. Disabilities are either genetic, the result of toxins, or bad development. Differences in human intellect can be explained and studied. They are not caused by a "faulty" soul.

Also, you might want to look into psychopathy. In prisons, 50-80% of inmate populations are rated high on the psychopathy checklist. Psychopathy causes certain deficiencies which cause people to be bad - these deficiencies can be (and have been) tested, measured, and studied/ Again, this isn't caused by a faulty soul.

If the soul comes from the mind - well, that's not a soul. You're just nicknaming features of the human mind that you don't understand as "soul."

That's exactly what I'm doing, except more I'm defining features of religon I do not understand or that have not been given proper definition. I'm applying a religious concept to a real world example so as to justify it's existance. My overall point was that a soul isn't defined, and that it can be whatever the hell you want it to. Religon is very subjective, people can just as easily beleive in a soul without resorting the superstition and dusty old books, especially as it isn't defined.

Look, you're saying that the soul is part of the mind - that this is the way people work. This goes beyond your personal beliefs - this is debate on the nature of the human brain. If you're doing that, which you are, I can criticize your assertions, point out evidence to the contrary and propose an alternate explanation, which I've done.

There is no reason to name features you don't understand a "soul," saying we can't explain it (especially when we can), and leave it at that. That's lazy.

I'm saying there's no reason or evidence that the soul isn't part of the mind. The soul isn't defined to any scientific standard.

Of course their are other names for the differences in morality that I spoke of, but it isn't necissary for the soul to exist outside the laws of science. We know bits and peices of how the brain works, compared to what we knew when the concept of soul was first conjured, we know a lot, the people who originially concieved the idea of a soul weren't lazy thinkers, they didn't have studies and statistics to fall back on, they simply applied a theory to explain what they saw.

There is no reason why a soul can't be describing parts of the mind we can can or cannot otherwise explain, it hardly interferes with what we already know. Humans do have a moral compass, if people want to call it a soul, when that's what it has been labelled for hundreds of years why shouldn't they? How can you possibly claim that which is only defined in ones own mind doesn't exist? It would make sense to tell someone their interpritation is implausable, however the word is empty without some form of faith or comprehension attached, it's meaning is a long way from constant.

 

[CrafterMan]

I believe in having a soul, I obviously can't prove that, but I have faith that when I die, my soul will live on.

-Joe

 

[PlasticPorter]

well if you believe in the existence of out of body experiences then yes, you have to believe that there is a soul. Another interesting point that science has brought up about about the existence of the human soul is that in epilepsy patients where electric stimulation is used upon the brain of the subject the scientists were able to shock parts of the brain to make a patient close their eyes or talk or move their leg. Now if normally movement in our bodies is brought about by the brain using electrical currents to oporate itself then why when these patients recieved the electric shock that forced them to move involuntarily did they know everytime that THEY THEMSELVES did not commit that action but that it was the electric shock. I dont know if i made this idea clear or not but it is very interesting, no?