scumofsociety said:
I have to admit I've never read dune, my point is that most of these things existed anyway. The Inquisition seems a lot like say...the inquisiton, space marines seem a lot like templars to me. The ecclesiarchy...don't need to point this out I hope. The loss of technology etc seems too much like the collapse of the roman empire and the onset of the dark ages/middle ages.
I see 40k as more a case of 'what if the world really was stalked by demons' not what would happen if we came face to face with a god like being. Humanity lost it's shit when it turned psychic and got attacked by daemons, not when the emporer appeared (or is that not what you meant?) If you meant humanity lost its shit when the emporer died and went all inquisition on itself, then theres a historical precedent. A hell of a lot of people believe humanity has come into contact with the son of God...The big E being compared to the big JC is a fairly common one.
Sure, a couple of bits probably were pinched from Dune...and Star Wars, and Starship Troopers and Judge Dredd and Isaac Asimov and H.G.Wells and Lord of the Rings and Jules Verne and George Orwell and Greek Mythology and Judeo chritian mythos and Norse myths and any event in history etc etc etc.
its a semi lose connection, Dune is a truly epic story, 40K is pretty cool but nothing like a 'classic' that Dune is. and ill agree with you from your more in depth reply. ive read as ive said thousands of storys of all kinds and it sometime seems there truly IS nothing 'new'. its all been done before depending on how you view it. but there IS a connection between Dune and 40K and not just a minor one.
the god thing ........ well the emperor IS god to the 40K humans. thats what i ment when i said humanity lost their shit. its one thing to worship a god that isnt setting on a throne someplace issuing commands on a daily basis and something quite else when god shows up in the flesh and starts talking to you on the 6 o'clock news. thats another and perhaps the BIGGEST connection with Dune. Dune is about mankind breeding a 'god'. a man with the ability to see the future. if you really think about that concept its actualy about the closest thing we humans COULD get to BEING a god. how much of an advantage would a human who knows the future be, how could anyone who couldnt see the future possable compeat with him? he would BE a god when compared to a normal human. much like the emperor in 40K
it would be much like how the world would react of Jesus DID show up next week and said "lookit we need to form an army to fight all muslems" do you think that any Christian wouldnt lose their fucking mind and NOT run off to join gods army? when your fighting for god himself you CANT be wrong ....... or so the thinking would go. just like the 40k 'cults' act.
anyhow since you havent read dune, and i would encourage you to do so, about half of what im talking about here will be missed by you. not at all saying your ignorant or wrong. im just drawing conclusions about the topic based on information and concepts that are covered much greater in depth in Dune than in the 40K stuff. you make connections with the crusades, your supposed too, it IS the crusades in space 40 thousands years from now, but my point about the role that religion playes visa vie the emperor in 40k is informed by the role that the emperor played in Dune thats all.
Crudler said:
Finally, (about bloody time, written far too much that I doubt will be read but anyway) Space Marines are pretty damn agile too. Just because they're 10/12ft tall doesn't mean they lumber about oh no,
ive avoided the other 'side' of this thread to date because its mostly silly. but THIS point i see repeated is perhaps the most ignorant.
'agility' is based on a persons strength, the stronger you are the more agile you are. im talking about the power required to move a certian mass in a given direction in a certian time at a given gravity. the STRONGER a person is the more agile they are the faster they can do all those things i just listed. just dont confuse muscle mass with strength either, there is a difference. muscle density is much more importiant than muscle mass in this topic.
after all superman is faster than a speeding bullet and that is due to his strength and his muscle density, he packs much more strength in his muscles than of the same mass than normal humans do (its also what makes him bullet proof). if you took a human being, and made him so he could move on a planet with a 10k X earth gravity field he would BE superman. put that same being in a suit of Space marine armor and make him 10 feet tall and well, you have space marines. or atleast thats how i understand it.
but in any case its just flat out wrong to confuse size with agility. all things are in relation to one another. in Japan my 6'2" is abnormal but id be willing to bet im just as agile as most japaneese 6" shorter and 50 lbs lighter than i am. and in America where im from there are average people LARGER than i am that are MUCH more agile. hell just look at any football player at 6'6" and 350 lbs that can chase down any 'normal' person thats only 5'5" and 180 lbs. and totaly kick his ass when he catches him.
now i know nothing about Halo, nothing at all so i dont care to chose sides in this lil pissing contest, but this idea that smaller = more agile is just dumb and not true to boot.
Alex_P said:
Wyatt said:
as i said to alex perhaps i should have said US vrs THEM instead of Good vrs Evil. that avoids moral questions and gets right to the core of the matter.
But it's what "US" are doing
to us that I'm talking about. The whole screwed-up society that just throws people away.
I
want the heroes to somehow rebel against the inherent fucked-up-ness of their grimdark crapsack world, not just kill kill kill kill kill kill kill(*) in the Emperor's name. I don't care if it's futile. It's the human thing to do.
-- Alex
__________
* - This one time, I will actually give people "points" or "cookies" or whatever for catching the obscure reference.
no cookie for me i dont know the referance but i like the space marines just as they are. they know what they are fighting for and do it. right or wrong. i agree that there is a place for morality thats what the inquisition is for. thats where you get your fill of the moral delemas, but the space marines leave all that aside and just get to the killing.
ive had some experiance with this in real life. i can speak from experiance about actual combat. i dont often bring this point up because making a clame on the internet like this is like fucking for virginity. i can offer no proof but my writen words. but should you accept my clame than i will say with some degree of 'official' opinion that when the shooting starts and combat is joined than moral questions loose all meaning. you can decide whos right and whos wrong when the guns go silent. thats why i enjoy how the space marines are put forward. what you call hokey and over the top, people that have been involved in real combat see something to be admired. real combat IS over the top and when your diving head first into a ditch because there is mortar or rocket shells incoming if your first responce isnt too shoot back (or kill kill kill as you put it) than you wont live long. in war there is no room for good or evil, 'right' or 'wrong' there is US and there is THEM and who ever is alive at the end can write the next book of morality.
as Jackie Fisher (a cookie if you can tell me who he was) once said (roughly) "speaking of humanizing war is stupid, you may as well speak of humanizing hell". i dont want my warriors to think, i want them to kill, leave the thinking up to those back home that have the leasure warriors provide to waste on thoughts of morality or change. on the battle front i want single minded commitment to killing your enemys. all else = lose.
ill also add this. what humans can accept for morality is in a direct relationship with what their enemys will do too them should they loose. for example orwells 1984 is a PRIME example of what im saying, if you have read it you will understand my point totaly. sure life is bad in the human universe in 40K but it would be much much much worse should chaos win. all things are Relative. what my point is that should you actualy LIVE there you might in fact think that the space marines ARE heros, you yourself under the pressures of living in that society my not only accept them but actualy SUPPORT them especialy given your alternatives should they loose. you can 'change' that society AFTER the threat is dealt with but not before.
see my point?
