(spoilers) Opinion: Mass Effect 2 has some of the weakest writing around (spoilers)

[Da Orky Man]

Sure, it had some not-so-well-done bits, but most of it was excellent. Jack may be a powerful biotic, but biotics ARE still limited.

What annoyed me most about the writing in Mass Effect 2 was how many big, pivotal concepts they introduced and then glossed over. Consider Shepard's resurrection. The guy came back from the dead. In our culture today, we obsess over anyone who's been dead for a few seconds. They make the talk show circuits, we grill them about bright lights and did they see their family, etc. In ME2, no one mentions it.

What? I died for a few minutes, and I never got any attention. Though I never saw any lights or voices. Just black.

 

[veloper]

I can think of worse writing in videogames. Characters, plotwise, dialogues, everything.

Every game Bethesda ever made to start with.
All Fable games.
The deus ex series.

Mass Effect 2 was average in many ways, including the writing and plot, average for a videogame that is, which is still bad.

Only Black Isle and Troika could write (RIP). Obsidian showes some promise but they are too inconsistent.
So yeah, the topic starter hasn't played many games, or he's got poor taste.

 

[Woodsey]

Well, no. Because balance is necessary.

Alright, you caught me. I was hoping to be lazy and include all other probable causes such as balance, time to make the game, inclusion of too many varying mechanics, etc. in my 'and some such' statement.

You're right, though. I can't help but too often see the cutscenes as the game the designers wanted to make and the gameplay as what they were forced to turn it into for whatever reason.

I think that can be an issue (it seems to have been the main reason behind the massive surge in QTEs a couple of years ago), but I don't think its one in ME2 overtly.

GTA IV sticks out as one of the worst in my mind.

Cutscene Niko: "I must kill this one person for $$$ even though I hate killing but I need the money."

In-game Niko: Drives through old women like bowling pins, steals a car, checks up on his $1,000,000 bank balance, murders the one guy, his family, his dog's brother's previous owner, and almost blows up an airport.

And then bowling.

 

[northeast rower]

Well thought out. I love ME2 and it hurts me to agree with you on many of your points. The most salient for me is the gameplay not fitting the world. All of what you say is true. Why is everybody so awesome in the cutscenes just to be so ... not when we get control of them? Likely hardware issues or some such.

Well, no. Because balance is necessary.

You either overpower them to the point where your enemies have huge pools of health (thereby negating the power anyway), or you keep it on a normal level and accept that there'll be some disconnect between gameplay and plot.

A lot of games have that issue, especially when you go to more hardcore RPGs.

It honestly seems like you've blinded yourself by your loyalty to Bioware, which I've managed to shake off. Open your eyes, heathen! (joking)

As for your other comment, I've played more games than you can count. Don't pander to me. Though I agree that it is difficult to steer away from the trope/cliche, it doesn't seem like Bioware made much of an effort. And I'm not criticizing the Shepard arc- read more carefully. I'm criticizing how inconsistent he is when you aren't in control of him.

I haven't played many games? What a fucking joke. Don't insult me.

I'd suggest warm water.

Anyway, I'm saying a trope - in and of itself - is not bad (virtually everything is a trope), as long as the characters are interesting and have depth, which I felt they were (some more than others, of course). Mass Effect 2's cast were more interesting than any in other BioWare games I've played.

And OK then, he's not always cracking jokes and is sometimes serious. I can't remember specific instances of when he said stuff by default (although there was a little more of that then I'd have liked).

Rage was needed.

Yes, a trope is unavoidable, but Bioware doesn't attempt to move past that. I just didn't find Mass Effect 2's cast to have the depth that I wanted. Interesting? Sure. But not deep.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As for your other comment, I've played more games than you can count. Don't pander to me. Though I agree that it is difficult to steer away from the trope/cliche, it doesn't seem like Bioware made much of an effort. And I'm not criticizing the Shepard arc- read more carefully. I'm criticizing how inconsistent he is when you aren't in control of him.

I haven't played many games? What a fucking joke. Don't insult me.

Well, no, it doesn't seem like you've played many games. Do I think Bioware's writing is good going by literary standards? No I don't. I think their plots are hackneyed, I think their characters are one-dimensional, and I've already gone off the handle about their ridiculous love stories more times than I can count.

But do I think Bioware's writing is good by GAMING standards? Good lord, yes, I do. I've been playing games for almost thirty years, and I can say without reservation that writing in this medium hasn't often gotten much better than this. Video games have long the been the refuge of extremely simplistic narratives and profoundly rudimentary characterizations. This is one of the reason it makes it so easy for gas bag like Roger Ebert to look at them, do a direct 1:1 comparison of their relative merits with film, and pronounce them "not art". Whether you're saving a princess from a big monkey or blowing up some terrorists or battling yet ANOTHER wave of demons, the average gaming narrative is execrable. And if you've played as many games as you're insinuating, you should know this. Which makes this...

Now, unlike many people I don't make troll subject lines and then use them to grab attention for something less important.

...a big fat lie. What's unfortunate is I think there's actually room to have an honest discussion about where Bioware repeatedly falls short with their writing. I think they have some capable writers on that staff, and yet they perpetually fall short of the high watermark set by games like Planescape Torment. They're thematically weak, they lean too hard on big bads, the romantic elements are pubescent at best, and so on. Instead, you go right for the jugular and call it some of the worst writing around, which...yes, okay, you're entitled to your opinions, but I think we can both be honest and admit this particular opinion is wrong. You want to hand pick a small pile of games with better narratives? You know full well I could lay out thousands with worse, or no narratives at all.

Bioware's writing may be buck toothed and knock-kneed, but it's still one of the prettiest girls at the party. If you want to rant about weak writing, you better start with the medium as a whole and then go from there, rather than just beating on something you think is a sacred cow because you think it will stimulate conversation.

 

[northeast rower]

As for your other comment, I've played more games than you can count. Don't pander to me. Though I agree that it is difficult to steer away from the trope/cliche, it doesn't seem like Bioware made much of an effort. And I'm not criticizing the Shepard arc- read more carefully. I'm criticizing how inconsistent he is when you aren't in control of him.

I haven't played many games? What a fucking joke. Don't insult me.

Well, no, it doesn't seem like you've played many games. Do I think Bioware's writing is good going by literary standards? No I don't. I think their plots are hackneyed, I think their characters are one-dimensional, and I've already gone off the handle about their ridiculous love stories more times than I can count.

But do I think Bioware's writing is good by GAMING standards? Good lord, yes, I do. I've been playing games for almost thirty years, and I can say without reservation that writing in this medium hasn't often gotten much better than this. Video games have long the been the refuge of extremely simplistic narratives and profoundly rudimentary characterizations. This is one of the reason it makes it so easy for gas bag like Roger Ebert to look at them, do a direct 1:1 comparison of their relative merits with film, and pronounce them "not art". Whether you're saving a princess from a big monkey or blowing up some terrorists or battling yet ANOTHER wave of demons, the average gaming narrative is execrable. And if you've played as many games as you're insinuating, you should know this. Which makes this...

Now, unlike many people I don't make troll subject lines and then use them to grab attention for something less important.

...a big fat lie. What's unfortunate is I think there's actually room to have an honest discussion about where Bioware repeatedly falls short with their writing. I think they have some capable writers on that staff, and yet they perpetually fall short of the high watermark set by games like Planescape Torment. They're thematically weak, they lean too hard on big bads, the romantic elements are pubescent at best, and so on. Instead, you go right for the jugular and call it some of the worst writing around, which...yes, okay, you're entitled to your opinions, but I think we can both be honest and admit this particular opinion is wrong. You want to hand pick a small pile of games with better narratives? You know full well I could lay out thousands with worse, or no narratives at all.

Bioware's writing may be buck toothed and knock-kneed, but it's still one of the prettiest girls at the party. If you want to rant about weak writing, you better start with the medium as a whole and then go from there, rather than just beating on something you think is a sacred cow because you think it will stimulate conversation.

Did I say anything about gaming standards? No. I didn't. We need to move past the phase of "the writing sucks BUT it's a videogame" or our culture will never develop (jesus I sound like such a tryhard).

And don't pull "your opinion is wrong" on me. I firmly believe that Bioware forgot how to write with Mass Effect 2. I'm honestly not trolling here, the game as a whole is weak. Lair of the Shadow Broker goes some length towards fixing this, but it's not the whole game. I figured I would go for the "sacred cow" because that's what everyone holds as the GOLDEN STANDARD, when in reality it shouldn't be (and also I just don't like Mass Effect 2 that much).

 

[drummond13]

I'm curious as to what games you think have GOOD writing. I write for a living and I felt the characters and dialogue in ME2 were excellent, especially given the standards of video games today. They're not overly three dimensional and complex, true, but in a space opera like this they don't need to be. They have a great amount of character and depth. Sorry you disagree.

I do agree Shepard didn't develop too much, but most central characters don't. Seriously. How many games have the protagonist develop at all? They're out there, but they're a lot rarer than your post suggests. And several of the other characters in ME2 DO develop.

On a final note, you can't bash the game for rules like biotics not working against shields. Does it make as much sense plotwise? No. But seriously, @#$% that. This is a game. And there would be no point in playing as anything but biotic characters if they were the most powerful ones with no limitations.

But hey, as you said, you're entitled to your opinion. But if you can't appreciate one of the best games in the past two years, what games DO you like? I'm being serious, I'm curious.

 

[SpaceBat]

I firmly believe that Bioware forgot how to write with Mass Effect 2.

Nah, if you dislike ME2's writing (Don't dislike Bioware writing at all, but not putting it on the same level as Planescape Torment et cetera), then they forgot how to write after Baldur's Gate 2. KotoR's plot and characters were even more shallow, cliché and bland (et cetera) than the Mass Effect series.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Did I say anything about gaming standards? No. I didn't. We need to move past the phase of "the writing sucks BUT it's a videogame" or our culture will never develop (jesus I sound like such a tryhard).

And don't pull "your opinion is wrong" on me. I firmly believe that Bioware forgot how to write with Mass Effect 2. I'm honestly not trolling here, the game as a whole is weak. Lair of the Shadow Broker goes some length towards fixing this, but it's not the whole game. I figured I would go for the "sacred cow" because that's what everyone holds as the GOLDEN STANDARD, when in reality it shouldn't be (and also I just don't like Mass Effect 2 that much).

Because your thread title is contextual. "Mass Effect 2 has some of the weakest writing around". Compared to...what? Tolstoy? Of course the narrative is going to be weaker than films or books, it has to allow for fragmentation based on player input. If you're holding it to THAT standard, you're going to be perpetually disappointed. So the reasonable thing to do is to compare it to its contemporaries...other video games. And you can whine about the lack of quality writing in video game culture all you want...that's a legitimate gripe...but singling out one of the VERY FEW developers who give writing ANY attention at all as the target for your tirades is deliberately stoking the fires of controversy.

People hold it as the golden standard for a reason, though. I don't care for the films of Stanley Kubrick. I simply cannot connect to them in any meaningful way. But they're popular enough, and critically revered enough, that I've always assumed that this disconnect came from an issue with me. Because really, what's more likely? A lot of people who study and appreciate film for a living were all bamboozled, or that my personal idiosyncrasies left me unable to enjoy them? I hear that you don't like Mass Effect 2, and that's unfortunate, but there's not a lot of room for objective debate here. The quality of writing in this medium is appalling. Mass Effect 2, and Bioware in general, are amongst the best on offer. You can continue to pretend this isn't the case, or be angry that it is the case, but again...if you're as experienced a gamer as you claim to be, you know there are innumerable examples of worse writing out there, and that your OP was deliberately inflammatory.

 

[northeast rower]

I firmly believe that Bioware forgot how to write with Mass Effect 2.

Nah, if you dislike ME2's writing (Don't dislike Bioware writing at all, but not putting it on the same level as Planescape Torment et cetera), then they forgot how to write after Baldur's Gate 2. KotoR's plot and characters were even more shallow, cliché and bland (et cetera) than the Mass Effect series.

I dunno, I liked KOTOR's writing. I think that it relied on most of the aforementioned Bioware tricks (oh no, my family!), but I still enjoyed getting to know Carth, Bastila, etc. And I thought that the plot was absolutely great, and not just for the twist (which, strangely, didn't affect me that much).

 

[LiquidGrape]

Jack is one of the few wholly three-dimensional characters in games.
- I think that's essentially all I have to say on the matter.

But would I agree that the fundamental intrigue of Mass Effect is inherently flawed? Yes, and from the very first game, I'd say. But what ultimately redeems that series is the characters, or at least a great majority of them.
Kaidan is almost offensively bland, Thane is little more than another Carth-syndrome fill and Tali was reduced to an exercise in problematic hero worship. But truly substantial characters such as Jack, Samara and Mordin made up for those few missteps in my eyes, and then some. They dealt with significant issues of identity, purpose and morality respectively, and while Mass Effect is generally quite simplistic in its deconstruction of complex conflicts, it didn't shy away from rendering the player incapable of providing a simple "fix" for these characters.
Jack can be allowed some emotional release, but she won't conform to what is generally perceived as "normal" behaviour. Samara can be offered purpose in love, but her dogmatic sense of duty denies any room for happiness. Mordin will probably always struggle with his feelings of guilt, regardless of what Shepard does to sooth his conscience.

 

[Jared Domenico]

they can't work if their enemy is using an electronic shield. Confusing? Yeah. I really didn't know that kinetic barriers could undo the power of gravitational forces, but I guess they can now!

You.... didn't read the codex at all, did you?

 

[liquidus118]

Jack is one of the few wholly three-dimensional characters in games.

"Tsundere is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere

She's a cliche, just a cliche from a different culture.

 

[legendp]

try watching "how it should have ended" on youtube and you will see pretty much everything has plot holes, does not mean you can not enjoy a good story. the more complex a story is the more plot holes it will have and compared to most game's mass effect 2 has some of the best writing out there (would like to see you write an interesting 30 hour plot with no plot holes?). as for combat being unrealistic and thane not having a thousand move's, if it were truly realistic it would be so ridiculously bland and boring and again could you program or even think of a thousand different killing moves for thane? I will admit there are plot holes here and there but how does that make the game bad (or weak as you called it). I thoroughly enjoyed mass effect 2 and it's story as well as gameplay a lot.

 

[northeast rower]

they can't work if their enemy is using an electronic shield. Confusing? Yeah. I really didn't know that kinetic barriers could undo the power of gravitational forces, but I guess they can now!

You.... didn't read the codex at all, did you?

No, please explain.

 

[northeast rower]

try watching "how it should have ended" on youtube and you will see pretty much everything has plot holes, does not mean you can not enjoy a good story. the more complex a story is the more plot holes it will have and compared to most game's mass effect 2 has some of the best writing out there (would like to see you write an interesting 30 hour plot with no plot holes?)

Try reading "The Odyssey" or "Ulysses".

 

[LiquidGrape]

Jack is one of the few wholly three-dimensional characters in games.

"Tsundere is a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere

She's a cliche, just a cliche from a different culture.

How delightfully reductionist of you.
Jack is human. She's capable of expressing emotion without becoming a stereotype. Furthermore, she doesn't somehow bend to the will of the player simply because she's approached with the "right" combination of dialogue. She can find enough trust in another person to allow herself some degree of introspection, however.

 

[liquidus118]

How delightfully reductionist of you.
Jack is human. She's capable of expressing emotion without becoming a stereotype. Furthermore, she doesn't bend to the will of the player simply because she's approached with the "right" combination of dialogue. She can find enough trust in another person to allow herself some introspection, however.

You're right about me being reductionist, but you haven't really argued your case very well.

And, whilst I'm being reductionist, Tsundere is still too accurate of a description of her character for me to genuinely accept her as a three-dimensional character as opposed to just a competently written one. Though the big problem with her is how linear the relationships had to develop, what with it revolving around a loyalty mission and - in the case of a member of the opposite sex - a hearty shag before the final mission. If it had had the chance to be less linear with how you interacted with her I would probably agree with you.

 

[SpaceBat]

I dunno, I liked KOTOR's writing. I think that it relied on most of the aforementioned Bioware tricks (oh no, my family!), but I still enjoyed getting to know Carth, Bastila, etc. And I thought that the plot was absolutely great, and not just for the twist (which, strangely, didn't affect me that much).

I don't get this. I respect your opinion and do not dismiss it or anything of the sort, but I simply don't understand the love for Kotor's story. Could you explain it to me if you have the time? I mean seriously,

- It relied on so many clichés (not only just ALL the bioware tricks, but other cliche's in general as well) and was, aside from the plot twist, predictable as hell.
- The plot itself is just...average. Very little background story is given, even though that would have been a phenomenal story in itself.
- Characters, aside from HK-47 and perhaps Bastilla, are just as clichéd as most of the ME characters and often get even less character development than them. I mean come on, don't tell me that Carth, Zaalbar, Juhani, Mission and T3-M4 were actual deep and fleshed out characters. Not even HK is deep, but he just makes up for that by being absolutely awesome.
- Gameplay was incredibly broken, as it is easy to become overpowered and just destroy everything in your path.
- The Soundtrack is just your average SW soundtrack
- Although the plot in itself isn't entirely black and white, it does handle the story in black and white manner (I have yet to see a single REAL grey choice in KotoR). And this is actually the worst aspect of the entire story. Everything...EVERYTHING is black and FUCKING white as it can possibly be. Even when the stuff that they slap you in the face with is grey, it's still looked at in b&W. What the fuck?

When I played it for the first time, I enjoyed the story as well, including the twist. Then I started to think more and more about it, talk about it with people and in the end nearly nothing was left but just a weak, predictable, bland, black and white story with decent characters. Don't get me wrong, KotoR's story is still better than 90% of all games ever, but as you said, screw gaming standards. In itself, it's an interesting story, but nothing and I mean absolutely nothing about it is deep.

Which is why I'm pissed off at Kotor 2 for being so goddamn incredibly incomplete and rushed, because that game, if it was complete and not rushed (gameplay, ending et cetera) would have absolutely destroyed the first game.

 

[winter2]

What? I died for a few minutes, and I never got any attention. Though I never saw any lights or voices. Just black.

We talk about you. Behind your back.