(spoilers) Opinion: Mass Effect 2 has some of the weakest writing around (spoilers)

[BloatedGuppy]

Try reading "The Odyssey" or "Ulysses".

So is this the benchmark we're using then? The book the Modern Library marked #1 on its list of the best English language novels of the 20th century? So Mass Effect 2 has some of the weakest writing in its medium because it falls down in comparison with arguably the finest novel ever written?

Oh BRAVO.

 

[LiquidGrape]

How delightfully reductionist of you.
Jack is human. She's capable of expressing emotion without becoming a stereotype. Furthermore, she doesn't bend to the will of the player simply because she's approached with the "right" combination of dialogue. She can find enough trust in another person to allow herself some introspection, however.

You're right about me being reductionist, but you haven't really argued your case very well.

And, whilst I'm being reductionist, Tsundere is still too accurate of a description of her character for me to genuinely accept her as a three-dimensional character as opposed to just a competently written one. Though the big problem with her is how linear the relationships had to develop, what with it revolving around a loyalty mission and - in the case of a member of the opposite sex - a hearty shag before the final mission. If it had had the chance to be less linear with how you interacted with her I would probably agree with you.

First of all, I do apologise if I came off as a tad curt in my previous post. I just have this knee-jerk response to the application of labels, especially when I feel the issue is much too complex to warrant anything of the kind.

The linearity of the dialogue is an issue with all of the character development in BioWare's games before Dragon Age II, it's true (I think DA2 did an exceedingly brilliant job of making that a seemingly more organic and believable process), but reading as much into what isn't said as what is actually deal with implies a lot regarding Jack's character, I believe.

She never makes excuses for what she's done to survive, nor does she ever tolerate someone questioning her integrity. Ultimately, she doesn't break down in tears because an external force made her see the fuzzy puppy-dog she really is inside, but because she's come to the realisation that she might have a chance at something more. It's as much of an achievement to that character, probably even more so, than it might feel to the player.

Also, regarding Jack's alleged sex scene, I actually doubt there was anything more to it than that kiss and prolonged embrace. At least I hope so, as I find the idea of Shepard getting it on with a sobbing Jack to be more than a little disquieting.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

What saddens me most about the characters are the fact that they don't interact with each other. At last count, there's three moments where any interact. When Garrus/Tali are with you on the Citadel, and on the ship for Jack/Miranda's and Tali/Legion's loyalty conflicts.

But that's it. And I think it was worse for it. Yeah, Mass Effect 1's elevators were a pain, but at least we got to hear the characters talk to each other, which was great. But you don't need elevators to do that, Dragon Age 1 and 2 had many moments where the people in your party would talk to each other. And in Dragon Age 2 when you talk to your companions there's a chance they're talking to another of your companions. It just makes them feel more like deep, interesting people, and I really hope ME3 has party banter. And just more to talk about, so to avoid the whole "three conversations then calibrations forever" thing ME2 had going on with almost all of the characters you didn't decide to romance.

Agreed on the party banter, but I want to take it a bit further. Have them move around the Normandy sometime! Everyone stands still and never leaves their spots. The only person with justification for this is Joker but he's a cripple.

Have them move around, interact a bit. Its a working military vessel.

Hey wait a minute, we know that the Alliance confiscated the SR2 in ME3 right? What'll happen to the Cerberus crew? will they be replaced, arrested, reintegrated into the alliance?

 

[Zhukov]

I never know quite what to do with topics like this.

I suppose I could take an hour or so to thoroughly write out my opinions and attempt to overturn the OP's points, such as they are. But really, what's the point? It won't change anybody's mind and I'll probably just end up looking like a rabid fanboy.

So, with that in mind, here's the quick version:

- Yeah, true enough, Shepard doesn't get any good character development. It's an unfortunate side effect of being a player-defined character (at least partly). They don't want to take the character in a direction that the player doesn't agree with, which tends to result in no direction at all. Also, yes, some of his/her lines are really corny. It's a Bioware thing. I wish they'd stop it.

- Jack. She's blabbering because she's angry, desperate and probably scared. She was just pulled out of a freezer cell, tore her way through mechs, guards and whatever else only to find that Cerberus are on the scene. I'd say a little blabbering is justified. As for explaining the bounty, uh... because Shepard asked. Duh.

- Miranda. Never did the romance, can't comment. As for not shooting Niket, he was her one and only childhood friend. Gee, how could that possibly cause her to hesitate. And she'll still shoot him if you let her.

- Thane. I was never his biggest fan, so not much to say. I did find the stuff he says about the responsibility of his actions interesting though.

In short, the I find the notion that ME2 has "some of the weakest writing out there" to be downright laughable. I'll be the first to admit that it's far, far from perfect, but "weakest"? Phht.

 

[Xaio30]

I agree with you.

And to those who keeps nagging about the Codex: Three-dimensional characters should be that by nature. They should not need to hand out a pamphlet every time they meet someone to ensure them that they are interesting.

 

[Emerson White]

Really.Mass Effect has some of the weakest writing ever made.I can't even express how much I want to smack you up side your oh,so soft head.if you make such a bold statement,at least back it up with some sort of argument that isn't blatantly stupid.Yeah it doesn't make sense that the characters don't use their biotics as powerful as the cutscenes,as in,you now,in Call of Duty and Halo they just don't nuke every single thing that moves,because yeah that would solve the problem,but it wouldn't be much fun,and probably not very smart since you couldn't use any of their resources afterwords.

and your argument on the characters is just pathetic,your telling me that Sheppard has to be a one minded douche nozzle,that cannot think two ways about anything?it's like saying that you hate Ice cream or pie just as much as the guy that just shot you in the face.the whole point of his character is for YOU to decide who he is,if he's a galactic hero,a vigilante rouge,or a brute conquestor.

And your argument on Jack being inconsistent is even worse.she's inconsistant because she's supposed to be mentally BROKEN,she can't decide whether to be good or bad because she has been treated like garbage on both sides.And really,choosing Miranda as your favorite character does say allot about you,since she's the most annoyingly arrogant person in the entire game,and I suppose you can relate.But then again,boobs.Thane?I actually agree with you on him.He REALLY needed to be more fleshed out then that to be a likable character.

but even as you just made a point I enjoyed,you go "oh gee,I'm really tired after typing all that genius,I guess I worked hard enough to make myself super duper clear." and just stopped.seriously?all you've said is how the characters and biotics are inconsistent,HOW DOES THAT MAKE THE WRITING BAD?and even then,it will never be the worst writing in a game as long as it has some story,since games like Pumpkin head's revenge make you shoot snot out of you dick at evil rabbit/semen monsters,who afterwords turn into a portal to a really stupid railshooter type thing where all you do is take gems out of stones while going down a waterslide,FOR NO REASON.

I just really,really hate you by now...I...I can't believe how angry I can get over this.And one last thing.Saying "Don't worry,I'm not trolling or anything" doesn't mean your not trolling.in fact,you probably would be.and you are.Well Good night Irene.

 

[SpaceBat]

Jolee Bindo isn't your noble Jedi or villainous Sith archetype, he's a Jedi who views the galaxy in shades of grey. He shares a lot of compelling and meaningful stories that shaped his moral stance. He basically turns the Light and Dark Side his *****.

Shit, sorry. I entirely agree on this, because Jolee Bindo is my most favorite character of the entire game. I forgot to add him to the list, since as you may have noticed, I didn't add him to the list of characters that aren't deep.

Mission may seem like your typical wise cracking, street-punk. But she has a strong sense of responsibility and companionship. Juhani is a Jedi who's conflicted to understand what is good and evil to follow Jedi Light Side doctrine. I used to hate Carth, but after giving him a second chance, I have to admit he's not so bad and no where near as whiny people make him out to be. He's a honorable and kind-hearted soldier, who has a troubled past that made him mistrusting of others.

Which is what I said. They DO have character development, but the things you mentioned still doesn't make them actual good and deep characters. During the entire game, you only get one or two missions that somewhat explain their character and that's basically it (aside from a few very short conversations here and there). There's nothing more. They're not further integrated into the entire storyline, they don't express their emotions more often. We aren't diving deeper into the character, dissecting the multiple layers of her mind and it just stops at stuff like "This is mission. She has a strong sense of responsibility and companionship. The end.". That isn't what makes a good character IMO.

I could easily criticize Garrus for being two-dimensional. Don't get me wrong though, he's actually one of my favorite squadmates. He's relatable, as he's a conflicted individual in seek of guidance. He struggling between the lines of what is justice and what isn't. However, it's never properly explored when every single one of his personal motivations devolves into a "can I haz revenge?" saga. It really makes his character one-note, and while his issue with Sidonis is more personal than Saleon's, it's still another cliche revenge story. I wouldn't be surprised if he has personal vendetta against a random asshole who cheated him off in a gambling game on Omega or something.

I know. I never said he's deep. I just said that most of Kotor's cast is just as bland as most of ME's cast. I just like Garrus for the same reason I like HK-47. Neither of them are actual deep characters, but they make up for it for me by being awesome.

Also, the music in KOTOR was just fine. It would only be ubiquitous if they rehashed the original soundtrack of the movies. Instead, they hired award-winning music composer Jeremy Soule to create an different score. The music actually sounds a lot different than the Star Wars movies, it's far more serene and less bombastic. In fact, the soundtrack is more reminiscent to D&D RPG soundtracks. It's no surprise, as Jeremy Soule has composed music for D&D style RPGs, even BioWare's Baldur's Gate II and Neverwinter Nights.

Hmm, I was somewhat rushing with that one. I didn't remember much about the soundtrack, so I was going by what I remembered. If you're truly right, which I'm about to find out, then I'll take back that part of my argument.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

it really seems like you are nitpicking here...i would be inclined to agree if you were maybe picking at the main plot, because the characters were just fine, if not some of the best that have been around in the past few years. and did you not pay attention to the codex or the world around you? because it explains so freaking much, if you ignored that stuff then your nitpicks are doomed to fail.

 

[Neonsilver]

Biotics are some of the galaxy's most powerful individuals, capable of manipulating the physical world in so many ways. That doesn't come across at all in Mass Effect 2. Not only is everyone's power on a universal recharge timer (Jack's biotic antics in the above video really don't work when she can only push one person at a time, then wait for five seconds to do it again), they can't work if their enemy is using an electronic shield. Confusing? Yeah. I really didn't know that kinetic barriers could undo the power of gravitational forces, but I guess they can now! Also, on a side note, the story screws with the gameplay quite a bit. According to Lair of the Shadow Broker, Thane has a million moves with which he can kill any enemies. However, you go into combat and he takes cover and shoots people with an assault rifle. Sweet moves, Thane! The same things happens with Garrus: his experience as a leader of combat squads doesn't come into play until literally the last mission.

That barriers/shields/armor block biotic and other abilities is really the worst gameplay decision. It makes most squad members useless on higher difficulties.
But how I understood the lore of the game, biotics and kinetic barriers are basicaly the same. The electronic shields create a mass effect field that repels incoming projectiles.

Thane is an assassin, he may have lots of ways to kill someone, but it is probably pretty hard to use them in an open fight.

What should Garrus do, there is no room for 2 leaders in a squad with only 3 men.

 

[Woodsey]

Evidently you haven't played many games.

Personally, I thought the characters were - for the most part - well written and 3-dimensional. Which is rather important, considering its a character-piece.

Its rather hard to criticise Shepard specific arc when you're the person in charge of it.

I try and steer away from going, "hey! Look at all these same-old character types," because you can do it with virtually anything. A trope is not a cliché.

Way to back up your argument with evidence.
Basically all mass effect 2 fans who try to defend it's story are like this I've seen.
It's got a great story and 3d characters. Really?

What about the fact that shepard's death means nothing, that they don't fully use the mass effect universe as it was presented in the first game (Biotics are no longer a big thing, no more actual different factions wanting different things,etc. . .) and that GOD AWFUL scene, you know the one. The one that goes like: Let's get all the capable, strong team members on this one ship and fly off, even though we never did this before and have no reason to do so now. What's the worst that could happen?)

And you are not in charge of shepard. Not when the dialogue options you are presented with go like this:

Yes
I guess
Yes, BUT. . .

And now tell me where I defended its story.

I haven't played the game since before this time last year, I remember what I thought at the time, I'm a little hazy on specific stuff - I could pull it out of my arse, but I don't really care enough.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Honestly, I found the problems with the writing and design choices were a result of the writers ultimately trying to emulate Hollywood and failing at it. But yeah, you're right in a lot of aspects.

 

[blizzaradragon]

Which is why I'm pissed off at Kotor 2 for being so goddamn incredibly incomplete and rushed, because that game, if it was complete and not rushed (gameplay, ending et cetera) would have absolutely destroyed the first game.

Well if you have it on PC you can get the restoration patch that was made, it adds a bunch of stuff back into the game and makes it so much more epic.

OT: While people may consider the writing weak or the characters one-dimensional or cliche, what matters is that it WORKS. Plus, compared to most games over the video game lifespan the writing and characters are absolutely astounding. Bioware is one of the few companies that actually puts time into writing a good story, while most devs will focus on action and explosions and throw in plot as a passing thought. The Mass Effect series has some of Bioware's best writing, and true it isn't a literary masterpiece it is still good as far as games and even movies go.

 

[Woodsey]

Evidently you haven't played many games.

Personally, I thought the characters were - for the most part - well written and 3-dimensional. Which is rather important, considering its a character-piece.

Its rather hard to criticise Shepard specific arc when you're the person in charge of it.

I try and steer away from going, "hey! Look at all these same-old character types," because you can do it with virtually anything. A trope is not a cliché.

Way to back up your argument with evidence.
Basically all mass effect 2 fans who try to defend it's story are like this I've seen.
It's got a great story and 3d characters. Really?

What about the fact that shepard's death means nothing, that they don't fully use the mass effect universe as it was presented in the first game (Biotics are no longer a big thing, no more actual different factions wanting different things,etc. . .) and that GOD AWFUL scene, you know the one. The one that goes like: Let's get all the capable, strong team members on this one ship and fly off, even though we never did this before and have no reason to do so now. What's the worst that could happen?)

And you are not in charge of shepard. Not when the dialogue options you are presented with go like this:

Yes
I guess
Yes, BUT. . .

And now tell me where I defended its story.

"Personally, I thought the characters were - for the most part - well written and 3-dimensional. Which is rather important, considering its a character-piece. "

Yeah, the game focuses mostly on characters. Therefore character-piece. The actual plot suffers from second-in-the-trilogy syndrome. I didn't defend its story at all.

 

[Bento Box]

What annoyed me most about the writing in Mass Effect 2 was how many big, pivotal concepts they introduced and then glossed over. Consider Shepard's resurrection. The guy came back from the dead. In our culture today, we obsess over anyone who's been dead for a few seconds. They make the talk show circuits, we grill them about bright lights and did they see their family, etc. In ME2, no one mentions it.

Hell, Shepard himself doesn't mention it. He's just died and come back to life, and he's perfectly fine with it. There's no existential crisis. He doesn't look in the mirror at the amount of cybernetics keeping him functional and wonder at his humanity. Which makes me think he's not very human, as that just doesn't seem like the sort of reaction you'd expect from someone in that situation.

I know it's a game. But saying it's just a game cheapens the medium. Video games can be art like anything else, and if we're going to make statements like that, than we need to address the human condition the same as any other artform. If this were a book or even a film, you could damn well be sure there'd be some serious reflection about the nature of death after Shepard's resurrection. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer did that.

Sorry, but as a transhumanist and an optimistic secularist, I don't see a lot of trouble with 1: not asking about seeing family or 2: an existential crisis. Let me explain.

As a secularist -
In Mass Effect we're dealing with a bright future: one where science has done all kinds of awesome science-y things like space travel and alien encounters and stuff. Religion plays a smaller role in society, as a society increasingly embraces the fruits and methods of secular science. In the Mass Effect universe, he likely didn't get interviews about OOBE's or dead relatives' spirits because that kind of thinking is in the same kind of fringe superstition as dowsers, psychics (half-irony), ghosts, sasquatch, etc.

As a transhumanist -
In Mass Effect we're dealing with a bright future: one where science has done all kinds of awesome science-y things like realistic prostheses and microchips in the brain that let you shoot brain-lasers and talk to an elcor like you were talking to your next-door neighbor (who, I suppose, could be an elcor). Being brought back to life is a big deal, sure, but having your life extended through technology? Please.

Do you wear glasses? Have you ever had a cast? Maybe an operation - bonus points if it was a minimally invasive procedure performed with micro-filament cameras and fucking laser beams. Defibrillators, pace-makers, liquid oxygen, the Life Alert system, every computer in a hospital and a simple pair of spectacles -- every one of these things is and example of technology extending and improving your life. It doesn't make you less human; it makes you human+, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[johnnnny guitar]

Yeah I got to say even as a fan of this series its got some pretty sloppy writing