Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

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Elfgore

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Just finished watching it and I must say, it was pretty damn awesome. Still like Episode III the best, but a solid runner-up. I like all the characters for the most part, fight scenes were good, and I liked the story.

But there is a big issue. Who the fuck are all of these factions. The First Order, The Resistance, and the Republic were given no backstory what so ever in this film. Why is the Rebellion still a thing when the god damn Republic exists? How did the First Order come to be? None of this is explained and from the sound of things I either have to read the books, and going by what I've seen of those I'd rather have my eyes plucked out, or read the wiki. I should never have to do that to understand stuff like this.

Oh, and Kylo Ren is nothing more than a whiny ***** who is a total creeper.
 

wizzy555

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Elfgore said:
Just finished watching it and I must say, it was pretty damn awesome. Still like Episode III the best, but a solid runner-up. I like all the characters for the most part, fight scenes were good, and I liked the story.

But there is a big issue. Who the fuck are all of these factions. The First Order, The Resistance, and the Republic were given no backstory what so ever in this film. Why is the Rebellion still a thing when the god damn Republic exists? How did the First Order come to be? None of this is explained and from the sound of things I either have to read the books, and going by what I've seen of those I'd rather have my eyes plucked out, or read the wiki. I should never have to do that to understand stuff like this.

Oh, and Kylo Ren is nothing more than a whiny ***** who is a total creeper.
Ironically, it needed more senate scenes.
 

Zontar

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wizzy555 said:
Ironically, it needed more senate scenes.
It also could have used more of the single greatest show stealer in the history of Star Wars.

 

Recusant

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A couple of things I haven't seen mentioned (sorry if I missed them) and elaborations...
-A force of troopers lands on Jakku to find the missing map, their leader finds the person who had it, briefly and fruitlessly interrogates him, then unambiguously murders him. While this does mirror the Empire's "Kill everyone who might be able to provide you with information" approach from A New Hope, it isn't any less stupid now than it was then.

-We see a stormtrooper shot with a blaster collapse, then trail blood from his hand when Fin goes to help him. How does a blaster create wounds that bleed? Yes, Ren bled after Chewbacca shot him, but a bowcaster fires a physical bolt; that makes sense. You could say the trooper simply scraped their hand against a rock as they fell, but stormtroopers wear armored gloves; that doesn't work. I realize it was necessary to somehow visually distinguish Fin from the other troopers, and blood
always works for provoking a visceral reaction, but as someone who went in trying to enjoy the movie and not pick nits, it was kind of a glaring oversight (if, that is, you're the kind of person who notices that sort of thing).

-Starkiller base is the successor to the Death Star: a superweapon that will destroy the bulk of the enemy's ability to resist and reduce all other opposition to terrified submission. Again, the exact relationship of the Order to the Empire is unclear, but the only difference here is whether the base is seen as "the tool that will let us reclaim our proper glory, for we ARE the empire" or "the tool that will show we are greater than the empire ever was, for we have taken up its fallen flags and ideologies and supassed them"; it's almost as important as a symbol than as a military installation. With that in mind, the superlaser is not, flat out NOT, going to be referred to as "the weapon". "Begin charging the weapon". "The weapon will be ready to fire in thirty seconds". "Fire the weapon". We're not discussing secret plans, here; these are not the things you say when talking about the fully assembled and functional doomsday machine.

-So apparently TIE Fighters now have a rear turret, a seat for a second gunner, a hyperdrive (Fin's comments about needing to escape Jakku don't make much sense otherwise), environmental sealing, and carry missiles AND mag pulses as a standard loadout, but aren't any bigger than they were before? Note they're the same visual design, and they're still called "TIE Fighters"; the tech could've advanced in the intervening decades, but a revision that radical to a core design would've sent the
price through the roof- a rather odd choice, considering that Seinar's biggest customer would have, at the very least, undergone some big changes; it's woefully unclear what exactly the relationship of the First Order to the Empire is, which leads into my next point:

-The lack of worldbuilding is a big immersion-breaker. At least, it was for me, knowing a good bit about the world and its background. Apparently the New Republic and the Resistance are separate organizations, unless that's just First Order propaganda, but then why wouldn't the Republic fleet attack Starkiller base? Sure, they might not arrive in time to save the Resistance HQ, but if a number of their planets are wiped out by a superweapon, they're not going to stay uninvolved for long. And if they are uninvolved, why would the Order make such a blatantly provocative attack on someone they're not fighting yet before finishing the enemy they are? Okay, you may have destroyed their capital and thrown their administration into disarray, but "weapon that can destroy a planet" isn't exactly a new thing here; any organization is going to have multiple layers of redundancy to avoid collapse when facing that threat. Perhaps the Order doesn't see the Resistance as a real threat; understandable, given that they're fighting an enemmy capable of building a superlaser that fires a MIRVing projectile that's superluminal, but that you can see coming (try to figure that one out) into a planet, which they can somehow "aim" (good luck with that one, too) and the "everything we've got" sum total of their military force is 12 X-wings. Really, even a simple "this is all we have that can get there in time" throwaway line would've softened the stupidity of that. You've built (well, rebuilt, or modified, or whatever word you want to use) an interesting world here, Mister Abrams; one I find myself wanting to know more about- that's a good sign. And I realize you want to avoid weighing people down with exposition, but if you won't show us OR tell us about it, it won't feel real. But that's not the only problem that holding out on us gives:

-Why is the Order so concerned with hunting down Luke? Okay, a resurgent Jedi Order could be both a major military threat and a source of confusion when people refer to "the Order". But Luke's in self-imposed exile, and training even one Jedi takes years. Why not simply destroy the droid and let the Resistance waste time looking for Luke and trying to persuede him to return while you beat the Republic into submission? There could be legitimate reasons to not do so, but it's never even
suggested. Ren (and I do deeply appreciate that apparently Disney has realized you can, in fact, have a dark Jedi that doesn't have "Darth" in their name) doesn't seem to have the rank or diplomatic power that Vader did; why is this such a priority? Well...

-The electrotonfa trooper that Fin fights managed to hold his own against someone using a lightsaber. As nice as it was to see the troopers given some nonleathal weapons, what the heck was it made of? Cortosis? Why would you use something like that on a policing weapon? It dawned on me as I left the theater that perhaps the white weapon and blue-white saber blade had never actually made contact; that he'd simply been hitting the hilt, or Fin's hand or arm. But the trooper'd only do that if he'd been trained to fight Jedi- and why would you do that when there's only one Jedi, who's living in seclusion? I can buy "this guy is a seriously powerful potential opponent; we need to hunt him down before he trains more", but "the threat is so great that we need to train all our troops to deal with a potential attack that only comes from him"? That's pushing it.

-For that matter, Fin rejects the violent brutality of stormtrooping upon seeing what it actually entails- fair enough, I probably would too. But the speed and, dare I say it, glee with which he turns on and kills his former allies is more than a little disturbing. Remember, to him, these aren't faceless, identityless hordes; they're the people he grew up wih and trained alongside, and even if he can put that aside, he knows it could just as easily be him under one of those helmets.
Granted, they may be doing awful things, but he knows they're indoctrinated and brainwashed and still doesn't hesitate before slaughtering them wholesale. I found myself wondering, more than once, whether he wasn't actually some deep-cover mole, as much of a stormtrooper as ever.
 

Silvanus

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BloatedGuppy said:
Thought, yes. Anger, no.

It's one thing when people pop their tops and start flinging insults in one of the politically charged threads, there are deeply held beliefs being challenged and expressed. This is a movie. If someone doesn't share your opinion of a movie and your response to that is to bluster and accuse them of "white knighting", you've lost the plot.

All IMHO, of course.
Well, that seems fair.

Unless it's really a documentary, of course.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Recusant said:
A force of troopers lands on Jakku to find the missing map, their leader finds the person who had it, briefly and fruitlessly interrogates him, then unambiguously murders him. While this does mirror the Empire's "Kill everyone who might be able to provide you with information" approach from A New Hope, it isn't any less stupid now than it was then.
Makes slightly more sense in Kylo Ren's case, given his apparent mental stability relative to Vader's (IE, not very).

Recusant said:
We see a stormtrooper shot with a blaster collapse, then trail blood from his hand when Fin goes to help him. How does a blaster create wounds that bleed?
I wasn't clear what wounded said trooper. It was brought up in one of the first reaction threads I read, and there was speculation the trooper could have been injured by shrapnel or a projectile weapon. I'll look more closely when I re-watch. Blasters should cauterize, yes?

Recusant said:
"Fire the weapon". We're not discussing secret plans, here; these are not the things you say when talking about the fully assembled and functional doomsday machine.
I think Hux and many others of the First Order view themselves as no-nonsense, but it's an amusing consideration.

Recusant said:
So apparently TIE Fighters now have a rear turret, a seat for a second gunner, a hyperdrive (Fin's comments about needing to escape Jakku don't make much sense otherwise), environmental sealing, and carry missiles AND mag pulses as a standard loadout, but aren't any bigger than they were before?
I've always wondered about this. I wondered about it in the OT as well, when Luke repeatedly uses his X-Wing for long cross-galactic purposes. Always felt like those small interceptor fighters wouldn't have the range.

Recusant said:
The lack of worldbuilding is a big immersion-breaker.
Yep. They did provide context OUTSIDE the film, but seemed very reluctant to get into it INSIDE the film. A misstep, in my opinion. There were two lengthy sequences mid-film (Han's smuggler ship and Maz's cantina) that felt a bit limp...either could and probably should have been truncated in favor of some quiet time and carefully written exposition. Give the characters an opportunity to bond and fill in some of the broad strokes, like The First Order being a relatively shadowy organization, or the resistance being Leia Organa's tiny personal army.

Recusant said:
Why is the Order so concerned with hunting down Luke?
It's a good question and one of the things I believe the filmmakers intended to keep us in the dark about. If Snoke is the puppetmaster behind the First Order, I guess we can assume the unhealthy obsession with the Jedi stems from him. Seems in keeping with how the Sith felt about the Jedi, although whether Snoke has any relation to the Sith isn't clear.

Recusant said:
The electrotonfa trooper that Fin fights managed to hold his own against someone using a lightsaber. As nice as it was to see the troopers given some nonleathal weapons, what the heck was it made of? Cortosis?
Yeah that part annoys me. We've never seen Cortosis in the films before, so you can't just casually toss it in there without at least ONE expository throw away line explaining its existence. And for the love of god, if you're going to give a Stormtrooper a shine moment, why wouldn't you give it to PHASMA. WHAT ELSE IS SHE THERE FOR. Other than to sell Captain Phasma toys, of course.

Recusant said:
For that matter, Fin rejects the violent brutality of stormtrooping upon seeing what it actually entails- fair enough, I probably would too. But the speed and, dare I say it, glee with which he turns on and kills his former allies is more than a little disturbing. Remember, to him, these aren't faceless, identityless hordes; they're the people he grew up wih and trained alongside, and even if he can put that aside, he knows it could just as easily be him under one of those helmets.
Yeah you're not the first one to bring this up. Feels like a casualty of the film's overstuffed nature, everything is forced to develop at a breakneck pace, from alignment shifts to friendships to Point A-B travel. It seems churlish to chide a Star Wars film of all things for moving too quickly, but the film really could have benefited from even another fifteen minutes (and slightly more judicious use of the time it DID have available) just to smooth some of that stuff out.
 

Jux

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BloatedGuppy said:
I always got the feeling his "training" was more preventative medicine. Like hey kid, you're a super hero. Here's how to not accidentally become a super villain. Not "Hang with us and we'll teach you telekinesis!".
This, and perhaps as a way to refine ones natural skills. To use a rather clumsy analogy, I am self taught when it comes to playing pool. My motor control is pretty good, I understand the basics behind the physics, as well as some fundamental strategy, but I could certainly see how having a professional teacher would make me even better. It certainly seemed like most of Luke's on screen training dealt with Ben and Yoda trying to teach him to not be impulsive and angry. The only 'technical' training I can think of off the top of my head was the blind folded lightsaber training in the Falcon where Ben is trying to teach him to 'feel with the Force'. Sure, maybe Yoda having him run through the jungle doing flips and stuff might count too, body conditioning etc, but that might be a stretch.

The only part of TFA I found cringe worthy was the exposition between Leia and Han. It felt so forced... just didn't like it. Everything else I felt was a pretty solid 'reboot' for lack of a better word.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Jux said:
This, and perhaps as a way to refine ones natural skills. To use a rather clumsy analogy, I am self taught when it comes to playing pool. My motor control is pretty good, I understand the basics behind the physics, as well as some fundamental strategy, but I could certainly see how having a professional teacher would make me even better. It certainly seemed like most of Luke's on screen training dealt with Ben and Yoda trying to teach him to not be impulsive and angry. The only 'technical' training I can think of off the top of my head was the blind folded lightsaber training in the Falcon where Ben is trying to teach him to 'feel with the Force'. Sure, maybe Yoda having him run through the jungle doing flips and stuff might count too, body conditioning etc, but that might be a stretch.
I always felt like him running around with Yoda was so the audience had a touchstone for "training montage". Yoda never says anything like "Woeful your endurance is, fifty more laps" or "Practice your jabs, you must". Every word out of his mouth is about controlling and regulating motion, extinguishing doubt and fear, and about how the Force is a mystical power that transcends more mundane and earth bound concerns like physical size or strength. If you can reach out and touch the Force, you can do exceptional things, seems to be the message. Yoda expects Luke to IMMEDIATELY lift that ship out of the bog, and seems disappointed/disgusted when he doesn't. He's not like "First practice with small rocks, we shall, build up your Force muscles we must".

The whole concept of "Jedi Training" in the original film vs the prequel trilogies is wildly different. I have no idea what kind of training they get up to in the EU. Maybe they DO all go to "Jedi Hogwarts" and spend a bunch of time practicing flips and shit. If they do, well...that's stupid.

Jux said:
The only part of TFA I found cringe worthy was the exposition between Leia and Han. It felt so forced... just didn't like it. Everything else I felt was a pretty solid 'reboot' for lack of a better word.
The clunkiness of it is why I'm slightly forgiving of some of the galaxy-state expository information not being there. I don't know if there was a natural way to get them talking about the homicidal kid they had off-screen, but if there was, the script writers didn't find it.
 

BaronVH

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Elfgore said:
Just finished watching it and I must say, it was pretty damn awesome. Still like Episode III the best, but a solid runner-up. I like all the characters for the most part, fight scenes were good, and I liked the story.

But there is a big issue. Who the fuck are all of these factions. The First Order, The Resistance, and the Republic were given no backstory what so ever in this film. Why is the Rebellion still a thing when the god damn Republic exists? How did the First Order come to be? None of this is explained and from the sound of things I either have to read the books, and going by what I've seen of those I'd rather have my eyes plucked out, or read the wiki. I should never have to do that to understand stuff like this.

Oh, and Kylo Ren is nothing more than a whiny ***** who is a total creeper.
The confusing factions was my only issue with the movie, then I saw it again and love the way it was handled. Here is why: This movie had the balls to throw you into the deep end. You are jumping into a spot in time and have to figure it out. There is not a boring beginning like "trade routes in dispute." Yes, the rebels won, but somehow this Snoke projection managed to organize remnants from the rebellion into a facist army. The rebels set up a New Republic on a different planet who secretly funds the resistance. The movie could have explained all of this, but then it would have slowed down the awesome pace it maintains, and I wouldn't be thinking about all of this. It also makes me eagerly anticipate the next film. I have not had this level of anticipation since I learned who Luke's dad was. And for those who say that movies should not leave these things open, these aren't normal movies. They are not. This is Star Wars. And they just managed to make Star Wars fun again. Sure, people will be upset that the story is not how they wanted it to be, but due to the vague aspect of the back story, now we all get to discover it again.
 

Jux

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BloatedGuppy said:
The whole concept of "Jedi Training" in the original film vs the prequel trilogies is wildly different. I have no idea what kind of training they get up to in the EU. Maybe they DO all go to "Jedi Hogwarts" and spend a bunch of time practicing flips and shit. If they do, well...that's stupid.
Well, I don't really see how Yoda and Ben would have had the option to teach Luke the way kids were taught in the prequels (I refuse to use the word 'younglings'. I find that word so grating for some reason). Ben was basically trying to put him on a crash course for not turning to the dark side, with maybe a little technical training here and there. He had a little bit of Jinn in him with the 'bucking authority/conventional wisdom' imo, which is why he took Luke on in the first place. Yoda was more old guard, and straight up said 'he's too old/too much anger, he'll end up like vader', and pretty much just caved when he realized Luke was going to be a part of these events, so he might as well try to help him as best he could.

Post RotJ, in EU, I seem to remember the training for Jacen, Jaina, Tenel-ka and the others being somewhat less formal than we saw in the prequels. I think it was said that Luke realized the rigidity of the old institution was part of what led to the downfall of the Jedi, so he took on more of a boy scout leader role in training, as opposed to drill sarge.
 

Glongpre

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I think it was alright. I wasn't disappointed, but I wasn't blown away.

The best parts for me were with Han and Chewie.

I was talking with my brother after and really, the story is shit. There could have used some way better storylines rather than rehashing a new hope.

The movie is called the force awakens. Ok, so Snoke feels this awakening from ONE PERSON!!! I figured a bunch of people around the galaxy are finding they are developing some supernatural ability. Nope just some girl.
They should have had the resistance and the first order traveling around the galaxy recruiting these force awakened individuals. They would be building up to a big sith vs jedi fight in episode 9.
We thought it would have been better to use Phasma as some kind of bounty hunter/jedi hunter, so she could atleast have some screentime. She wasn't intimidating or anything, a very pointless character.

So the movie should have been Ren and Phasma going around at the command of Snoke, to bring back awakened people for dark side training. The resistance obviously would be trying to get these people first to prevent a sith army. Since Luke is gone, that is all they can do for now. Once they find him, they have to convince him to begin another school, and he reluctantly does so after seeing what Ren is capable of, and feels he must stop him, his previous student.

Also Finn was acted well, but the character itself was terrible. So an indoctrinated stormtrooper who should have no personality, becomes a comedic relief, hates killing yet instantly turns around and kills a bunch of troopers. lol. Also can use a lightsaber no prob despite no training, and so far no indication he can feel the force. Right.

I thought Rey was good. Good acting, solid performance. I don't know where they can go with her origins though, seems like they wouldn't make a lot of sense. Is she Luke's daughter? Why doesn't she know him, and why was she left on the planet? Is she Han's daughter? Why doesn't she know him, and why was she left on the planet? It seemed like they were building up to one of those. "The droid is with a girl" and Ren acts all concerned. Maybe he felt the force in her already. I think she is just a random girl with a force affinity, which is fine.
Also when Rey battled Ren for the lightsaber and won, was pretty rad. Then they played the lightside music :D

The use of the force was awesome as well. It really felt weighty. Ren seems like a really powerful force user, more like Palpatine, rather than a saber specialist.
 

Jux

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Recusant said:
-The lack of worldbuilding is a big immersion-breaker. At least, it was for me, knowing a good bit about the world and its background. Apparently the New Republic and the Resistance are separate organizations, unless that's just First Order propaganda, but then why wouldn't the Republic fleet attack Starkiller base?
http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10634568/star-wars-the-force-awakens-spoilers-republic-first-order

One possible explanation for this, hoping they clarify it in the next movie though.


BloatedGuppy said:
Yeah that part annoys me. We've never seen Cortosis in the films before, so you can't just casually toss it in there without at least ONE expository throw away line explaining its existence. And for the love of god, if you're going to give a Stormtrooper a shine moment, why wouldn't you give it to PHASMA. WHAT ELSE IS SHE THERE FOR. Other than to sell Captain Phasma toys, of course.
Could have been an electrostaff/phrik, which is canon in the prequels, at least according to the wookiepedia entry.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrostaff
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phrik/Legends (listed as legends, but under 'appearances' Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith is clearly listed, so not sure what's up with that)
 

IOwnTheSpire

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Glongpre said:
I was talking with my brother after and really, the story is shit. There could have used some way better storylines rather than rehashing a new hope.

The movie is called the force awakens. Ok, so Snoke feels this awakening from ONE PERSON!!! I figured a bunch of people around the galaxy are finding they are developing some supernatural ability. Nope just some girl.
They should have had the resistance and the first order traveling around the galaxy recruiting these force awakened individuals. They would be building up to a big sith vs jedi fight in episode 9.
We thought it would have been better to use Phasma as some kind of bounty hunter/jedi hunter, so she could atleast have some screentime. She wasn't intimidating or anything, a very pointless character.

So the movie should have been Ren and Phasma going around at the command of Snoke, to bring back awakened people for dark side training. The resistance obviously would be trying to get these people first to prevent a sith army. Since Luke is gone, that is all they can do for now. Once they find him, they have to convince him to begin another school, and he reluctantly does so after seeing what Ren is capable of, and feels he must stop him, his previous student.
Those stories may have been better, but you have to judge the movie based on what it is, not what you think it should have been.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Glongpre said:
They should have had the resistance and the first order traveling around the galaxy recruiting these force awakened individuals. They would be building up to a big sith vs jedi fight in episode 9.
As someone who was a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and saw the series go from "A Chosen One" to "A room full of Chosen Ones" in season seven, please believe me when I say A) You don't want this, and B) It would not have improved the film.

In order to effect proper characterization, you need to spend time with the same individuals. Lots of time. TFA was overflowing with characters that needed attention and screen time as it was. If anything it needs LESS scale and MORE emphasis on small, personal moments.
 

rosac

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I... Really enjoyed it.

I avoided spoilers, and the movie was full of "freakin' sweet" moments for me.

Kylo Ren is not vader, and I think comparing them is a mistake. He's not a faceless semi-automaton who simply does his masters bidding. He's genuinely conflicted, tempted by the light side (which makes a nice change to everyone being a light side-r being tempted by the dark side and the dark side-rs all being evul and irredeemable unless in extreme circumstances) and clearly a rookie.

It had blaster battles, space battles, lightsabre battles, the force being used in a variety of ways, a dramatic death, humour, some character building and changed things about the force/empire/general world

Maybe I'm just a popcorn munching member of the public who doesn;t really have a massive attachment to star wars or any real knowledge of cinematography, but I wasn't the mona lisa of cinema. It delivered what I wanted, and then some.

EDIT: Also guys, most of your "plot holes" (how did the sabre end up there for example) will probably be explained in the next 4 hours of the trilogy, we've got quite a bit of time left
 

Glongpre

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BloatedGuppy said:
Glongpre said:
They should have had the resistance and the first order traveling around the galaxy recruiting these force awakened individuals. They would be building up to a big sith vs jedi fight in episode 9.
As someone who was a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and saw the series go from "A Chosen One" to "A room full of Chosen Ones" in season seven, please believe me when I say A) You don't want this, and B) It would not have improved the film.

In order to effect proper characterization, you need to spend time with the same individuals. Lots of time. TFA was overflowing with characters that needed attention and screen time as it was. If anything it needs LESS scale and MORE emphasis on small, personal moments.
The recruits would just be filler, they don't really need characterization, they are just the fodder.

EDIT:

It wouldn't be chosen one to a room full of chosen ones, as you say. There would still be the clear main characters, the other awakened humanoids would just be background. You can't tell me you never wanted to see a big jedi vs sith battle :p

And the shit I made up does have less scale! It went from huge space drama with a planet sized death star, to a few people on either side searching for recruits, eventually building to a big battle.
 

SilverUchiha

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I'm sure this has been mentioned at least once before and no one will actually pay attention to this post about 9-forum pages in. But I want to throw my two cents in the few things I saw mentioned on the first page I bothered to read through. (Sorry guys, but I'm not gonna actually read all 9 pages of comments when so many come off as very similar).

1 - People seemed a little peeved at Rey suddenly getting the force powers and lightsaber combat down without much effort. But if you guys pay attention to the weird visions she has when she first handles the Skywalker Saber (innuendo?) you see her as a girl, R2 and most likely Luke kneeling, and Kylo with dead bodies. And if we paid attention, they mentioned one of Luke's Students went rogue. This will likely be detailed more heavily in Episode 8, but I'm willing to bet both Ben Solo and Rey were students of Luke among a few others. Ben, believing his lineage would prove to make him the best, fell behind other students, most notably Rey who seems to excel with her gifts. As a result, Ben leaves in search of more power, convinced the dark side his grandfather embraced was truly the strongest. Wanting to prove just how much stronger he was, he repeated Anakin's child-murder-rampage but failed to get Rey. Presumably because Luke was smart enough to send her away before it was too late... or Luke defended her and then sent her away. Why she doesn't remember is likely because of either traumatic events being repressed or because Luke wiped it from her mind at her young age in hopes she would be safer hiding from Kylo Ren in secret. This only leaves the question of why they chose to put her on Jakku and why Luke didn't just finish off Kylo Ren himself when he might have had a chance. Meaning, yes, there are some holes in this theory, but I think it's probably the most promising. But to my main point, it's not that she just did it without effort. It's that all the mind-jarring from Kylo helped unlock that hidden away potential from long ago. But how and why have yet to be explained.

2 - Yes, Kylo Ren is a whiny brat, or at least feels like one. But I can't get enough of that Emo Kylo Ren twitter account. Damn that shit is funny. Ahem. As for the character in the film, I think that the fear of not being able to live up to Vader is true on many different levels. It would make sense that when we see him again he will be much stronger because of the training he will undergo. And I do like his whole "seduced by the light" fear that mirrors what the Jedi have gone through for the dark side. I think we'll come to understand more about Kylo Ren in the next film and what truly pushes him forward. Why does he idolize Vader so much? How does Snoke have such a hold on this boy? And why the fuck does he keep taking his mask off like he's the goddamned Amazing Spiderman? Seriously, you had me with this guy until he took the mask off. Then he was just some dude. Fuck, he looked like some dude I could beat up. And I can't beat up most things. All that intimidation lost. I get why he removes the mask for Han, but that should have been it, really.

3 - I predicted either Han or Chewie would die. And while Han died, I'm actually sadder for Chewie having lost his best friend in the world. I should feel something for Leia since she lost someone she loved, but the relationship Han had with Chewie always felt stronger to me. I wouldn't say like a man and his dog, but something akin to that. Gotta give Chewie props for carrying on and fucking up anyone in his way once Han went down. As for Han, that scene was really well made, even if it was predictable. The lighting was great, acting was spot on, and the build up for it was just about right. I would have liked less mentions of the Han-Kylo family relationship because I feel we were beaten over the head with that one. But it worked out the way I more or less expected.

4 - Finn and Poe were great. I can't say more than that really. Finn was expected to be the hero but was flipped around last minute for a surprisingly good reveal. I enjoyed almost every scene he was in. I especially loved the scene where he's getting chased and tased by Rey and BB-8. I turned to my buddy in the theater and jokingly asked if that was supposed to be a commentary on police brutality. In all seriousness, even though he was doing the Aladdin-method of trying to get in good with the ladies (ie lying your ass off) he was a likeable average guy thrown into a situation well beyond his abilities and managed to scramble through them all reasonably well. I would love to have seen more Poe and I think we'll get that in the next movie (or at least I hope). What little we did see was great.

5 - Yes, the movie does rehash lots of character and narrative beats from Episode IV as well as V and maybe a hint of VI. It really feels like they took the important moments of the original trilogy and crammed them together and then found a good way to connect them. I don't think this does the movie a disservice. It strongly shows the apologetic attitude the studio has towards the prequels and their desire to go back to how things started. But the prequels started off with a similar beat as well if you really think about it. This is nothing new and it's safe to say episode VII did it better than Episode I in many ways. Desert planet, hopeless dreamer on shitty planet, escaping empire on the falcon in dangerous places, droid with secret plans/information to protect, trench run on a death-weapon, a giant death-weapon, confession on a catwalk from a family member, the old guard dying so the next generation can fight on, etc. The whole original trilogy is in this film and that's a double-edged sword. I think we'll see if this strategy paid off in the next film if they start focusing on all new methods and story ideas. If not, then consider this a failed experiment. But I'm confident Disney didn't pay that large money for this IP to waste time repeating the series at infinitude. They're greedy, but they're not stupid.

I could go on... but I want to get to bed. Later!
 

rosac

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Also, to add to my above point, I think Kylo Ren is actually indicative of the New Order as a whole.

The New Order wants to be the empire so bad, but it doesn't seem to have the iron grip over the galaxy the empire had, with the republic wielding a large amount of political power. They don't even have as much control over their troopers, with Finn as the obvious example but also the shock-mace wielder showing frustration and acting irrationally upon seeing Finn. A world apart from the old troopers that didn't appear to let things like emotion get in the way.

This can be directly paralleled to the Ren/Vader comparison in that Ren wants to be as powerful as his grandfather, but his own internal struggles hold him back.

Ren lashes out in frustration when given bad news. The New Order blows up 5 planets out of spite with no real tactical gain. They didn't even 100% know that the republic were harbouring rebels, and it seems to have just been petty revenge.

The fact is that they're both relatively fresh to this world, so eager to make a mark and prove that they're the evilest bastards ever and make stupid choices in doing so.
 

immortalfrieza

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jamail77 said:
The only notable time, that I can think of the top of my head, that a character rejected active Force usage was Kyle Katarn. AND, that was AFTER he thought he'd come too close to turning dark; he was already a Jedi by the time he casted the Force and further more formal training aside (I add that last part because he was mostly self-trained). And, as Star Wars destiny always has it he came back around to it and accepted both the burden and the gift of his Force sensitivity. Of course, he's now not cannon since he's a post Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe/Legacy character.
I like that you brought up Kyle Katarn. Katarn is another Force User that is a lot like Rey, he goes from picking up a lightsaber to fighting Dark Jedi within the space of a few hours, and somehow he masters various Force techniques and becomes a full on Jedi Master that kills a half dozen Dark Jedi that have trained for years within what, a few days? Then Kyle's own apprentice does the exact same thing plus more. Rey is definitely not the first Force User in the franchise nor I suspect will be the last to go from complete novice to capable from the word go. The Force has always been anything but consistent in Star Wars and the people who use it are no better that's for sure, the Force can do whatever the writers want it to.

Happyninja42 said:
AccursedTheory said:
While I thought Finn was a force user prior to the movie, I like that he isn't. I feel like being a minor force user would make Finn smaller - He's better off being a Han Solo like character, getting things done through a combination of skill, pragmatism, and fumbling, bumbling luck. And the sheer power of broism.
I think he will be a force user, just not of the Skywalker line. If we are trying to establish a larger body of force users, aside from just the Skywalkers, it would make sense to establish some other force users in the new trilogy. I just think he's going to be a bit slower build to his connection. I get what you mean about being a "minor" force user, but I don't see it as that. I just see it as the Skywalker's have a more natural affinity for the force, that it comes easily to them, but that other people can be just as powerful with training and dedication. Personally, I think the red herring of Fin not actually being a force user would be a detriment to the story overall, but I do appreciate the "new Han Solo" vibe of him as well. Though personally I think that is being filled by Poe. He's the cocky, charismatic pilot, who can charm his way into, and out of anything. The likeable scoundrel. Which is bascially Han's entire schtick.

I would enjoy Fin's rise to being among the ranks of the Jedi as well, after his beginnings as a member of the First Order more than him simply being a support hero for Rey. Let him have his own heroic arc, culminating with his own blade and badassery moments, to redeem himself in his own eyes with his bad beginnings.

It could go either way of course, it's certainly left very open, and I can see them taking it either route without any issues, I just would prefer to see Fin as a Jedi too. xD
I've looked around for everything I could about Finn to see if there was anything definitively stating or showing one way or another whether Finn is Force Sensitive or not, but no dice. Aside from wielding a lightsaber in an obviously amateur fashion twice there is no indication that he even could be Force Sensitive, but there's nothing that goes against it either. I get the distinct feeling that the writers haven't really decided whether Finn is going to be a Jedi like Luke and the rest or just an ordinary but skilled and lucky Han Solo type yet, so they're intentionally keeping things vague so they can go either way they want to.