He's neither writing nor directing any further films in the series, so I doubt Disney would have allowed him to set up a domino string of red herrings because he gets a giggle out of it.Silentpony said:
Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)
- Thread starter Zontar
- Start date
Recommended Videos
You know, a thought occurred to me. All the mainstream reviews I've seen, regardless of their take on the new film, have the same common refrain; "Star Wars is back." I keep running across sentences like "it's a love letter to the fans," and "it HAD to play it safe to placate the fans after the prequels." George Lucas himself said (perhaps bitterly) that "the fans will love it." Yet in spite of all this there's a sizeable portion of fans (myself included) who don't see this as the second coming of Christ that one might expect from reading/watching said reviews.
Just to reiterate in case anyone gets the wrong idea; I like the movie, but I'm not all-
I think the media has missed the mark; this movie wasn't made for fans, it was made for general audiences.
You can't really claim "Star Wars is back" when, for many of us, Star Wars never left in the first place. The veritable avalanche of novels, comic books, video games, movie spinoffs and television shows saw to that. While admittedly a fair amount of it was trash, there were enough diamonds in the rough to keep us satiated over the decades (indeed, a <a href=http://www.techtimes.com/articles/116569/20151215/group-threatens-to-spoil-star-wars-the-force-awakens-unless-their-demands-are-met.htm>small but vocal minority ofassholes fans will swear up and down that the old Expanded Universe is "true" Star Wars, and shout down anyone who says otherwise with claims of "you're not a REAL fan!"). We didn't need to be reminded about the franchise and its legacy when we were steadily consuming it over the years in a never-ending smorgasbord. Indeed, one of the common criticisms levied against Episode VII by fans is that it's an amalgamation of themes we've seen before numerous times by various authors, artists, directors and programmers. Given the sheer volume of content out there, it's not at all surprising (monkeys at typewriters and all that).
The general public, though? THEY'RE the ones that have been jonesing for a quality Star Wars experience again this whole time. That's probably why Abrams and co. went with what's familiar and safe in the first place. They knew the fans were going to see it anyway out of brand loyalty, so they might as well cast as wide of a net as possible with gratuitous callbacks and reused plot points. They wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page, from the obsessed author of a 15,000-word Thrawn/Jar Jar slashfic to the casual moviegoer who last saw Luke, Han, Leia and Chewie in 1983.
Just to reiterate in case anyone gets the wrong idea; I like the movie, but I'm not all-
I think the media has missed the mark; this movie wasn't made for fans, it was made for general audiences.
You can't really claim "Star Wars is back" when, for many of us, Star Wars never left in the first place. The veritable avalanche of novels, comic books, video games, movie spinoffs and television shows saw to that. While admittedly a fair amount of it was trash, there were enough diamonds in the rough to keep us satiated over the decades (indeed, a <a href=http://www.techtimes.com/articles/116569/20151215/group-threatens-to-spoil-star-wars-the-force-awakens-unless-their-demands-are-met.htm>small but vocal minority of
The general public, though? THEY'RE the ones that have been jonesing for a quality Star Wars experience again this whole time. That's probably why Abrams and co. went with what's familiar and safe in the first place. They knew the fans were going to see it anyway out of brand loyalty, so they might as well cast as wide of a net as possible with gratuitous callbacks and reused plot points. They wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page, from the obsessed author of a 15,000-word Thrawn/Jar Jar slashfic to the casual moviegoer who last saw Luke, Han, Leia and Chewie in 1983.
You need to create a separation of fans, too.Neverhoodian said:
I grew up with Star Wars. I saw Empire Strikes Back in the drive thru when I was a little kid. I played "Revenge of the Jedi" in the woods behind my house with sticks before the movie was renamed. I had a Millenium Falcon, I had an AT-AT. My Dad was Darth Vader for Halloween.
I never touched nor got involved with the EU, but I'm still very much a fan of "Star Wars"...specifically the series of films that spawned the IP. And the fan servicing in Force Awakens was very much aimed at me.
I've indicated respect for EU fans, I'm sorry if they feel they've lost something, and if what they're getting with the new films is a dilution of something better they feel they already got. I have no common frame of reference with them, so I can't comment. But I'm not sure my experience with the films makes me "less of a fan" than some twenty year old who grew up reading Thrawn novels or whatever the heck is going on with that stuff.
My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply that only "real" Star Wars fans are into the EU. I've had that kind of "no true Scotsman" fallacy thrown at me with disturbing regularity the few times I've tried debating the merits of the new EU with extreme fans of the old.BloatedGuppy said:
I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about Kylo not beating Rey. Did everyone forget that he was SHOT by Chewie's giant gun? It's impressive that he even got up from it.
It's not just about his loosing as much as it is her wining. We see her using a staff as a weapon early in the movie and its shown that that's likely her fighting style for melee combat, then suddenly she can use saber like a pro despite the fact she'd literally never seen such a weapon before that day and the fact that the fighting style needed to use it (that she employed) is one which is completely different then the one she had been shown to know. Oh and 'the Force' is now magic that is whatever the hell the screen writer needs it to be now that needs zero training to master.RedDeadFred said:
I loved the mystery of Rey. Obviously she is super powerful. She gets clear I,ages about the past and future, which Luke could only get hints. She instantly picked up the mind trick, and you could see the powers flooding in when Ren and her had their light sabers locked. And there is a reason Finn is the first storm trooper we see that can shrug off all of the training and conditioning to have morals. It is also very possible that Luke's hiding was so she could find him. As you know, there really aren't coincidences in Star Wars. It is my belief that she is Yoda powerful and the key to the Jedi returning and overcoming this evil projection monster. Here's hoping Jar Jar is not the man behind the curtain.
You mean like using it to block incoming fire without being able to see?Zontar said:
Like that?
I have been resisting the urge to post a Star Wars rant the past few weeks. I haven't read the previous pages in this thread. I won't doubt I will end up repeating what has been said before. In case, anyone want to skip this. I'll post a TL;DR summation in the spoilers tag.
I had 15 minute commute from the theater to home when I watched Star Wars 7. I went from giving this movie a 4 out 5 to 2 out of 5 by the time I got home. The more I thought about it, more I realized that this movie doesn't hold up. This was essentially Star Wars: Into Darkness. They remade The New Hope and made it worse.
Oh God! Where to start? How about the references? Quoting the famous line from This Is Spinal Tap, there is such a fine line between stupid and clever. There were some clever references in this movie. Most of them were so on the nose that it was cringe-worthy. Combined these references with the point that it were rehashing the same plot points from The New Hope. It demonstrated that this movie lacked any originality. Say what you will about the prequels, it did manage to create something new in the established universe.
Star Wars 7 lacked the Lucas touch. Ever played the game where one person start a story than someone else picks it up where the previous person left off and so on. After a while, you notice that the story starts to get really wonky. The wonkiness started to show everytime a character tries to defend some story point in the original trilogy, or to dismiss something that was established in the prequels. "Stormtroopers are not clones." "Force is a spiritual thing not science." "This is not a Death Star. The new one is bigger and have a nipple."
This is not the Disney Princess you are looking for. I don't mind when the original writer/director trying to update his work. I may disagree with the updates.(Han Shot First!) It's still the vision of the original creator. When someone else, like a big corporation comes in and start dictating revisions like no more "Princess" Leia. Even though, the moment Disney bought Star Wars. Videos like this came out. That stuff gets old really fast and make you want to ignore anything else they would do to the property.
I'm still a Star Wars slut. I could go into minute details of what I liked and didn't like about Episode 7. At the end, it was a decently entertaining movie. I am curious where they are going to go with Luke and Rey. Ren is a weak villain. Hopefully, we will see more of Andy Serkis new character. I liked Oscar Issac ever since Inside Llewyn Davis. He was in the smallest scale sci-fi movie this year, Ex Machina and the largest one. He was good in this. Even though, they broke the rule of show, don't tell when it comes to proving his bona fides of being a great pilot. I don't know if John Boyega's performance was really good or silly and weak. On one hand, he was raised to be a stormtrooper and doesn't know how to act outside of that conditioning. Yet, the way he behaved was really annoying and cowardly. The verdict is still out on him. Another big complaint is that the movie was too earthy. I didn't get the feeling of visiting other planets. There were no space battles. Every battle with fighters happened on a planet. Having said all that, I will watch Episode 8. I am not a fan of Rian Johnson's original works. He seems to be more of a fan of concepts than storytelling. He was really good on Breaking Bad. So, maybe he just needs some established structure around him.
Who do I think "They" were? Star Wars fans who hated the Prequel Trilogy making a 200 million dollar fan-fiction for other Star Wars fans who hated the Prequel Trilogy.
I had 15 minute commute from the theater to home when I watched Star Wars 7. I went from giving this movie a 4 out 5 to 2 out of 5 by the time I got home. The more I thought about it, more I realized that this movie doesn't hold up. This was essentially Star Wars: Into Darkness. They remade The New Hope and made it worse.
Oh God! Where to start? How about the references? Quoting the famous line from This Is Spinal Tap, there is such a fine line between stupid and clever. There were some clever references in this movie. Most of them were so on the nose that it was cringe-worthy. Combined these references with the point that it were rehashing the same plot points from The New Hope. It demonstrated that this movie lacked any originality. Say what you will about the prequels, it did manage to create something new in the established universe.
Star Wars 7 lacked the Lucas touch. Ever played the game where one person start a story than someone else picks it up where the previous person left off and so on. After a while, you notice that the story starts to get really wonky. The wonkiness started to show everytime a character tries to defend some story point in the original trilogy, or to dismiss something that was established in the prequels. "Stormtroopers are not clones." "Force is a spiritual thing not science." "This is not a Death Star. The new one is bigger and have a nipple."
This is not the Disney Princess you are looking for. I don't mind when the original writer/director trying to update his work. I may disagree with the updates.(Han Shot First!) It's still the vision of the original creator. When someone else, like a big corporation comes in and start dictating revisions like no more "Princess" Leia. Even though, the moment Disney bought Star Wars. Videos like this came out. That stuff gets old really fast and make you want to ignore anything else they would do to the property.
I'm still a Star Wars slut. I could go into minute details of what I liked and didn't like about Episode 7. At the end, it was a decently entertaining movie. I am curious where they are going to go with Luke and Rey. Ren is a weak villain. Hopefully, we will see more of Andy Serkis new character. I liked Oscar Issac ever since Inside Llewyn Davis. He was in the smallest scale sci-fi movie this year, Ex Machina and the largest one. He was good in this. Even though, they broke the rule of show, don't tell when it comes to proving his bona fides of being a great pilot. I don't know if John Boyega's performance was really good or silly and weak. On one hand, he was raised to be a stormtrooper and doesn't know how to act outside of that conditioning. Yet, the way he behaved was really annoying and cowardly. The verdict is still out on him. Another big complaint is that the movie was too earthy. I didn't get the feeling of visiting other planets. There were no space battles. Every battle with fighters happened on a planet. Having said all that, I will watch Episode 8. I am not a fan of Rian Johnson's original works. He seems to be more of a fan of concepts than storytelling. He was really good on Breaking Bad. So, maybe he just needs some established structure around him.
Technically Luke does say "you have that power too", to Leia in Return of the Jedi. But I think the specific phrasing was different. He follows it up with "In time, you will learn to use it as I have."BloatedGuppy said:
Personally I think Rey is a Skywalker, partly because of simple narrative structure, but also because of some of the subtle hints they've laid out in the movie. I think the red herring is that Fin is also a Jedi. They kind of trick us with that, but then snatch it away, as he displayed no actual force abilities. I think he's just a "regular" force user, compared to those of the Skywalker bloodline. And that he's going to take more time and effort to gain his powers. That's what I hope happens anyway, I'd like to see both of them become new members of the Jedi order, instead of it always being this 1:1 ration thing. I mean, if the force is "awakening", it would imply a wide-spread resurgence of force users, gaining power.
While I thought Finn was a force user prior to the movie, I like that he isn't. I feel like being a minor force user would make Finn smaller - He's better off being a Han Solo like character, getting things done through a combination of skill, pragmatism, and fumbling, bumbling luck. And the sheer power of broism.Happyninja42 said:
The whole sequence of these quotes starts with Leia saying to Luke, "You have a power I don't understand, and could NEVER have." Luke replies, "You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it, as I have." Then all the bits about the Force being strong in his family. So yes, all the lines are ripped right out of ROTJ.Happyninja42 said:
Luke deflects 3 training blaster shots on the way to Alderaan. That's it. He definitely doesn't do so in actual combat scenarios. He never deflects blaster fire again in either ANH or ESB. Before RotJ, Luke doesn't use his powers much at all outside of training (ignoring whatever critical +5 boost his innate Force sensitivity grants him toward piloting) and his lightsaber gets more use as a blowtorch than as a jedi weapon up until his battle with Darth Vader at the end of ESB.BloatedGuppy said:
Sorry, it's not all that comparable.
He never has to. He does, however, use the Force to blind-block projectiles. That is a thing he does. How many projectiles does someone have to block with a melee weapon while blind to earn an "impressive" badge? I would argue that number is "1 or greater".Dazzle Novak said:
It's entirely comparable. It's not blow for blow identical, despite complaints that the film has "no original plot points", and I suspect if it had been that would just be a new source of complaint. Do something old and reliable with the Force, and you're playing it safe, do something new and slightly different, and you've created a canon-smashing Mary Sue.Dazzle Novak said:
I think he will be a force user, just not of the Skywalker line. If we are trying to establish a larger body of force users, aside from just the Skywalkers, it would make sense to establish some other force users in the new trilogy. I just think he's going to be a bit slower build to his connection. I get what you mean about being a "minor" force user, but I don't see it as that. I just see it as the Skywalker's have a more natural affinity for the force, that it comes easily to them, but that other people can be just as powerful with training and dedication. Personally, I think the red herring of Fin not actually being a force user would be a detriment to the story overall, but I do appreciate the "new Han Solo" vibe of him as well. Though personally I think that is being filled by Poe. He's the cocky, charismatic pilot, who can charm his way into, and out of anything. The likeable scoundrel. Which is bascially Han's entire schtick.AccursedTheory said:
I would enjoy Fin's rise to being among the ranks of the Jedi as well, after his beginnings as a member of the First Order more than him simply being a support hero for Rey. Let him have his own heroic arc, culminating with his own blade and badassery moments, to redeem himself in his own eyes with his bad beginnings.
It could go either way of course, it's certainly left very open, and I can see them taking it either route without any issues, I just would prefer to see Fin as a Jedi too. xD
It's like arguing that dominating lay-up drills and shooting back-to-back 3-pointers during practice means you could totally do the same during an actual basketball game against other people.BloatedGuppy said:
Luke could, in theory, blind-block blaster fire with his saber. In practice, Luke was ducking blaster fire and crouching behind walls just like Han and Leia. Which is more telling regarding what the movie and characters think of Luke's ability? He came under a lot of fire in both ANH and ERB; he apparently decided he wasn't well-trained enough to do it.
Luke, despite being "the chosen one", doesn't get to do much Jedi-specific badass stuff. That's what it boils down to. Yes, he blows up the Death Star, but considering the Rebel plan hinged on that shot even before Luke got involved, it was already theoretically possible for a skilled pilot; the Force just clinched it.
And considering I have no doubt Rey (based on what she pulls with the Falcon) and Poe Damaran (sp?) could pull off the shot that destroyed the Death Star, it's sort of a moot point. Rey in TFA is better than Luke was in ANH. Honestly, she's better than Luke was at the end of ERB. Luke couldn't Mind Trick until RotJ.
You mean he came under fire when he successfully rescued Leia from inside the Death Star, which he later returned to blow up, something no other pilot in the fleet was able to accomplish?Dazzle Novak said:
I'm sorry, Dazzle. I know you hated the film, or disliked it and have chosen to take up the mantle of "hated it" to battle against what you feel is unwarranted praise, but there's some RIDICULOUS reaching going on to slam Rey's characterization. A character with a mysterious background and unknown parentage emerges as a force sensitivity prodigy in fucking STAR WARS of all things, and a tiny portion of the audience is crying foul about it. It's very difficult to express in words how ridiculous this particular complaint is, issued one film into a three film trilogy. Eyes aren't meant to roll this much.
The film was pretty tit for tat in the first half, everything I disliked was balanced out with things I liked, and then "Kylo Ren" took his helmet off and I wanted to leave the theater every five minutes for the rest of the film.
Rey is the focal point of all the worst parts of that movie for me. No character, No Flaws, Awkward scenes. So Frustrating
Rey is the focal point of all the worst parts of that movie for me. No character, No Flaws, Awkward scenes. So Frustrating