Student commits suicide after school refuses to do anything about bullying

[chadachada123]

I really have to ask, of those that insist that bullying is something school officials should deal with more often, how do you propose they go about it this time around where the kid doesn't get more shit? And let's be honest, he seemed to be a bit of a loner to begin with, nothing wrong with it, but if it's considered a negative, if the person doesn't want to at least attempt a change, then it's not the fault or responsibility of anyone else to make them change.

But this largely stems from me not really considering suicide such an awful option. Choice like any other and I personally choose to think that if it was a choice that was made or the situation bleak enough to do it, then there's probably another choice they can make later on down the line after making it. Or I may just be a heartless bastard.

It would take a school willing to stand up to the parents of awful children.

I don't see how punishing students for bullying won't work, so long as you make it damn clear that if the bullying continues, the punishment will scale exponentially. If that means expulsion by the third incident, then so be it. Maybe the parents shouldn't have raised a shithead.

Alternately, at least allowing the bullied to fight back without punishment would be better than our current system. At least anarchy would give SOME kids a chance.

 

[Torgo Nudho]

We get it, humanity sucks. The thing is, governments, schools, and all of the rest of the fabric of civilization is designed to handle sucky humanity.

I'm not saying humanity sucks, just broken. Meaning it's not really possible to regulate human behavior as such that everyone is content with everyone.

Bullying itself is something that can be vague. I mean, is ignoring someone bullying? Or name calling? Both of these are things we don't like and that hurt us if they happen to us, but it's things we all do. Because we all have our likes and dislikes, and that includes other people.

Call me weird, but I think that "Sucks" and "Broken" are basically synonymous, unless we're talking Hoovers.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

In my experience theres very little a school can actually do to solve any bullying problem. It's just like real life, you can't really rely on the system to protect you. Even if they manage to save you today the asshole is just gonna get you where they can't protect you.

What my father always taught me was this, and I actually wish I had followed this more in high school. But this was more life advice. If you feel your in danger you go to the authorities. You get it down on paper that you want something done about it.

Now most likely they won't or can't do much, but now you're armed with at least the defense of "I tried to do things the right way".

Now this being school, you're always going to be in the wrong no matter what. I learned that pretty quickly in school, the machine doesn't give a shit about the truth. But getting it on paper isn't about that, it's about if you get into a fight and you kill the son of a ***** (which is so easy to do, you hit the guy the wrong way, he bangs his head on the ground, whatever.) you got a record that this guy was the aggressor.

Mind you I'm also of the philosophy you want to avoid fighting as much as you can, you shut down your bully today next day that son of ***** comes in with a hand gun. Shit can escalate.

All that said, my high school experience left largely a bitter taste in my mouth for the whole institution and everyone that works in it. God help if I ever have kids, I'm gonna relish in fucking with the teachers as much as possible out of spite.

No one would believe me. "Why would that kid start with you? He's half your size!"

If I had a nickel for every time I had that said to me.

Every fucking fight I ever had to have the fucking prick bothering me was always half my size.

Also as if my size means anything. Even back then when I was in relatively average shape anyone who knew how to fight could of kicked my ass. The only thing I had going for me was that i could take abuse.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I really have to ask, of those that insist that bullying is something school officials should deal with more often, how do you propose they go about it this time around where the kid doesn't get more shit? And let's be honest, he seemed to be a bit of a loner to begin with, nothing wrong with it, but if it's considered a negative, if the person doesn't want to at least attempt a change, then it's not the fault or responsibility of anyone else to make them change.

But this largely stems from me not really considering suicide such an awful option. Choice like any other and I personally choose to think that if it was a choice that was made or the situation bleak enough to do it, then there's probably another choice they can make later on down the line after making it. Or I may just be a heartless bastard.

It would take a school willing to stand up to the parents of awful children.

I don't see how punishing students for bullying won't work, so long as you make it damn clear that if the bullying continues, the punishment will scale exponentially. If that means expulsion by the third incident, then so be it. Maybe the parents shouldn't have raised a shithead.

Alternately, at least allowing the bullied to fight back without punishment would be better than our current system. At least anarchy would give SOME kids a chance.

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Do you not see how just letting someone fight back and get off the hook could be a problem?

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

 

[chadachada123]

It would take a school willing to stand up to the parents of awful children.

I don't see how punishing students for bullying won't work, so long as you make it damn clear that if the bullying continues, the punishment will scale exponentially. If that means expulsion by the third incident, then so be it. Maybe the parents shouldn't have raised a shithead.

Alternately, at least allowing the bullied to fight back without punishment would be better than our current system. At least anarchy would give SOME kids a chance.

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Do you not see how just letting someone fight back and get off the hook could be a problem?

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

Except that self defense is a basic human right. Maybe the bully shouldn't have attacked an innocent person?

I don't find punishing victims for fighting back to be anything short of outright evil.

 

[Zontar]

I don't find punishing victims for fighting back to be anything short of outright evil.

And that's why Zero Tolerance policies are universally despised, especially by the people enforcing them (I know that back in my days in school the principle and VPs of my high school hated Zero Tolerance).

 

[Saelune]

This is pretty typical. People are always saying "oh my god! If only I had known how hard things were for him!" and "people are so cruel!" after people commit suicide, but they don't give a damn beforehand. It's just such a taboo subject that nobody wants to address until they end up with no other option.

^^^

It's like that quote from the Dark Knight Rises movie ... the "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask" ... basically, you only matter now once it already happened or people noticed you until action was taken. That's why a lot of of people end up doing horrible things or doing something horrific during a riot / protest because their cries for help were ignored or people didn't care about their problems.

I've taken psychology and sociology and I notice a trend where people only start caring or being sympathetic after the tragedy struck. It's a way for them to cope with the fact they did nothing beforehand for said people / individual, and move on with their lives. Sure if I knew the child was suffering and I knew em in person, I would of done something to help em out. But if I was busy with my life and I didn't know what the kid was going through ... I wouldn't say or interact with the kid because I don't usually walk up to strangers in general. A lot of victims tend to keep it to themselves, but if the kid did try to get help and everyone shunned the poor guy then yeah shame on the school / people for driving him to suicide.

It seems like the system is broken and people haven't figured out how to stop bullying without getting hit with consequences. As others mentioned, if the teachers did try ... the bullie's parents would sue them or make claims that their child is being targeted by a bad teacher. No one wants to take responsibility and yet no one does anything to ensure these incidents don't occur. Once they do happen, people act all "sad" and "hurt" but they'll move on because if it's not someone in their line of friends / family, why should they dwell on it? A really sad case all around, but this is why you should be nice to everyone you meet ... because you'll never know if that person is hurting or close to doing something bad / suicidal.

Everyone who kills themselves becomes the most popular kid. All of a sudden, these kids who likely had few if any friends, apparently was so well liked by everyone who say all this moving bullshit. Every time I see it, all these people saying how the person was so nice and kind and shit, where the hell were you before they killed themselves!?

You don't think the massively high rates of bullying and suicide the LGBT community faces might possibly have something to do with it?

But it's not a problem that's unique to that commaunity.

Bullying as an overarching thing is not unique, but the quantity, consistency, and how the community treats it is.

After all, a large swath of conservative voters still thing it's okay to send gay kids to re-education camps to forcibly brainwash them into being straight because a book told them too.

And an increasingly large swath of "progressive" voters think it's a bad thing that their kid isn't on the spectrum of gender/sexuality abnormality(I don't mean this as a negative, just that average is normal, and the average in this case is overwhelmingly not confused with their gender or genital liking as they're brought up, people always talk about being normal is boring anyways). There's shit on both sides of the political divide, and we can both bring up assholes to make one side or the other look bad as many times as we want to.

OT:

I really have to ask, of those that insist that bullying is something school officials should deal with more often, how do you propose they go about it this time around where the kid doesn't get more shit? And let's be honest, he seemed to be a bit of a loner to begin with, nothing wrong with it, but if it's considered a negative, if the person doesn't want to at least attempt a change, then it's not the fault or responsibility of anyone else to make them change.

But this largely stems from me not really considering suicide such an awful option. Choice like any other and I personally choose to think that if it was a choice that was made or the situation bleak enough to do it, then there's probably another choice they can make later on down the line after making it. Or I may just be a heartless bastard.

I try not to fault people for killing themselves. I also don't agree that suicide is never the answer, but suicide should never have to be the answer.

That said, just because someone doesn't seek help, doesn't mean they don't need, want, or deserve it. And this "They will get it worse for it" is short sighted and dumb. If they keep doing it, keep stopping it. As I said before, if they step up the harassment, then the punishment may have to be stepped up to. I prefer to think bullies are kids who need help too, and I don't want to condemn anyone, and ideally the bully would come to realize they are being terrible and stop and maybe get help if they need it...but Id rather bullies screw their own lives over rather than their victim's if it has to be one or the other.

Asking for help is hard. You don't know who you can trust, perhaps you feel its your fault, or you don't deserve better. It is a really shitty position to be in.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It would take a school willing to stand up to the parents of awful children.

I don't see how punishing students for bullying won't work, so long as you make it damn clear that if the bullying continues, the punishment will scale exponentially. If that means expulsion by the third incident, then so be it. Maybe the parents shouldn't have raised a shithead.

Alternately, at least allowing the bullied to fight back without punishment would be better than our current system. At least anarchy would give SOME kids a chance.

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Do you not see how just letting someone fight back and get off the hook could be a problem?

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

Except that self defense is a basic human right. Maybe the bully shouldn't have attacked an innocent person?

I don't find punishing victims for fighting back to be anything short of outright evil.

For self defense to be legally and ethical viable one has to make the effort to avoid the conflict, not counting states with Stand Your Ground Laws.

Theres a very clear line to me, a difference between defending one's physical well being and defending one's pride.

 

[fenrizz]

Did they refuse, or were they just pretty much powerless, like every other school? I know the first response after a tragedy like this is to blame the school for not having stopped it, but what can a school actually do against it that won't just paint an even bigger target on the victim?

Bullying is one of those issues for which there is no real solution, other than straight-up skipping or transfering schools (if we're talking bullying at school).

I call bullhit.

But bullying needs to be dealt with from day one, i.e. from the first grade and throughout the whole.
It can be done, but I've never had the impression that US schools made much more than a token effort.
"It takes two to tango", "stick and stones..." and all that bullshit.

Both my kids were bullied in school, but things worked out due to teachers interweening at an early age.
By the time the kids hit middle school it's too late.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

I'm not entirely sure on this, but isn't saying that there's nothing we can do stop kids bullying, an example of a nirvana fallacy? Where there's no point in aiming for a perfect solution so we shouldn't try? We must always strive to refine ourselves and our systems, just because we may not be able to stop every bad action, it is no reason to not try. What about the police force? They cannot stop every crime before it happens, so should we just not bother policing humanity? Not bother trying to improve their methods? They're going to find a way to commit crime anyway.

 

[RaikuFA]

So I was watching the news last night and this was brought up again. The parents are taking the school to court over a wrongful death and for leaking private info to ACS to try and discredit the family.

 

[Caedite Eos]

We get it, humanity sucks. The thing is, governments, schools, and all of the rest of the fabric of civilization is designed to handle sucky humanity.

I'm not saying humanity sucks, just broken. Meaning it's not really possible to regulate human behavior as such that everyone is content with everyone.

Bullying itself is something that can be vague. I mean, is ignoring someone bullying? Or name calling? Both of these are things we don't like and that hurt us if they happen to us, but it's things we all do. Because we all have our likes and dislikes, and that includes other people.

Humanity can't be broken, with no intended function. Humanity just is, like everything else, largely random.

 

[Gengisgame]

what? Are you really comparing imaginary 'progressive' strawmen merely disliking their kid isn't gay, to actual real camps that actual real parents send their actual real kids to, that forcibly convert them into what they consider 'right' causing a life time of psychological issues commonly ending in suicide because their parents couldn't accept them?

uh no, real life progressives that try to ensure there children are gender neutral, convinced they are transgender or gay before the average child is even interested in the opposite sex, or teach there sons feminism

This kid committed suicide, no one really cares why, if it had been a progressive issue we would most certainly have heard about it by now, boys kill themselves more than ever, no groups for them unless they fall under the progressive umbrella.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

But what about the abuser?
In your hypothetical scenario

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Is not the new situation our bully now finds himself in the consequences of his actions?
Or is our Victim supposed to just endure the abuse, all the while the Abuser gets a free pass on it?
And then, after prolonged abuse, our Victim commits suicide because they can't stand up for themselves, if they fought back, they'd be in trouble, they tried to get faculty involved, to no avail.

And your statement on self-defense

For self defense to be legally and ethical viable one has to make the effort to avoid the conflict, not counting states with Stand Your Ground Laws.

Do you not realize that when fights break out at a school, all the kids flock to the site like flies on a rotting corpse?
At all of my middle and high schools I attended, every time there was a fight (and there were many), you couldn't even see the two people fighting through the crowd of students trying to watch the fight. It would be impossible for someone to escape in this scenario, or in a situation where they've been cornered. Fight or flight, and if flight isn't an option, all you have left is fight. This isn't about pride, this is about your own physical well being.

Zero tolerance policies are bullshit.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

But what about the abuser?
In your hypothetical scenario

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Is not the new situation our bully now finds himself in the consequences of his actions?
Or is our Victim supposed to just endure the abuse, all the while the Abuser gets a free pass on it?
And then, after prolonged abuse, our Victim commits suicide because they can't stand up for themselves, if they fought back, they'd be in trouble, they tried to get faculty involved, to no avail.

And your statement on self-defense

For self defense to be legally and ethical viable one has to make the effort to avoid the conflict, not counting states with Stand Your Ground Laws.

Do you not realize that when fights break out at a school, all the kids flock to the site like flies on a rotting corpse?
At all of my middle and high schools I attended, every time there was a fight (and there were many), you couldn't even see the two people fighting through the crowd of students trying to watch the fight. It would be impossible for someone to escape in this scenario, or in a situation where they've been cornered. Fight or flight, and if flight isn't an option, all you have left is fight. This isn't about pride, this is about your own physical well being.

Zero tolerance policies are bullshit.

In my high school experince, fights like you describe with the big circle? Didn't happen unless it was a planned thing and both parties mutually wanted to fight, and those fights were rare.

I don't know what you want me to say brah, even if it is on some level justified in fighting back, it's still vigilante justice and that shit can't be condoned. It sucks but thems the brakes.

 

[Saelune]

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

But what about the abuser?
In your hypothetical scenario

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Is not the new situation our bully now finds himself in the consequences of his actions?
Or is our Victim supposed to just endure the abuse, all the while the Abuser gets a free pass on it?
And then, after prolonged abuse, our Victim commits suicide because they can't stand up for themselves, if they fought back, they'd be in trouble, they tried to get faculty involved, to no avail.

And your statement on self-defense

For self defense to be legally and ethical viable one has to make the effort to avoid the conflict, not counting states with Stand Your Ground Laws.

Do you not realize that when fights break out at a school, all the kids flock to the site like flies on a rotting corpse?
At all of my middle and high schools I attended, every time there was a fight (and there were many), you couldn't even see the two people fighting through the crowd of students trying to watch the fight. It would be impossible for someone to escape in this scenario, or in a situation where they've been cornered. Fight or flight, and if flight isn't an option, all you have left is fight. This isn't about pride, this is about your own physical well being.

Zero tolerance policies are bullshit.

In my high school experince, fights like you describe with the big circle? Didn't happen unless it was a planned thing and both parties mutually wanted to fight, and those fights were rare.

I don't know what you want me to say brah, even if it is on some level justified in fighting back, it's still vigilante justice and that shit can't be condoned. It sucks but thems the brakes.

Vigilante justice is a result of poor legal justice. If the bad people are stopped by the law, then people wont need to take things into their own hands. If people in charge at school did their job, if police did their job, if lawyers and judges did their job, if politicians did their job, for the good of us, then we wouldn't have these issues. But people, all people, are flawed. Biased, hateful, stupid, na?ve, bigoted, etc.

I want to have faith in the law, but I don't.

If you think vigilante justice cant be condoned, neither can negligence by those in position to deal with this stuff.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

But what about the abuser?
In your hypothetical scenario

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Is not the new situation our bully now finds himself in the consequences of his actions?
Or is our Victim supposed to just endure the abuse, all the while the Abuser gets a free pass on it?
And then, after prolonged abuse, our Victim commits suicide because they can't stand up for themselves, if they fought back, they'd be in trouble, they tried to get faculty involved, to no avail.

And your statement on self-defense

For self defense to be legally and ethical viable one has to make the effort to avoid the conflict, not counting states with Stand Your Ground Laws.

Do you not realize that when fights break out at a school, all the kids flock to the site like flies on a rotting corpse?
At all of my middle and high schools I attended, every time there was a fight (and there were many), you couldn't even see the two people fighting through the crowd of students trying to watch the fight. It would be impossible for someone to escape in this scenario, or in a situation where they've been cornered. Fight or flight, and if flight isn't an option, all you have left is fight. This isn't about pride, this is about your own physical well being.

Zero tolerance policies are bullshit.

In my high school experince, fights like you describe with the big circle? Didn't happen unless it was a planned thing and both parties mutually wanted to fight, and those fights were rare.

I don't know what you want me to say brah, even if it is on some level justified in fighting back, it's still vigilante justice and that shit can't be condoned. It sucks but thems the brakes.

Vigilante justice is a result of poor legal justice. If the bad people are stopped by the law, then people wont need to take things into their own hands. If people in charge at school did their job, if police did their job, if lawyers and judges did their job, if politicians did their job, for the good of us, then we wouldn't have these issues. But people, all people, are flawed. Biased, hateful, stupid, na?ve, bigoted, etc.

I want to have faith in the law, but I don't.

If you think vigilante justice cant be condoned, neither can negligence by those in position to deal with this stuff.

well obviously, but in the real world that clearly doesn't happen.

Reminds me of that picture, Falling Down, after the cop catches up with the guys whos been rampaging all over LA and he's like "You know, I saved America. I built missles that beat the russians. Then the walls comes down and they fired me. They lied to me [about the american dream]."

and the cop goes "Oh is that what this is all about? Cause they lied to you? Listen buddy they lie to everybody. They lie to the fish. That still doesn't give you the right to do what you did today."

ah whatever. Theres clearly not just answer to this. I think sometimes you do gotta be a vigilante, but you don't get to do those kinds of things and walk away scott free. It has consequences like everything else.

 

[C5H5-NiNO]

Instead we should be teaching kids like, good for you for standing up to your abuser, but life isn't fair and there are still consequences for actions.

But what about the abuser?
In your hypothetical scenario

Bullied kid fights back, knocks out the bully with one punch, and as the kid is collapsing to the floor he smacks his head on the ground and is now neurologically brain damaged for the rest of his life.

Is not the new situation our bully now finds himself in the consequences of his actions?
Or is our Victim supposed to just endure the abuse, all the while the Abuser gets a free pass on it?
And then, after prolonged abuse, our Victim commits suicide because they can't stand up for themselves, if they fought back, they'd be in trouble, they tried to get faculty involved, to no avail.

And your statement on self-defense

For self defense to be legally and ethical viable one has to make the effort to avoid the conflict, not counting states with Stand Your Ground Laws.

Do you not realize that when fights break out at a school, all the kids flock to the site like flies on a rotting corpse?
At all of my middle and high schools I attended, every time there was a fight (and there were many), you couldn't even see the two people fighting through the crowd of students trying to watch the fight. It would be impossible for someone to escape in this scenario, or in a situation where they've been cornered. Fight or flight, and if flight isn't an option, all you have left is fight. This isn't about pride, this is about your own physical well being.

Zero tolerance policies are bullshit.

In my high school experince, fights like you describe with the big circle? Didn't happen unless it was a planned thing and both parties mutually wanted to fight, and those fights were rare.

I don't know what you want me to say brah, even if it is on some level justified in fighting back, it's still vigilante justice and that shit can't be condoned. It sucks but thems the brakes.

Vigilante justice is a result of poor legal justice. If the bad people are stopped by the law, then people wont need to take things into their own hands. If people in charge at school did their job, if police did their job, if lawyers and judges did their job, if politicians did their job, for the good of us, then we wouldn't have these issues. But people, all people, are flawed. Biased, hateful, stupid, na?ve, bigoted, etc.

I want to have faith in the law, but I don't.

If you think vigilante justice cant be condoned, neither can negligence by those in position to deal with this stuff.

well obviously, but in the real world that clearly doesn't happen.

Reminds me of that picture, Falling Down, after the cop catches up with the guys whos been rampaging all over LA and he's like "You know, I saved America. I built missles that beat the russians. Then the walls comes down and they fired me. They lied to me [about the american dream]."

and the cop goes "Oh is that what this is all about? Cause they lied to you? Listen buddy they lie to everybody. They lie to the fish. That still doesn't give you the right to do what you did today."

ah whatever. Theres clearly not just answer to this. I think sometimes you do gotta be a vigilante, but you don't get to do those kinds of things and walk away scott free. It has consequences like everything else.

Broadly speaking there are two kinds of people:

People who grow to feel that something is terribly wrong with the world, and they're going to be the one to fix it.
People who grow to feel that something is terribly wrong with the world, and that puts history, and the future in perspective for them.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

No, there are ways to deal with it. Its called punishing the bullies, and just the bullies. Its having the parents take responsibility for their kids. Its teaching kids to respect each other with basic dignity.

My US History teacher didn't just let kids be bullies, nor was he coy about it. But he was the teacher in charge of the Gay-Straight Alliance and the Football coach, and a great teacher and person, so ya know, a rarity.

Eventually my principal dealt with another atleast somewhat. Took me throwing a textbook at my bully and getting into a fight, but even just them being like "Hey, you were clearly being a bully, stop it" managed to get him off my back, even if I also had detention for a week.

I mean, there were still plenty of others, but the ones actually dealt with actually stopped, go figure.

I don't know ... see, I was a teacher for awhile ... and frankly parents often side with their kids. I flat out told parents their child was loud, disruptive, and abusive to their classmates and they straight up said to me; "Maybe you're just not connecting with them." There is literally no depths to which parents won't sink to put all responsibility on the teacher despite only having 45 minutes (at best) with their kid. They spend hours with them and apparently do nothing ... I spend 45 minutes with them and 24+ other similar aged kids.