Switch Online Service.

[Yoshi178]

in principle Amiibo's are microtransactions for cosmetic items that make little to no difference to a games experience.

in fact Amiibo's are even better than microtransactions as the buyer gets a nice little figurine to go with your purchase and Amiibo's can be used for multiple games including games that have not been announced yet.

for example the Super Smash Bros Zelda figurines can be used in Zelda Breath of the Wild which is a game released 3 years after smash bros. people didn't buy the Zelda Smash amiibo's knowing that they could be used in future games like BOTW, people would have just bought them to use in Smash Bros when they came out obviously.

digital microtransactions are a single purchase for a single game that are tied to a single online account and has nothing tangible tied to it like the Amiibo's do.

Yes, I know what amiibos are, thank you. None of this addresses a principled objection to on-disc DLC, does it?

except i was addressing the "principled" objection to Amiibo's/on disc DLC

Again, this would be compelling if I wasn't appealing to principle rather than scale. It is the attitude that's the issue, not specific instances.

i just gave you reasons as to why Amiibo's are better than microtransactions and if it's just the "attitude" towards these type of microtransactions that's the issue then once again, Amiibo's are pretty insignificant thing for people like Phoenix to complain about.

Amiibo's don't provide significant content, can be used in multiple games both present and in the future and at the end of the day, Nintendo was going to charge the customer for the content whether they put that content on the disc at the beginning or not.


and if it's the microtransaction's themself that's the major issue, then boo hoo. Nintendo is a business and they have to make money somehow. at least the way they're doing is more ethical than all those third party devs have in game loot boxes a.k.a. gambling for gamers.



don't like the microtransaction's then don't buy them and just play the main content as the developers always intended. simple.

 

[Silvanus]

i just gave you reasons as to why Amiibo's are better than microtransactions and if it's just the "attitude" towards these type of microtransactions that's the issue then once again, Amiibo's are pretty insignificant thing for people like Phoenix to complain about.

...which is an appeal to scale, which is irrelevant.

Amiibo's don't provide significant content, can be used in multiple games both present and in the future and at the end of the day, Nintendo was going to charge the customer for the content whether they put that content on the disc at the beginning or not.

...which is an appeal to scale, which is irrelevant.

No, you're not addressing a principled objection to the idea that part of a purchased physical object should be inaccessible to the purchaser. Whether it's not much content simply doesn't address that.

 

[Yoshi178]

i just gave you reasons as to why Amiibo's are better than microtransactions and if it's just the "attitude" towards these type of microtransactions that's the issue then once again, Amiibo's are pretty insignificant thing for people like Phoenix to complain about.

...which is an appeal to scale, which is irrelevant.

Amiibo's don't provide significant content, can be used in multiple games both present and in the future and at the end of the day, Nintendo was going to charge the customer for the content whether they put that content on the disc at the beginning or not.

...which is an appeal to scale, which is irrelevant.

Why are they irrelevant? how about you answer me a question and explain to me why Nintendo charging money for toy's that provide a small in-game unlockable is such a problem in the first place?
why do customers have the right to throw tantrums about this pretty much meaningless content being locked behind a small pay wall? (although if they're gonna throw tantrums about something as small as this it's highly unlikely they were ever going to be actual customers in the first place)

 

[Silvanus]

Why are they irrelevant? how about you answer me a question and explain to me why Nintendo charging money for toy's that provide a small in-game unlockable is such a problem in the first place?
why do customers have the right to throw tantrums about this pretty much meaningless content being locked behind a small pay wall?

Customers have the right to throw a tantrum about whatever they want. Specifically, as I've already said, my objection is that if somebody purchases a physical item, they own that item, and in principle somebody should be able to use something they own to the fullest extent it can be used (well, barring harm to others, obviously). It is their property, after all.

And the scale argument does not address that issue, obviously. It makes the issue far less egregious (which is why I pointed out before that plenty of other companies have a far bigger problem here than Nintendo), but the issue remains, and it indicates to me something broken and unbalanced in the attitude towards the consumer.

(although if they're gonna throw tantrums about something as small as this it's highly unlikely they were ever going to be actual customers in the first place)

Nonsense. People just love to imagine that others, by offering criticisms, must not be true consumers. I remember a lot of nitwits arguing that people who criticise a lack of representation in gaming must not be true gamers, either, when Gamergate was big. It's a baseless, nonsensical notion.

I love Nintendo, and buy a lot of Nintendo stuff. I've owned every Nintendo platform since the SNES (though I was late getting both a Gamecube and a Wii, I got the Switch soon after release, and I love it). It's because I love the medium that I want it to be better. Although the PS4 is currently my primary platform, the latter half of 2018 looks very strong for the Switch, so it looks like that's about to change for the rest of the year.

 

[Yoshi178]

Customers have the right to throw a tantrum about whatever they want.

not really.

a customer cracked the shits at me once a couple of because he apparently drove 2 hours to get to my store where it was advertised we were selling some cheap tablet. when he got to the store i apologised and told him we were currently sold out and he started verbally abusing me saying stuff like "don't advertise it if you're sold out!" as if the cataloge advertisement of the fact that we had sold out was my fault or something.

it wasn't our problem that he drove 2 hours to come specifically to my store on boxing day of all days in the afternoon only to find out it was sold out. maybe that guy shouldve either come bought it early or called ahead to see if we still had any left and could hold one for him.


The customer is not always right. companies just like to let them think they are. we just laugh at you as soon as you leave the store and get out of earshot.

 

[Silvanus]

The customer is not always right. companies just like to let them think they are. we just laugh at you as soon as you leave the store and get out of earshot.

I didn't say the customer was always right; I said they had the right. Not to abuse anybody as in that instance, obviously, but to complain on a forum.

 

[Yoshi178]

The customer is not always right. companies just like to let them think they are. we just laugh at you as soon as you leave the store and get out of earshot.

I didn't say the customer was always right; I said they had the right. Not to abuse anybody as in that instance, obviously, but to complain on a forum.

fine they have the right to complain. doesn't mean they're justified in doing so though.

they have the right to complain. but i also have the right to tell them to shut up and stop complaining.

i shouldn't. but i shouldn't have to listen to their complaining about something so ridiculous either.

 

[Silvanus]

fine they have the right to complain. doesn't mean they're justified in doing so though.

they have the right to complain. but i also have the right to tell them to shut up and stop complaining.

i shouldn't. but i shouldn't have to listen to their complaining about something so ridiculous either.

Rather than responding to the objection by telling people to shut up, address the objection itself.

When you buy an item, the item is supposed to be your property. What does it say about a company's attitude towards the purchaser that they will prevent you using part of the item you've bought until you pay them again, however small that part is?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

how about you answer me a question and explain to me why Nintendo charging money for toy's that provide a small in-game unlockable is such a problem in the first place?
why do customers have the right to throw tantrums about this pretty much meaningless content being locked behind a small pay wall?

Nobody was throwing a tantrum over amiibos. I merely pointed how you were throwing rocks from your glass house. Notice how I didn't say anything about amiibos until you mentioned AAA microtransactions and loot boxes?

Nintendo has done a lot anti-consumer bullshit all while staying under-the-radar for the most part. Remember when on-disc DLC was the worst thing ever and now Nintendo does it for every game and rarely gets shit for it. The biggest problem with the Switch online service (the topic at hand remember) is pay-walling the backing up of game saves. Nintendo is apart to lots of these practices but just doesn't make the headlines like Battlefront 2. Are amiibos or say Nintendo delaying Twilight Princess on GC to launch on Wii instead the reason I don't buy Nintendo systems? Nope, I merely find their products inferior.

(although if they're gonna throw tantrums about something as small as this it's highly unlikely they were ever going to be actual customers in the first place)

Uhh... People will throw much bigger tantrums over more important stuff and still be actual customers.

 

[Yoshi178]

fine they have the right to complain. doesn't mean they're justified in doing so though.

they have the right to complain. but i also have the right to tell them to shut up and stop complaining.

i shouldn't. but i shouldn't have to listen to their complaining about something so ridiculous either.

Rather than responding to the objection by telling people to shut up, address the objection itself.

When you buy an item, the item is supposed to be your property. What does it say about a company's attitude towards the purchaser that they will prevent you using part of the item you've bought until you pay them again, however small that part is?

you own the Disc and you own the right to use certain content on that disc. there is always a grey area with Digital content because it's different to pretty much every other physical format. When you buy a disc with anti virus software on it. you're buying a disc with a license to that software for a certain amount of time, say 12 months. after that months you have to renew your subscription and pay to use the anti virus software licence for another 12 months. just because you own the disc with the initial anti virus software on it doesn't mean you get to use that software forever.

with videogames. they charge you for the disc and to use certain content on that disc. you want extra stuff like the little amiibo costume, well your videogame disc doesn't cover you being able to use that costume. you want it, you pay extra for it.

it's shady but that's the way videogame companies make their money whether that content is on the disc or not. in fact if it's already on the disc at least they're saving you the hassle of having to download it later.

 

[Yoshi178]

Nobody was throwing a tantrum over amiibos. I merely pointed how you were throwing rocks from your glass house. Notice how I didn't say anything about amiibos until you mentioned AAA microtransactions and loot boxes?

Not true. you and Johnny were the ones throwing rocks.

Silvanus was talking to Johnny about 3rd Party games on Switch and said that Dark Souls remastered is not a port of an old game. it's a new remaster that's been released on all systems this year.

you argued then argued with Silvanus saying

Is Dark Souls or the N. Sane trilogy remasters the next game in any given AAA series?

as if to tell Silvanus that Dark Souls Remasterered doesn't count just because it isn't an original new AAA game but a remaster of an old game.

i just laughed and replied to you

AAA games. lol feels like most AAA games these days are more like loot box filled crap like Star Wars Battlefront 2

because you're trying to argue that Nintendo doesn't get 3rd Party games on Switch and they will only count if they happened to be a completely brand new and original 3rd Party AAA game for Nintendo despite the fact that Sony and Microsoft are getting remasters of these exact same old games just like the Switch is.


i just laughed because you're trying to say the only games that count for Nintendo are AAA 3rd Party Games even though it feels like most 3rd Party AAA games these days are just half assed games filled with Loot boxes like Star Wars Battlefront 2. i didn't say anything about Microtransactions let alone anything about why they're bad but i don't actually have a problem with Microtransactions them self. i don't like them, but i just don't buy them.

just like you should do with Amiibo. you're the one that then tried to fight me and go "B-B-But Amiibo's" as soon as i even mentioned loot boxes

 

[Yoshi178]

The biggest problem with the Switch online service (the topic at hand remember) is pay-walling the backing up of game saves.

now that i do agree with you on. locking cloud saving behind a paywall is pretty dodgy imo. that kind of stuff shouldn't be locked behind a paywall.

but Nintendo Switch Online is a much cheaper service than Xbox live and PSN and Nintendo will also be providing subsribers to the service with *free* games starting with 20 NES games with more titles being added to the libary regularly Nintendo said.

so because of the price and because of that type of extra service, i can forgive the cloud saving thing. if you don't want to Play Nintendo games online or get any of those *free* retro Nintendo games, well then sure that's problem. but's really more of a personal problem.

i do want to do that stuff so the cloud saving thing isn't an issue for me when i was already going to be paying for the online gaming service anyway.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Nobody was throwing a tantrum over amiibos. I merely pointed how you were throwing rocks from your glass house. Notice how I didn't say anything about amiibos until you mentioned AAA microtransactions and loot boxes?

Not true. you and Johnny were the ones throwing rocks.

Silvanus was talking to Johnny about 3rd Party games on Switch and said that Dark Souls remastered is not a port of an old game. it's a new remaster that's been released on all systems this year.

you argued then argued with Silvanus saying

You didn't get the point of the proverb...

I didn't want to get into the semantics, but remasters are basically ports. Developers were like we have these new systems (PS4/Xbone) that are just like PCs in architecture and we already made PC versions of last-gen games, thus we can port the better looking PC version to PS4/Xbone and call them remasters, it's all just a marketing term mainly. It's why the PC crowd yawned at the remaster of Skyrim because they basically already had it. The Crash trilogy is much more than a port though. The question of whether something is port or not doesn't matter. Every game is made on a lead platform and ported to other platforms thus even a regular game coming out on PC/PS4/Xbone, 2 of those 3 releases are technically ports. Does it matter which one is the "real" one? Nope. The point is that they all got the game.

The main point Johnny and I are making is that the Switch (or any past 3 Nintendo systems) will get say 1 out of every 5 multiplatform releases while every other platform gets like 90% of them. It's not that those releases don't count, it's that the Switch isn't getting nearly all the games as everyone else that is the problem. Getting games is always a good thing (whether it's a port, a new game, or a 20+ year old game), it's the not getting of games that is the bad thing. Thus Johnny and I aren't like those games don't count but get back to us when a Nintendo system is getting every game like every other platform. Even Silvanus said the Switch is not their primary platform for very much that exact reason.

The biggest problem with the Switch online service (the topic at hand remember) is pay-walling the backing up of game saves.

now that i do agree with you on. locking cloud saving behind a paywall is pretty dodgy imo. that kind of stuff shouldn't be locked behind a paywall.

It's not the paywalling of cloud saves that is the problem, it's that you can't back up saves to say an SD card. Thus the only possible way to back up saves is paying Nintendo. It's like Microsoft purposefully not putting a web browser on their system and then paywalling shit like Facebook and Twitter behind Live.

 

[Yoshi178]

The main point Johnny and I are making is that the Switch (or any past 3 Nintendo systems) will get say 1 out of every 5 multiplatform releases while every other platform gets like 90% of them.

how exactly do you measure Nintendo getting EVERY multiplatform game? that shit doesn't happen overnight and the Nintendo Switch is already very quickly growing it's 3rd party library.

Xbox isn't getting EVERY 3rd Party game either like you like you claim. it didn't get Dragon Quest Builders nor is it getting Valkyria Chronicles 4. those games are only on PS4 & Switch but not Xbone

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The main point Johnny and I are making is that the Switch (or any past 3 Nintendo systems) will get say 1 out of every 5 multiplatform releases while every other platform gets like 90% of them.

how exactly do you measure Nintendo getting EVERY multiplatform game? that shit doesn't happen overnight and the Nintendo Switch is already very quickly growing it's 3rd party library.

Xbox isn't getting EVERY 3rd Party game either like you like you claim. it didn't get Dragon Quest Builders nor is it getting Valkyria Chronicles 4. those games are only on PS4 & Switch but not Xbone

PlayStation and Xbox getting 3rd-party support happened overnight. Literally the 1st PlayStation got more games than Nintendo and Sega systems when Sony was the new kid on the block. Xbox got a good about of 3rd-party support in its 1st console and more than Nintendo's Gamecube got. All Nintendo has to do is make a system with power close to the competition with the same architecture and the system will magically get 3rd-party support overnight.

Sure, not every system gets literally every game like PS4 not getting Cuphead or Xbone not getting DQ Builders. Though Xbone is getting Valkyria Chronicles 4, I don't know why you think it's not. The simple way of knowing when a system is getting "every" game is when I see Game XYZ is not releasing on PS4 and being surprised by that vs the Switch getting Wolfenstein 2 and being surprised it actually got the game. I don't have to look up game news to see if PS4 is getting a certain game, I just assume it will be because it's probably at least a 90% chance that it will. For example, that new Fallout 76 game just got a trailer, and I don't even have to lookup if it's coming to PS4 because why wouldn't it? Whereas the Switch merely has rumors that the most popular current game, Fortnite, is even coming to the system. Phones have Fortnite before the Switch (assuming it gets it).

 

[Silvanus]

you own the Disc and you own the right to use certain content on that disc.

I don't know about you, but buying something and then owning the right to use some of what I just paid for feels shite.

Just like games that place a storefront unavoidably within the main-game (see Dead Space 3, which was egregious), it acts as a constant reminder that I don't have the full experience. A reminder that pops up as I'm trying to play what I did buy.

it's shady but that's the way videogame companies make their money whether that content is on the disc or not. in fact if it's already on the disc at least they're saving you the hassle of having to download it later.

If it's already on the disc, that means it was already designed and they chose at the time of release that the amount I paid (?50, more often than not) wasn't worthy. If it isn't on the disc, and was designed later, then that means they at least allocated resources to it later, rather than creating different tiers of customer before the game was even released.

 

[Yoshi178]

The main point Johnny and I are making is that the Switch (or any past 3 Nintendo systems) will get say 1 out of every 5 multiplatform releases while every other platform gets like 90% of them.

how exactly do you measure Nintendo getting EVERY multiplatform game? that shit doesn't happen overnight and the Nintendo Switch is already very quickly growing it's 3rd party library.

Xbox isn't getting EVERY 3rd Party game either like you like you claim. it didn't get Dragon Quest Builders nor is it getting Valkyria Chronicles 4. those games are only on PS4 & Switch but not Xbone

PlayStation and Xbox getting 3rd-party support happened overnight. Literally the 1st PlayStation got more games than Nintendo and Sega systems when Sony was the new kid on the block. Xbox got a good about of 3rd-party support in its 1st console and more than Nintendo's Gamecube got. All Nintendo has to do is make a system with power close to the competition with the same architecture and the system will magically get 3rd-party support overnight.

We're talking about Nintendo Switch. not Retro game consoles. and news flash. the N64 was more Powerful than the PS1 and the Gamecube was also more powerful than the PS2 and yes Nintendo get as much 3rd Party support back then.

you literally just disproved your own statement. Nintendo making a console that's as powerful as the competition will not "magically" get Nintendo 3rd Party support from EVERY 3rd Party developer over night.

Though Xbone is getting Valkyria Chronicles 4, I don't know why you think it's not.

my mistake. i have only seen it being advertised for PS4 and Switch so i just assumed it wasn't on Xbox One. you are correct though. that game is on Xbox One.

I don't have to look up game news to see if PS4 is getting a certain game, I just assume it will be because it's probably at least a 90% chance that it will.

well as i just proved with Valkyria Chronicles 4 just now, when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

most websites are "assuming" that Spyro Reignited Trilogy is going to be on Nintendo Switch at moment. by your logic that should already mean the Switch is getting great 3rd Party support.


and i don't own a PS4 but i do own an Xbox One and i do actually have to look stuff up if i want to know what's on it. i didn't know exactly which games were on Rare Replay until i looked up the details.

just because you can't be arsed to watch trailers and read game news articles doesn't mean everyone else is like that too. i'm obviously a fan of Nintendo games for the most part and i don't have to *look up* every game coming to the Switch. i watch things like Nintendo direct and i watch a youtube channel called Gamexplain not because i "have" to look stuff. but because i want to be informed and keep up to date with Nintendo news when games get announced. i probably wouldn't be buying Octopath Traveller this july if i didn't bother to keep up with that stuff.

if it was playstation stuff i was interested in buying, then i would definitely be looking that stuff up to. not just assuming things like you are.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

We're talking about Nintendo Switch. not Retro game consoles. and news flash. the N64 was more Powerful than the PS1 and the Gamecube was also more powerful than the PS2 and yes Nintendo get as much 3rd Party support back then.

you literally just disproved your own statement. Nintendo making a console that's as powerful as the competition will not "magically" get Nintendo 3rd Party support from EVERY 3rd Party developer over night.

most websites are "assuming" that Spyro Reignited Trilogy is going to be on Nintendo Switch at moment. by your logic that should already mean the Switch is getting great 3rd Party support.

and i don't own a PS4 but i do own an Xbox One and i do actually have to look stuff up if i want to know what's on it. i didn't know exactly which games were on Rare Replay until i looked up the details.

The N64 and GC had issues outside of being on the same power level. The N64 used outdated cartridges classic games from that era couldn't use like the Final Fantasys and Metal Gear Solid. The GC used a miniDVD along with not really the standard controller with a gimped right stick and missing a shoulder button. Nintendo were also dicks to 3rd-parties.

Nintendo making a console that's as powerful with the addition of not being dicks will get them 3rd-party support overnight. Also, the times are definitely different where 3rd-parties lose out on so much making games console exclusive that they don't anymore; there's no fighting to get say Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid or Resident Evil or GTA. Games that publishers need to get millions of sales on aren't platform exclusive anymore. PS4/Xbone is getting PC game support just because they made consoles with PC architecture and a good amount of RAM. Just like you said times have changed, we aren't talking retro consoles, we're talking current consoles, and it ain't hard to get support these days; Kickstarted PC games end up on PS4/Xbone for crying out loud nowadays. If Sony and Microsoft could get 3rd-party support back in the old days overnight, then why can't Nintendo in these more simpler times?

Oh come on. Looking up whether some EA, Ubisoft, Activision, Rockstar game is coming to Xbone vs looking up what 30 games are in some retro collection are 2 very different things. What major 3rd-party release isn't on Xbone? Do you think that new Battlefield 5 game even has a 1% chance of not being on PC or PS4 or Xbone? Is anyone assuming the Switch is getting BF5? Nope. Assuming 1 game is coming to Switch (because another very very similar game from the same publisher is coming to Switch) vs me assuming PS4 is getting every game that isn't 1st-party are 2 very different things. The only games that you might have to look up to confirm the Xbone getting are niche Japanese games.

 

[Yoshi178]

Snip

blah blah blah. excuse's excuse's.

even if 3rd Parties announced 100's of games tonight you'd still say something like "that's good but this has to happen every night for the next 5 years in order to actually PROVE that 3rd Parties are here to stay. then i'll say Nintendo has good 3rd Party support"

and even when Nintendo consoles actually WERE more powerful than Playstation consoles and didn't get heaps of third party support just for being more powerful. you STILL use the excuse of "B-B-But the software wasn't on a DVD disc like Playstations was."





it's just excuse after excuse with you. you aren't ever going to change your mind about Nintendo so let's just end it here.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I don't understand the reluctance for third party support. It's clearly what most people want for Nintendo (poll at your disposal) and there's everything to be gained from it. It's also what most people miss from Nintendo's glory days. Treating a remaster of a six year old game everybody and their mother has already played as this big win is small potatos.