Sympathy for the Devil

[Abedeus]

Yes, in The World Ends With You.

Spoiler

The Conductor was actually trying to SAVE the Shibuya, and not kill the main characters. He died, but both the protagonists and the town was saved. Kinda sad..

 

[Irridium]

To the point of madness. Past achievements are no get out of jail free card when you start acting like a genocidal dick. He speaks of Cailan being single-minded, and yet here we have Loghain only ever thinking about one thing ever: the "safety" of Ferelden. Safety through police-state politics. He who would sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither.

But Loghain was not a genocidal dick. He never wanted to kill off an entire species, except maybe the Darkspawn, but then again everyone in the world wants them all to die. And that last sentence never made sense to me. You can't have a strong and prosperous nation without security. And as for freedom, well yeah that kind of a dick move, but considering there's a massive evil coming to destroy the world, I think some sacrifice is in order. At least if you want to live.

Actually, I let Alistair kill him. I wanted to resolve the whole thing peacefully, because while I strongly disagreed with the actions Loghain had taken, I can understand how he would believe he was doing the right thing all along.

I didn't have Alistair kill him, I spared his life(not because I thought he was a hero or anything, but because he was a brilliant strategist and may still be able to help). Then Alistair got all pissy and left. Which shows Alistair isn't that great. He's willing to put his personal vendetta's above the good of the nation and its safety. But we're talking about Loghain here, so I'll stop talking about Alistair.

Okay, so all of a sudden getting rid of anything that stands in your way is assumed to be for the "greater good?" Again, this sounds like the logic of a madman, justifying his actions for himself any way he can.

Again, "great evil thats coming to destroy the entire world" seems like a pretty solid justification. Of course he could have done things a better way, but that would take much more time then simply eliminating them. Time he, and Ferelden, did not have.

If you read the epilogue in regards to the elves, they end up far better off. At peace with the humans, for a time at least, and able to work their way up the societal ladder like anyone else. ESPECIALLY if you yourself play as an elf. They are left in much higher regard for that. He's fooling himself if he thinks elves in slavery weren't subjected to torture, rape and murder just more so than free elves.

Thats true. And its a shame, Bioware missed a good chance at giving us a choice that doesn't have any right answers. Save Elves, but they'd still live in poverty and be under extreme prejudice? Or sell them, have them give up their freedom's for a possible chance at a better life. Missed opportunity that is.

Duncan was kind of naive, but he had the right idea in mind. His faith in the Grey Wardens was well placed. Obviously his faith in Loghain was not.

Because Loghain didn't have faith in the Wardens, for reasons I already listed.

If you'll recall, Duncan asked Loghain prior to the battle whether or not they should wait for support from the Orlesians. Loghain of course rejected the idea outright on the basis of simple-minded prejudice. A true strategist would either accept help from any willing to offer it, or convince the king to postpone the battle until they had gathered a larger army. Not lay out a plan for the battle, and then fail to follow through with that plan; a plan that he conceived, mind you.

Loghain fought to get rid of the Orlesians. The memory of their occupation and the resulting battles would still be on his mind, and more on his thoughts since he knew they would be coming back. Yes its true his fears may have been unfounded, but he fought them, he knew them, saw what they did to his nation, to the people, and to let them back after pushing them out would be a major problem for him.

And he did try to talk sense into Cailen(the king, probably spelled his name wrong). Loghain tried to talk to him, but Cailen was too swept up in the idea of riding into battle with the Grey Wardens. He was too focused on personal glory and did not treat the situation as it should have been treated. To him it wasn't a battle with a deadly enemy that may destroy Ferelden, it was a glorious battle with the Wardens. Loghain noticed this, and knew he wouldn't be a good king if he put personal glory before the well-being of his nation.

Loghain could have tried to restrain him before the battle, but then he may have been tried with treason and then executed.

This would be reasonable if true. But there were only two Wardens left in Ferelden, not two Wardens left in all of the lands. I'm sure that he had even himself convinced that the Wardens were truly to blame for everything, and so if he had succeeded in killing you and Alistair, his priority would have been to weed out the rest of the Wardens prior to confronting the darkspawn threat. He would have done this to ensure his claim to power by gaining public trust.

Chances are he already believed the wardens to be dead. He created the bounty simply to take care of any that might have survived. To him, the wardens are dead, and even if a few survived, a couple wardens couldn't do much. This would allow him to focus on getting the nobles to work with him so he could combat the darkspawn.

Then you muck it all up by telling those mercenaries at the tavern in Lothering that the Wardens are coming for him(although I think you could tell them to not say anything, or just kill them, but I never did that so I don't know what effect it has. Probably nothing, since he's already alerted to your survival after you do a couple missions for elves/dwarves/mages/Eamon, ect) which probably did god knows what to his psyche.

This part I agree with. It was on the Grey Wardens to keep that information a secret as they did. But as mentioned above, there's no reason that the Wardens should have been blamed for something that never should have happened to begin with.

Again, he needed someone to blame so he could focus on uniting the nobles and building an army.

Finally, you're kidding yourself if you didn't believe that Loghain had planned for months or even years in advance over how he might overthrow the throne. He never gave Cailan respect as a person, let alone as a king. That becomes blatantly obvious when you ask for an audience with him prior to the battle at Ostagar.

He couldn't have planned for the Darkspawn. Yeah he didn't really like Cailen being king, since he seemed more like a child who's more interested in glory. However since Ferelden was rather peaceful, it didn't matter much. But when the Darkspawn showed up, and Loghain saw Cailen still didn't see the threat for what it was, and was more focused on the glory of fighting with the Wardens, it cemented the fact that he wasn't the type of king that was needed to face this threat. And since he couldn't be made to see how serious the threat is(after warnings from both the Wardens and Loghain), he showed he wasn't suitable to be a king.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Teyrn Loghain from Dragon Age Origins.

Long have I hated that asshole. Then while on the internet someone blew my mind about his character and I now see him as one of the greatest hero's ever. Yes, hero. More of a hero then you were.

Spoiler: The following is the post I'm talking about:

Bioware makes teh good gaemz. It's hard to dispute that. And in 2009, they released one of their finest games ever: Dragon Age: Origins.

A throwback to old school RPG's, Dragon Age: Origins was a massive treat to a large part of the role-play gamer demographic. Yet even though people praised it, they all failed to notice something through their first playthrough of the game. Something that some people are still oblivious to.

BIOWARE MADE YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL!

They turned you into a narrow-minded goodie two-shoes that, in reality, would have spelled out the doom of the world. But Bioware were cruel and let you live oblivious to the fact that you were a dumbass that can't save a country for shit.

How did they do this, you ask? It's simple!

Meet the true hero of Ferelden:

Here is the man that liberated Ferelden from an oppressing nation that had occupied the country for 100 years. Here is the man that saved his homeland from a monarch that cared more about glory then what is best for everyone. Here is the man that had a purpose behind everything that he did, a man that only cared for the safety of his kinsmen.

And you totally killed him.

Don't deny it. You did. You killed him so Alistair wouldn't leave your team. You killed him because he was, from your naive and unfocused perspective, a meanie head.

But he never was.

You hate him because he killed your noble family? Sacrifices for the greater good. They, like you, would be too narrow-minded to see the bigger picture and would oppose him. Having Howe murder the shit out of them would get rid of opposition and strengthen the support from one of your allies.

You hate him because he enslaved elves? That's true, it's a dickish thing to do. He should have ignored them and let them live in poverty and subject them to prejudice. Why give them the chance to at least live someplace decent when he could just have them live in the incredibly shitty place they're currently residing in? It's not like they are regularly harassed by rapist nobl-Oh wait. So yeah, you saved them so they can continue living in poverty and saved them just in time so they could be murdered relentlessly by the Darkspawn. Way to go, hero.

You hate him because he killed Duncan? Let me ask you something. How well do you know Duncan? Did you, at any point, find that he has a personality? Did you ever stop to consider that he is incredibly bland and boring, and that he only cares about ending the blight and doesn't let anything else enter his mind? Ever realized that he's narrow-minded? Or that he looks kinda Hindu?

You hate him because he abandoned the army at Ostagar and made you look like a villain? Here's a little information: Even if Loghain would have stayed and helped, there was a very, very big chance that they would still lose. More people would've died, and it would be impossible to stop the Darkspawn from destroying Ferelden.

And as for you Wardens, what the crap was he supposed to do? He needed someone to put the blame on, and you were only two people. TWO PEOPLE. That's a pretty measly sacrifice for the safety of the nation.

You hate him because he nearly doomed the country by trying to kill the Grey Wardens, who are the only people physically able to kill the Archdemon? You know who you should hate for that? THE ENTIRE FUCKING GREY WARDEN ORGANIZATION! They were the ones who kept this entire ordeal secret, even for the fucking King. Loghain didn't know that a Grey Warden was needed to kill an Archdemon, because he was never told how it worked. He was told that they were needed to kill it for some vague, unspecific reason, but would you seriously, unconditionally believe that? I know I wouldn't, cause it would be fucking stupid.

And so to anyone who killed Loghain thinking he deserved it: YOU ARE WRONG! He is, in fact, much more of a hero than you. He didn't have no fucking Deus Ex Machina treaties that you had. He had to build an army from scratch. He couldn't save the country without making sacrifice, like you somehow were able to do thanks to the power of love. All this time Loghain has been the real hero, while the main character has been living a cliche lie. A lie that makes Dragon Age even more fucking brilliant than it already is, because several times over that lie makes you do decisions that bites you in the ass.

(Though it's a shame that Bioware are often too retarded to think more than 5 minutes ahead of the story, otherwise you wouldn't be able to simply reload a slightly older save to fix something you eventually found out to be a bad choice. LEARN FROM THE WITCHER, BIOWARE!)

So yeah. Thats why I feel sorry for Loghain.

Also Saren. He was just trying to do what he thought was best, which was "save some people rather then having everyone everywhere die", then had his views warped by Sovereign, eventually becoming indoctrinated without realizing it. Eventually he kills himself because he knows what he has become, and that he can never go back.

Except Loghain was completely unwilling to fight the true threat that was facing Ferelden, and was too consumed with politics, wrongfully usurping the throne, and his extreme paranoia regarding Olesians that under his rule Ferelden would have collapsed completely.

Also, you have to remember that in the Dragon Age world, EVERY SINGLE BLIGHT has been stopped by a Grey Warden. Its well known history; nearly everyone you talk to, even simple farmers and guards, know that Grey Wardens are important. Loghain only kills them because they are so popular, and are so close to the Royal Family. They would have been a true obstacle to his coup, given the influence they wield (as we see in the game). Plus, the Wardens make it perfectly clear why they don't reveal the secret of their powers. If they did, no one would ever volunteer to be a Grey Warden, no matter how important they were.

I didn't kill Loghain because he was a jerk. I didn't kill him because I liked Alistair. I killed him because, if he was in charge, he would have fettered his army away in a civil war while the Darkspawn destroyed everything. They were the real, and only, threat. Loghain was simply too shortsighted and paranoid to see that.

Also, THE GUY COMMITS REGICIDE. And while Cailan might have been a bit of a dink, he was still the rightful holder of the throne and a popular king to boot. And as the rest of the game shows, Cailan's decision to face the blight head-on, providing full support to the Wardens, was actually the correct one, no matter what Loghain thought.

 

[Internet Kraken]

Well in the first Mass Effect I felt some sympathy for the Geth, since I figured that had the Quarians not tried to kill them all they might not have developed a hatred for organic life. But Mass Effect 2 changes that all so it doesn't really count.

 

[Fetzenfisch]

If you can count Yuri as an antagonist, then him. Or Kane. Kane was the hero of my childhood and youth.
In movies there is that dude from Die Hard 4.0 I wanted him to win so hard. He managed some awesome stuff though befor they got him.
Chaotic visionairies are just too cool.

Not really, but I love the song! =D

No insult macky but where is this post of higher content than scrumpmonkeys? (his was even funnier)

this is not directed at you but at the randomness of moderation on here that annoys me extremely.

 

[MrGalactus]

Well in the first Mass Effect I felt some sympathy for the Geth, since I figured that had the Quarians not tried to kill them all they might not have developed a hatred for organic life. But Mass Effect 2 changes that all so it doesn't really count.

Me too. They can't help what they do, that makes me sad. It was clever of the writers to make them soulless robots to take away feelings of guilt from the player except from in certain situations.

My choice isn't from a game, mine is the Joker from The Dark Night. Now, I'm not one of those people obsessed with the character because he's weird or something, I just think he was established as a much more likeable character in the first half than Batman, so I guess that's why I wanted him to win right up until half way through the second half.

 

[Irridium]

Spoiler: Xzi

You can indeed have a prosperous nation without security. Security comes from being invaluable to the world around you. Look at Sweden, for example.

While he may not have been intentionally genocidal, it occurs to me that he didn't care about the fate of anyone except for the humans in Ferelden. He would have left the Dwarves to themselves to fall, enslaved the elves, and most likely gone to war with the Orlesians again at some point. The naivety of Cailan was a small crime compared to the over-zealousness of Loghain.

But Ferelden was not invaluable to the world around it. From what I saw and took in, its only at the forefront because of the Darkspawn. There's nothing really remarkable or valuable about it.

He tried sending someone to talk with the Dwarves, but couldn't get in because their city was closed due to the death of their king, and the infighting between Harromont and Bhelin. He was shipping the elves away to slavery because thats all he really could have done. If he tried being diplomatic, none of the nobles would want much to do with him, since he's an elf sympathizer. And I doubt much elves would come to help him if he asked, considering how badly they've been treated. The only way to deal with the elves would be to ship them off into slavery. Or he could try forcing them to fight, but I doubt that would have worked so well either. Or he could have just done nothing while the Darkspawn kill them all.

And besides he doesn't have the power of love, goodness, and bunnies on his side like you do. Not everything can be solved with nice words. He had to appease the nobles, and being nice to the elves would not win much of them over. Yes they oppose slavery of them, but thats pretty much the only crime against elves they don't like.

Here you talk about putting personal vendettas above logic, and yet that's exactly what Loghain did with the Orlesians and Ostagar. The Orlesians had once wronged Loghain, and Loghain had once wronged Alistair, and neither of them could get past it. Two wrongs don't make a right, but nobody died from Alistair storming off. A lot of people died when Loghain stormed off from Ostagar.

And many more would have died if Loghain had stayed and fight. He might have been killed as well. And since this was an actual blight with a proper Archdemon, they would have been dealing with the main Darkspawn army. Chances are they would have lost no matter what. And if Loghain stayed, or have gotten the re-enforcements, they may have all died, or perhaps the Darkspawn would have attacked early and taken everyone out.

If he had stayed, Ferelden would certainly have been doomed, since pretty much all of the army would have been lost.

Those aren't the terms he was thinking in. He simply wanted power, and destroyed anything that got in his way. He began to convince himself that anything he did was helpful to Ferelden, whether it was morally right or wrong, true or not.

It didn't seem like that to me. He wanted to keep Ferelden safe, and the only way to do that was to be in power. So he got into power the only way he could at the time, let the king die and take the throne. Then he'd be able to do what he had to to keep the people safe.

I don't think they missed out on anything. Not everything IRL is a no-win situation, and nor should everything in storytelling be. This was just one of those times that Loghain showed his true colors.

This is Dragon Age. A game hyped as being morally grey, a game hyped for having choices that are "no win situations", I kind of expect a lot of choices, especially this one, to be morally grey.

And yeah, not everything has to be so grey, but isn't it better when it is? You have a choice, make the one you think is right, and defend it. Its so much more satisfying then just picking the completely right option. At least it is to me.

See paragraphs one and two. The everlasting prejudices in his mind were in the end a greater threat to Ferelden than any one invading force. When the lives of everyone in your nation are at risk, you don't let these things factor in. The Orlesians had just as much reason for wanting to see the Darkspawn threat eliminated as Ferelden did. It should be noted that if anyone else but Loghain had been in this position, they would have called in the Orlesian reinforcements and won the battle with little trouble. That's just the truth of it. This one lapse in judgment is what set off the entire chain of events afterward. Ferelden wouldn't have needed a hero such as yourself to fight against impossible odds.

There's no way the Orlesians would have been able to get to Ostagar in time. The battle was that night, they were apparently days away. I doubt the Darkspawn would have been nice enough to wait. They would have attacked, wiped out the main Ferelden army, then by the time the Orlesians got there, the Darkspawn would have gotten them as well.

Loghain left Ostagar because he knew the battle was lost. If he stayed, it would have been a much greater loss.

And yet we never saw him take any action against the darkspawn whatsoever. He never even sent scouting parties to gather information on them, or sent raiding parties to their weakest points. All he ever did while you were out gathering a massive army was much political posturing and consorting with less-than-reputable characters such as Howe and the Crows. He was gathering power, but it was never clear as to exactly what purpose he intended to use that power for. His motivations were never on the surface, and that made him dangerous. To everybody.

Because he had to get the nobles on his side. It was either that or just kill them all. And if he had truly fallen, he would have just killed them all. Again, you can't just up and go "we need to work together to beat the darkspawn, so everyone listen!". Nobody would go with it. He had to convince them to do it. Also, he did have an army. What was left of the army at Ostagar was his army, he just needed to bolster it after the loss of the King's forces.

And again, the only reason there was a need for someone to be blamed in the first place was because he screwed up at Ostagar. In several key ways. There would be no need to lie if he wasn't doing something wrong.

He didn't really "screw up". He saw the battle was lost, and took what men he had and retreated. If he had stayed, chances are he, and that large army, would have died. Leaving Ferelden without an army.

Right, so when the darkspawn came, he should have set aside his shady aspirations for the throne and instead focused entirely on working with Cailan and whatever other allies he could muster to destroy the darkspawn. That would have been best for Ferelden. Instead, he used the battle at Ostagar as an opportunity to reject outside help and betray Cailan, meaning that every choice he had to make at critical junctures ended up being the wrong choices.

Cailan may not have been entirely fit to lead, but at no point was he making two out of three choices wrongly. And thus Loghain was even less of a qualified leader.

He tried working with Cailan, but Cailan wouldn't listen. Every time Loghain tried talking to him, Cailan just cast him aside, instead more focused on personal glory.

What happened at Ostagar sucked, but there wasn't much else he could have done. Even if he accepted help from the Orlesians, they wouldn't have gotten there on time, and if he stayed, he would probably have died.

Yes he could have used them after he retreated, but there's no telling what they would have done when the Darkspawn were dealt with. The Orlesians could have used that as an opportunity to take over Ferelden again. I doubt it would have been an obvious "this is now all ours" thing, but they'd end up first saying they're just "protecting a weakened Ferelden", then move they're way up the political chain. There's no telling what would happen. To Loghain, they would have dealt with the Darkspawn, then they'd be dealing with another enemy.

After all, I doubt the Orlesians would just leave. No nation is that nice to its former enemy.

Spoiler: Ordinaryundone

Except Loghain was completely unwilling to fight the true threat that was facing Ferelden, and was too consumed with politics, wrongfully usurping the throne, and his extreme paranoia regarding Olesians that under his rule Ferelden would have collapsed completely.

Also, you have to remember that in the Dragon Age world, EVERY SINGLE BLIGHT has been stopped by a Grey Warden. Its well known history; nearly everyone you talk to, even simple farmers and guards, know that Grey Wardens are important. Loghain only kills them because they are so popular, and are so close to the Royal Family. They would have been a true obstacle to his coup, given the influence they wield (as we see in the game). Plus, the Wardens make it perfectly clear why they don't reveal the secret of their powers. If they did, no one would ever volunteer to be a Grey Warden, no matter how important they were.

I didn't kill Loghain because he was a jerk. I didn't kill him because I liked Alistair. I killed him because, if he was in charge, he would have fettered his army away in a civil war while the Darkspawn destroyed everything. They were the real, and only, threat. Loghain was simply too shortsighted and paranoid to see that.

Also, THE GUY COMMITS REGICIDE. And while Cailan might have been a bit of a dink, he was still the rightful holder of the throne and a popular king to boot. And as the rest of the game shows, Cailan's decision to face the blight head-on, providing full support to the Wardens, was actually the correct one, no matter what Loghain thought.

He was willing to face the Darkspawn. Which is why he was busy in politics, he was trying to get the nobles on his side. Unlike you, he doesn't have any treaties that guarantee support, he had to do it the old fashioned way, by going through politics.

And the problem with the Wardens could have been solved with Duncan talking to Loghain in private for 5 minutes to explain why the Wardens were needed to kill the Archdemon.

He wasn't shortsighted. Your focus was on the Darkspawn, and getting all the help you could to fight them. But what about after? You think that large Orlesian army would just walk away from a really weak Ferelden? No nation is that nice. You'd have saved Ferelden, but you would most likely have also started another Orlesian occupation.

And just because your popular, doesn't mean your a good king. This reminds me of Fable 3.

Spoiler: Fable 3 spoilers follow

In Fable 3, you get to be king. But you also learn that a great evil is coming in 1 year's time. You have 2 ways to proceed throughout this 1 year. You can be a popular king, doing what the people wish and making them happy. Or you could be a tyrant and do unpopular things, making them hate you.

Know what happens? If your a "good" king, everbody dies. Because you were too focused on making them happy rather then making sure they'll live. You made them happy, but they're all dead now.

Whereas if you pick the tyrant road, everybody lives. Yes that year was hell, but at least everybody and their children are alive to see another year at life.

Although Fable 3 handles this potentially fantastic concept rather poorly. But thats a discussion for another time.

Point is, just because your popular, doesn't mean your what the people need. Ferelden needed a leader that was willing to do what was necessary, a leader to put the future and well-being of the people first. Cailen wouldn't have done this. Loghain would have. He was willing to make sacrifices. And no he wouldn't have chosen to attack Orlais or provoke them, since that would mean another war and another occupation. He would have avoided that.

 

[BioHazardMan]

I felt for Andrew Ryan in Bioshock (would you kindly count him?)

 

[Retardinator]

I never had Alma down as an antagonist. That was much more Fettel to me.

Spoiler

Alma at the end was no different to a rabid dog.
That dog is still a good dog.

I get this alllllll the time in films, too. Most notably, Patrick Bateman.

Ridiculous. I thought nobody was gonna say that. And at the beginning of the thread, as well. You, sir, are a master ninja.

 

[Trolldor]

Does Andrew Ryan qualify? If so then yes.

Also Zeus from the God of War games. Basically Kratos was acting evil and Zeus was justified in doing that. Not that I have no sympathy for Kratos.

Actually, Ares fucks Kratos up originally, then Zeus fucks Kratos up because he feared him, not because he was doing wrong.

 

[Captain Pancake]

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name...

Arthas from WoW (hold your horses trolls), there's something sort of shakesperean to his downfall (I mean in the style of his demise not 'ye olde tragedie') that appeals to me. Plus when he finally goes you see a bit of his humanity again, so he seems more like a victim of the overall scheme than the perpetrator, yet in a way he's both.

 

[dancinginfernal]

Loghain Mac Tir via Dragon Age: Origins.

Noble intentions to start, if only for fear of his life and people. He thought you were trying to take everything he has away from him,

Spoiler

and I hate having to kill him so Alistair stays.

If you let him live and marry Anora, he visits you in Awakening. He's an awesome Father-In-Law.

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name...

Arthas from WoW (hold your horses trolls), there's something sort of shakesperean to his downfall (I mean in the style of his demise not 'ye olde tragedie') that appeals to me. Plus when he finally goes you see a bit of his humanity again, so he seems more like a victim of the overall scheme than the perpetrator, yet in a way he's both.

Did you play Warcraft III & Frozen Throne?

I love him before WoW. His downfall and corruption are just very well done from what I can remember.

 

[Sir Prize]

Well....Dragon Age Awakening gives you more information on the Darkspawn, so there's a little sympathy there. Also, The Mother, yes she's a broodmothers and bloody insane, but the main reason for that is explained.

Also, Zone of the Enders Viola, it was all fine until she gave her final speech at the end, then it felt really sad. Also, some of the badguys from Zone of the Ender: Fist of Mars were pretty tragic characters, it's a staple of the series.

Alma also goes here for reasons other have explained.

 

[EightGaugeHippo]

"Pleased to meet you! Hope you get my name."


OT: King Logan from Fable III

Spoiler

All through the game he was made out to be a dick, but all he was doing was saving up money to protect Albion. He had to put the extortionate taxes in place so he could build the army, but if he told the people what was heppening, fear would run rampant and Albion would tear itself apart anyway. And when it came to be my turn to make those disicions I found it really hard to make judgement.

 

[imperialreign]

This thread needs more Sympathy for the Devil...

Spoiler: Woo woo

TBH, I kinda prefer G&R's version a bit more:

Spoiler: G&R cover

Nice to see this thread has stirred some healthy debate, though. It's actually spurned some interest for me for a few games I've passed by over the years.