The Army (Specifically the Canadian Forces)

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CanadianWolverine

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Mykail.Morrier said:
however, anyone who says soldiers are trained to kill is correct... only the emphasis they place on it makes it sound like we're a bunch of child murdering sociopaths, and I'm not a big fan of that classification.
Er, I don't know why it would 'sound' like that, unless you are implying you are fighting child combatants. Also, it can't be murder, soldiers under direct orders are legally allowed by their respective country to apply lethal force, its only murder if you break with the standing Rules of Engagement as set out by your higher ranks. And finally, sociopathic behavior is exactly what killing is, you are hunting fellow human beings after all and trying to avoid becoming the hunted yourself.

One major difference though is soldiers are taught discipline, self restraint and following other people's orders is not something a sociopath, especially one hunting children, is likely to have as character traits, unless perhaps they are serial sociopaths skilled in avoiding detection so they can continue their hunt.

Killing is killing. To kill another human being, you need to kill a part of yourself along with them.

I hope the whole business with Afghanistan ends soon, I want to see my fellow Canadians come home ASAP. I've talked to some who have served there and we aren't accomplishing squat TBH, and hind sight being what it is, I have serious doubts now that we should have ever gone there in the first place.
 

Dalisclock

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I'm in the US military(Navy, to be specific) and I will just make the following points, based on my experience.

1. Money tends to be less then civilian jobs but there tend to be other benefits to make up for it(to some extent).

2. You will likely be deployed, depending on your job in the military. You may be out of the country for up to a year at a time. Even when not out of the country, you will still have to relocate on a regular basis and may have to work crazy hours with no overtime.

3. Your freedom will be extremely restricted while in basic training. There will be virtually no contact with the world outside for a couple weeks/months. When I enlisted, I was told by a chief(Navy E-7), quite frankly "You're going to a concentration camp for 2 months". He was quite right. It wasn't as bad, though, as it looked in the movies(Full Metal Jacket). After that, you're freedom will be somewhat less restricted depending upon job and command, and probably ease up after a few months.

4. Discipline and structure tend to be big, but again, vary on where you are at, what you do, who your boss is and what kind of person you are. Some people like it and some people hate it. You will rarely hear "That is an order"(if you do, it's a bad thing), but you do have to do everything your boss tells you to do(granted, that's true at pretty much any job. In the military they just have more ways to punish you if you refuse or do particularly poorly). If you can't stand being told what to do and where to go, then don't consider it.

5. Along with that, after a while, it basically becomes like another job. If not deployed, you come to work and go home at more or less set times. Do your job well and don't be a shithead and unless your boss is a total dick, you'll probably be left to do your job without being told how to do every single thing. Normally, if you're willing to improve yourself, people will help you do so. While you can be punished heavily, what I've seen is that your boss would rather tell you what you did wrong, and how to fix it, before moving to more drastic measures(unless you did something really, really wrong that you should know damn well not to do, in which case it goes directly to the UCMJ).

4. This adds up to: Military life tends to be hard on family life. I've seen a lot of people's relationships with their SO's go to shit due to their job pressures. Your spouse will be able to come with you in country, but not into a combat zone or on deployment. Communication will probably be tenous, at best, on deployment.

I actually consider myself fortunate that I wasn't married when I joined up 2 years ago, because I'm sure I'd be divorced right now if I were.

5. Yes, the military main job is to kill people and break things, but not everyone actually goes out and does this up close. There are a wide variety of jobs that have civilian counterparts. At least in the US Army, the numbers I've heard is up to 27 support personnel for each actual person in combat. For other branchs, this ratio is higher(though for the Navy, one could argue that everyone is both support and front line at the same time). And there are a lot of useful skills that can be learned, depending on job.

Granted, you have to be physically/mentally able to handle this job. In the US military, everyone is given a test called the ASVAAB which is used to determine what jobs you qualify for, with higher scores required for more specialized and technical jobs. Front line combat jobs(infantry) tends to be at the bottom of the range. Of course, even if you qualify for a higher skilled job, you can still pick a lower skilled one if you really want to do that. You can ask to be a supply clerk even if you scored well enough to be considered for EOD(Explosive Ordance Disposal AKA defuse bombs). Wether you enjoy your job is most important.

My job will never require me to pick up a gun and teaches me certain specialized and hard to obtain skills. There are other occupational dangers, but enemy gunfire is near the bottom of the list of ways I'm likely to be killed. There's no chance in hell I'll ever be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan(on the other hand, the gulf is very likely). There's a lot of stress and long hours, however, that goes along with that.

5. That said: I don't know much about the Canadian military(other then it apparently is not divided into branches like most other countries), but it's probably similar. If you want to spend time with your family, don't bother enlisting. If you really want to serve, then look into it, but ask a lot of questions(and not just recruiters) and look at jobs that you might like. As I've said, I've met people who stayed in until they were forced out because they liked it so much(my Parents both served 20 years. Both say they didn't regret it. Hell, my mom had to retire at 20 due to her rank. She would have remained in if they had let her). And I've met a lot of people who just hate it(95% of my co-workers in my department).

If you read none of the above, a quick review:

-You can serve for a full career and never pick up a gun, except maybe in basic training. Pick a job that is non-combat if you want to join.

-Military life is stressful and hard on family life. That has got to be faced and resolved with your SO before thinking about joining.

-Military life is not for everyone. There are a lot of people I'd tell not to join, but on the other hand, one can enjoy their time and get a lot out of it. I'm trying to milk my time for all it's worth, so when I finally do become a civilian(in 6 years or more), I can say "I've done what I wanted to do and got what I could out of it. I'm ready to move on".
 

Larenxis

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cleverlymadeup said:
Larenxis said:
I believe there are many things worth dying for, extremely few things worth killing for, and what Canada is doing now falls into neither category.
you mean peace keeping isn't worth it? that's all canada is doing is trying to keep the peace

canada doesn't really go to war that often, when we do it's for the right reason, that's why we never went into iraq the second time, there was no proof and everyone blamed Cretien for it and low and behold he was right
So... hard to... restrain... myself...I wouldn't want to lead this thread off track, but I'd love to have a discussion with you about this war. Whether via another thread or private messaging. Phew!
 

Easykill

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Larenxis said:
cleverlymadeup said:
Larenxis said:
I believe there are many things worth dying for, extremely few things worth killing for, and what Canada is doing now falls into neither category.
you mean peace keeping isn't worth it? that's all canada is doing is trying to keep the peace

canada doesn't really go to war that often, when we do it's for the right reason, that's why we never went into iraq the second time, there was no proof and everyone blamed Cretien for it and low and behold he was right
So... hard to... restrain... myself...I wouldn't want to lead this thread off track, but I'd love to have a discussion with you about this war. Whether via another thread or private messaging. Phew!
I agree with Larenxis on this one...
 

nightfish

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Oh-Wiseone said:
Alotak said:
Im British and so have this 'view' of the American Army, I know before i say this that it is probably completely wrong but, How come so many more of your guys have died compared to us (percentage not numbers before you think number of forces) and why do you keep killing our troops and news reporters?

Don't bann me i want to see peoples views, as i cannot understand it myself so i need to see before making a judgment.
If you're talking about Iraq its because Basra is a much more stable part of the country than Baghdad or Al-Anbar, which is where the American forces are.
Same thing goes for Afghanistan as well, the most US troops are posted around the main mountain passes between Afghanistan and Pakistan, hence where all the fighters come into the country from.
I'd have you know that Helmand province in Afghanistan where the UK is based is not 'safe'. Tell that to the families of three soldiers killed there this week.

@ original quote here. Yes the US does have a scarily high number of friendly fire incidents.

As for joining the army well go for it. Good career, even better if you go in as an officer.
 

Ultrajoe

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@ OP

Im not a military man, but id say there's no 'if you are X then this is for you'.

I personally looked at the military and found it was not for me, i think there's a better way to preserve human life than sending lead into their innards.
 

poleboy

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Ever played chess? You're standing around minding around your own business, guarding the king, and suddenly some horse comes down on you like a ton of bricks and it's all over.

Don't do it man. You don't want to be that pawn.
 

nightfish

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Ultrajoe said:
@ OP

Im not a military man, but id say there's no 'if you are X then this is for you'.

I personally looked at the military and found it was not for me, i think there's a better way to preserve human life than sending lead into their innards.
The military is not just about killing you know. I know the UK military also stops drug smuggling, rescues people from the waters around the UK and we have a big contingent doing peace keeping in various areas of the world.
 

Ultrajoe

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nightfish said:
Ultrajoe said:
@ OP

Im not a military man, but id say there's no 'if you are X then this is for you'.

I personally looked at the military and found it was not for me, i think there's a better way to preserve human life than sending lead into their innards.
The military is not just about killing you know. I know the UK military also stops drug smuggling, rescues people from the waters around the UK and we have a big contingent doing peace keeping in various areas of the world.
yes, this is true, but is killing is even one part of something duties my feelings aren't altered.
 

PurpleRain

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Larenxis said:
cleverlymadeup said:
Larenxis said:
I believe there are many things worth dying for, extremely few things worth killing for, and what Canada is doing now falls into neither category.
you mean peace keeping isn't worth it? that's all canada is doing is trying to keep the peace

canada doesn't really go to war that often, when we do it's for the right reason, that's why we never went into iraq the second time, there was no proof and everyone blamed Cretien for it and low and behold he was right
So... hard to... restrain... myself...I wouldn't want to lead this thread off track, but I'd love to have a discussion with you about this war. Whether via another thread or private messaging. Phew!
Trying not to go against the tide or anything, but I had to study the war in the Middle East for Modern Histroy at school. Believe me, it was worse off without us. Our main job is to build a social structure for their government so they can deal with their problems. It seems miserable, but war generally is. Noone's going to win by killing every terrorist or killing Osama, we just have to build some kind of order.
 

nightfish

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Ultrajoe said:
nightfish said:
Ultrajoe said:
@ OP

Im not a military man, but id say there's no 'if you are X then this is for you'.

I personally looked at the military and found it was not for me, i think there's a better way to preserve human life than sending lead into their innards.
The military is not just about killing you know. I know the UK military also stops drug smuggling, rescues people from the waters around the UK and we have a big contingent doing peace keeping in various areas of the world.
yes, this is true, but is killing is even one part of something duties my feelings aren't altered.
violence is sometimes a necessity.
 

Singing Gremlin

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bluemarsman said:
Alotak said:
and why do you keep killing our troops and news reporters?

What? When did that happen?
There was a friendly fire instance reasonably recently when one of our convoys was attacked by a US air patrol. The worst bit is they were attacked because the high-vis strips they'd attached to their vehicles specifically to identify themselves as friendly were mistaken for the brightly-coloured tips of missiles. Frankly, I just think that being allies, some communication between armies might help.

On topic, I'm personally very tempted to sign up as a helicopter crewman provided I have the balls to actually sign and I'm single at the time.

And to the guy who said you're more likely to get hit by a car as a civvie, that's what we call an utterly misleading statistic. Yes, there are more car accidents than military kills. There are also far, far more civvies driving around in cars than soldiers being shot at. It's common sense. Driving on the motorway is not going to be more dangerous than squatting in a ditch have AKs firing at you.
 

edinflames

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All I think I am qualified to add to this debate (which is leaning towards an argument for or against foreign intervention) is that my good friend's older brother joined the Military Police branch of the army (UK) and served in twice in Iraq, while we (my friend and I) went to college and uni, during his period of service; and though he was lucky not to be wounded he is suffering mentally (again, I am not qualified to go into specifics of mental illness, suffice it to say I think that the MPs around Basra have not had it too easy).
 

Drong

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I have alot of respect for the military and used to be a cadet and stuff and if our country was ever actually under real threat from a foreign aggressor then I would feel it is my duty to sign up and do my bit.

However I don't like our current administration or the American administration and I disagree with their reasons for going to war, who made them the world police anyway? alot of these places are hornets nests and should have been left well alone, and the humanitarian thing is generally BS, I mean look at Dafur and Somalia, places like that, we leave them to kill each other and our governments could not care less, why? Because they don't have natural resources we require, at least not as badly as we require oil.

I've also finally started getting broody recently after years of saying I would never have kids (yeah I'm getting to that age now ;P) and if I did have them in the future then I could not imagine missing their first few years, that's the time when they need you most and the bonds are made.
 

cleverlymadeup

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Larenxis said:
cleverlymadeup said:
Larenxis said:
I believe there are many things worth dying for, extremely few things worth killing for, and what Canada is doing now falls into neither category.
you mean peace keeping isn't worth it? that's all canada is doing is trying to keep the peace

canada doesn't really go to war that often, when we do it's for the right reason, that's why we never went into iraq the second time, there was no proof and everyone blamed Cretien for it and low and behold he was right
So... hard to... restrain... myself...I wouldn't want to lead this thread off track, but I'd love to have a discussion with you about this war. Whether via another thread or private messaging. Phew!
how many people do you know that have been there with the canadian army? cause i've had a couple family members and several friends go over to afghanistan

and guess what they are peace keeping, they aren't actively campaigning and taking things over, they are removing mines and other crap and stopping insurgents and TRYING to keep the peace

so i probly have a lot better view of what's going on over there than you do, cause i actually know ppl who went there
 

Anarchemitis

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[You'd think I'd be more involved, but I'm not because I don't know anything about our military :p ]
 

Saskwach

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PurpleRain said:
Larenxis said:
cleverlymadeup said:
Larenxis said:
I believe there are many things worth dying for, extremely few things worth killing for, and what Canada is doing now falls into neither category.
you mean peace keeping isn't worth it? that's all canada is doing is trying to keep the peace

canada doesn't really go to war that often, when we do it's for the right reason, that's why we never went into iraq the second time, there was no proof and everyone blamed Cretien for it and low and behold he was right
So... hard to... restrain... myself...I wouldn't want to lead this thread off track, but I'd love to have a discussion with you about this war. Whether via another thread or private messaging. Phew!
Trying not to go against the tide or anything, but I had to study the war in the Middle East for Modern Histroy at school. Believe me, it was worse off without us. Our main job is to build a social structure for their government so they can deal with their problems. It seems miserable, but war generally is. Noone's going to win by killing every terrorist or killing Osama, we just have to build some kind of order.
That's pretty much the view I have. The handling of the war had more than its fair share of clusterfucks and there's been some truly despicable incidents, but Iraq is making a slow and painful move towards something much better.
 

JuggernautXUG

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I was thinking about joining the canadian forces when I was 18... the good part is you'll be able to learn a good trade while there, plus it's the canadian forces for the only real danger is friendly fire from US soldiers...

but seeing as though you have a child on the way, I wouldn't suggest joining unless you know what you want to do and if the army can help you with that.
 

Haliwali

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If it weren't for your daughter, I'd say go for it... however I understand having a kid changes that a bit. Hooray celibacy. I'm enlisting to the U.S. Navy next year, planning on staying for life. Financially though, there may be some thing in the service you might not have noticed, like enlistment bonuses. The SEALs (where I plan on going) have a 40k enlistment bonus on completion of training. EOD (Explosive Ordinance Disposal) play with robots AND gets 40K.
 

Editor321

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I was watching Zero Punctuation when I saw the title of this thread so I have come to share some real knowledge and facts:

I have spent three years in a reserve unit and found it to be a decent life. You can be a full time reservist, with pay the same as any other and not have to go on a tour. Granted you get paid a lot more and advancements for promotions will come quicker if you volunteer to go. Regular Force do not really have a choice where Reservists do have the choice. I have had two close friends go to A-Stan and they will be coming back at the end of August. It's paid training, paid education if you choose ($2000 every year for four years). If you agree to work for them for X amount of time, they pay it in full.

Now lets clear up some bullshit about signing your rights away and other rumours popping up. You can't run for public officer or join a police force while in the CF. Thats about it. While in the field, its obvious that you cannot do what you want as thats a risk of the lives of you and everybody around you. As for the current conflict in Afghanistan, to fix that problem we are going to be there a long time, we along with other countries are essentially re-creating one and bringing out of a fuedal system of thinking, its not easy and will take time. Now with a current death toll of 85 soldiers and one diplomat, its unfortunate. However, we are not in a situation like in Iraq which US deaths are at ~33,000.

The main thing is this: Go and see your local reserve unit and ask to join. Do you Basic Military Qualification and Soldier Qualification courses and see how you like it. It's paid training and you can leave afterwords or anytime during the BMQ if done through a reserve unit.

I do not normally view these message boards so if there are any other questions or things people would like to debate: editor321 AT gmail DOT com