The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 1

[Pigeon_Grenade]

Bobs April Fools is Next Week, and thats when he manages to tell the More interesting half of how Destiny can work Somehow through star wars

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Actually, this Big Picture made me think about something.

What's considered 'coincidence' in story telling? Obviously, lots of things are set up beforehand (like Chekov's Gun) to be executed later on in the story. Like was it coincidence that Syndrome in the Incredibles turned out to be a spurred Incrediboy from earlier in the movie?

At what point is coincidence too flimsy but other times acceptable?

Incrediboy was not an example of Co-incidence. There was a direct reason why he turned to evil, namely his rejection AS Incrediboy. Let's Use Spider-Man since that's on teh board today: Norman Osbourne is the Green Goblin. His Son is Spider-Man's best friend. That is Co-incidence. Harry Osbourne becomes Hob-goblin because he mistakenly thinks Spider-Man killed his Father. This is NOT co-incidence.

 

[person427]

Aww, nothing for April Fools day? Oh well, good episode anyway, interested to see where next week's goes.

 

[DrOswald]

Do we actually have confirmation that the turtles were created on purpose? Everyone seems to be jumping to that conclusion, but that is not how I read that one at all. It seemed to me that SHREDDER was the one created on purpose in an effort to create some sort of super soldier, which means the turtles would have been created on accident.

 

[HemalJB]

So all the popular franchises you hate and wouldn't shut up about hating (to the point that it's become an overly long running gag) all have this much maligned "destiny" as a plot element while that one franchise you refuse to find any fault in and fanboy about doesn't have it?
Hmmn, you actually make a very good point here.
My problem with Destiny is that a lot of young adult literature and unnecessary sequels(Oz, Alice, Secret of NIMH2) use it as such an irritating shorthand for plot that nowadays the words "Chosen One" make my eyes glaze and mind wander. Nowadays I prefer the much cliche revenge plot over destiny At least revenge is a stronger and more relatable motivation.

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

Uh, Bob? One tiny mistake. It's not TCRI...it's TGRI, short for Techno-Global Research Institute, the company that manufactured the mutagen and was featured in the second of the original TMNT live action movies.

Sorry to pick nits, but I figured I'd better point that out.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Do we actually have confirmation that the turtles were created on purpose? Everyone seems to be jumping to that conclusion, but that is not how I read that one at all. It seemed to me that SHREDDER was the one created on purpose in an effort to create some sort of super soldier, which means the turtles would have been created on accident.

No, none at all. I think that you probably have it correct about the Shredder being the subject of the narration. I think everybody uses MB's statement about them being Aliens as a reason to assume that the Turtles were made because it demonstrates MB's assumed desire to make them not-turtles. The Ol' correlation rather than actual connection jump. I'll admit I made it.

 

[RoonMian]

I would have guessed that the Harry Potter series does the destiny thing pretty well. There is a prophecy but it is kept ambiguous, it's even possible that Harry Potter shoved his butt into another guy's destiny inadvertantly while himself struggling a whole lot with it.

 

[DrOswald]

I would have guessed that the Harry Potter series does the destiny thing pretty well. There is a prophecy but it is kept ambiguous, it's even possible that Harry Potter shoved his butt into another guy's destiny inadvertantly while himself struggling a whole lot with it.

And the thing about harry potter is

Spoiler

that in the end the whole destiny angle turned out to be false. Harry Potter was only "destined" to fight Voldemort because Voldemort would not stop singling him out. Harry Potter was not destined to be Voldemort and defeat him, Voldemort hand crafted his own perfect enemy because of his own misguided belief in destiny. It could have been anyone had Voldemort singled that person out instead.

 

[RoonMian]

I would have guessed that the Harry Potter series does the destiny thing pretty well. There is a prophecy but it is kept ambiguous, it's even possible that Harry Potter shoved his butt into another guy's destiny inadvertantly while himself struggling a whole lot with it.

And the thing about harry potter is

Spoiler

that in the end the whole destiny angle turned out to be false. Harry Potter was only "destined" to fight Voldemort because Voldemort would not stop singling him out. Harry Potter was not destined to be Voldemort and defeat him, Voldemort hand crafted his own perfect enemy because of his own misguided belief in destiny. It could have been anyone had Voldemort singled that person out instead.

Yeah, that's even on top of it. I think that's subverting the whole destiny shtick pretty well.

Yeah, I figure it's about time for Kung Fu Hustle rewatch.

OT: I thought Osborn Corp was suppose to be the stand-in for the Stark Corp. Tony's Dad made Captain America's shield and helped creating the super-soldier serum which was based on the same science that created the Hulk. The serum explanation made sense. If some technology turned a human invincible, it makes sense that the military would study and try to apply it. Captain America's shield, on the other-hand, used destiny as a crutch.

Or not. Those events only happened after Captain America wasn't some random guy. The Amazing Spiderman and the Turtles were never random guys to begin with.

If I remember correctly Daddy Stark had the vibranium shield just laying around while trying to sell Cap on some silly high tech shields he cooked up. The shield was made by someone else (the guy who later invented adamantium) from a sample smuggled out of Africa.

 

[Ishal]

Eh... Destiny is... an iffy subject. I think it just depends on how it's implemented.

For a character who is outright stated to be the chosen one at the outset of a story, I can see how that would get a little tepid and boring. But personally, saying that a character has "X" for a destiny doesn't make for a dull or uninteresting story if what happens in the middle is interesting. For the most part, I like to enjoy stories and lore in video games as a passive experience. I'm not immediately put off by something if I'm entertained in the interim.

People are tired of destiny as a concept, but as for me, I'm tired of characters going "fuck my destiny." I suppose sticking a big middle finger to fate is interesting and satisfying on a psychological level for some, but to me it always seems like the protagonist is just being an angsty teen and is just insufferable to watch. I particularly adore what usually happens in Greek plays when characters try and go against their destiny and have it blow up in their face. That big middle finger of "I'm not just a pawn or plaything of fate." is just as tepid and boring as a stock chosen one, imo.

Then there is what I call the "retrospective destiny." There probably is a trope for it, so correct me if there is one. It's when a character fulfills an arc, or finished a story, and another character states that it was their destiny to do so. This might be the first time it's outright stated to the reader/watcher. I'm generally ok with this. There is some wiggle room on whether it was destiny or not. The protagonist could have done completely different things and still be told it was their destiny to do it. The main character of MLP recently ascended to princesshood and changed her race in the process. The basic premise was that she moved away from her studies in the big city and in the process made friends. The power of her friendship allowed her to master magic and qualify her ascension. Her mentor then states it was her destiny. Lots of people were miffed by that as they felt it took away from her actions. I can't agree. When I look at her journey I still see all the wonderful things she's done, and the end result is that she became a princess by her own hard work and volition. I'm pretty sure she's the only princess to do that instead of be born, or marry into it. So even if it was her destiny, it's still a more interesting one than just about everything else.

 

[Rect Pola]

I'm still hoping Bay-Shredder's (don't really have a problem with him being white, or anything as long as he's The Goddamn Shredder. They've made him a freaking alien in one version and the universe didn't collapse. As long as he's a badass who can whoop the turtles if they don't bring their A-game on a good day, he's fine) gobbidy gook about destiny was him just talking up how full of himself he is. There isn't enough to say was deliberate, or an accident, or a staged accident so they can capitalize on it later.

I really do get it, both the D-card as a lazy way out of character building, and cudgeling it into characters it shouldn't be applied to is a disservice to the material.

 

[daibakuha]

I can see where MovieBob is going with the SW prequels and their destiny thing. I always enjoyed that the jedi knew from the beginning that Anakin was "the chosen one" to bring balance to the force and it was a mayor theme of the series, but they misread the message. Instead of bringing balance by making peace between the two sides of the force, he brought balance by destroying the hegemony the light side had on the universe, pummeling the jedis to the point they have their numbers reduced to match the number of siths.

This is something people get wrong all the time, so I don't fault you for making the same mistake. Bringin balance to the Force does not mean a balance between light side and dark side. The Dark Side imbalances the force simply by existing, so in order to balance it out you have to eliminate the sith.

So Anakin does bring balance to the force, when he kills Palpatine in Return of the Jedi and then subsequently dies. The Dark side ceases to have any practitioners left and the force is in balance.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, of course the TMNT reboot is employing hack "because destiny/because script" logic.
It's being made by talentless hacks.

Michael Bay was handed the project, which he has in turn handed off to D-list studio flunkies under his banner (presumably because he's busy doing yet more crap he doesn't like, but has a stronger obligation to make successful).

I mean, the top-billed "actress" (torturing the definition of the word) is MEGAN FOX.
The incompetent model he PREVIOUSLY HAD FIRED for sassing back to him. Her being cast in the starring role (billed above anyone else; including the turtles) is either the result of some sort of settlement, or Michael Bay gives absolutely no fucks.

At best, it's going to inspire some fun schadenfreude critical rants on the net.
At worst, it's going to be dull as shit.

 

[JSW]

Uh, Bob? One tiny mistake. It's not TCRI...it's TGRI, short for Techno-Global Research Institute, the company that manufactured the mutagen and was featured in the second of the original TMNT live action movies.

Sorry to pick nits, but I figured I'd better point that out.

It was TGRI in the second movie, but it's TCRI (the Techno-Cosmic Research Institute) in every other incarnation of the TMNT franchise in which it appears, dating back to the original Mirage comics where it was the name of the front company the alien Utroms (the inspiration for Krang) set up in order to conceal their activities on Earth.

 

[The Great JT]

I just liked Kung Fu Hustle because it had interesting fight scenes, fun characters, a pretty cool story, the Ax Gang and The Beast. But yeah, I noticed that stuff in there.

Also, I am curious how the Star Wars prequels almost got destiny right.

 

[Grimh]

Pfft I don't get what your problem is Bob. Destiny is destiny after all.

I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with the prequels and their handling of destiny what with the- Captcha: "spoilers"

B- but I just...

......

Fine... We'll have to wait for the next episode I guess.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Okay, hold it right there Bob. The codex mcguffin in MoS wasn't used to make Superman a chosen one, but to give Zod an actually sensible reason to go after him. That's how I saw it anyway. And it's not like Superman wasn't a Jesus figure already.

 

[J Tyran]

Whatever their other faults of the new Star Trek movies might be the cramming destiny into the plot isn't one of them, it isn't about prophecy or what will be and is more along the lines of what "should have been". Before Nero broke the timeline Kirk went through his life and career and the crew of the Enterprise all came together organically, Kirk only became Captain after Captain Pike was crippled.

But Neros actions shattered the timeline and changed the course of events, from old Spocks perspective he saw how the past was and now sees young Spocks future developing differently but with some correlation to past events. He isn't a supernatural wizard or prophet, he just sees how things should have been.

Anyway it could make a great plot for a future film if they can sort the writing out, have old Spock give Kirk and young Spock a bunch of advice about something trying to help them but because of the differences in the time line it was the absolute worst thing they could have done.

See, you're thinking of possibilities, but so far all I've seen the movie do is, "Hmmm, we need to develop a sense of camaraderie between to two people who loathe each other? Nah, just make Old Spock tell Nu-Spock that they're supposed to be best friends. Need to develop a sense of dread about a villain new to this ST09 canon? Nah, just make Old Spock tell them how dangerous Khan is." That's literally what he has become - a wizard who creates a predestined path for them. Instead of Spock and Kirk evaluating the nature Khan by themselves, Old Spock basically gives them directions on how they should feel.

That's not very good writing.

Except that for Spock to be a mysterious wizard he would have to be a mysterious wizard, all he has done is travelled back in time to see the timeline changed. Nero and Spock travelled back in time and shattered the timeline, its as simple as that and nothing that Star Trek hasn't done dozens of times and its fairly mundane in that universe. The only difference this time is that old Spock has decided to go along with the changes instead of trying to revert them, probably because that would invert the tachyonic polarity field that would lead to the collapse of the space-time toroid... or something.

Unimaginative and lacking originality? Sure but it doesn't put Kirk or young Spock into the same category as "chosen ones" or anything, old Spock being as hands off about the changed timeline shows that even more as he isnt really trying to shape anything this time.