The Big Picture: Gender Games

[ChristopherT]

The problem I have when this is ever brought up is with Mai and Morrigan being brought into the issue, and in this video itself Nathan Drake being brought in as well, because in each of those characters there's a reason (Morrigan is a succubus), and the characters video game line up needs to be considered.

Morrigan and Felicia are both apart of the Darkstalkers games, along side them on the female side of the roster are Q-Bee, Lilith, BB Hood, and Hsien-Ko. Q-Bee seems middle of the road, poses a bit on the "innocent" side and clothing is a little "look here", but possibly balances out. Hsien-Ko while having a breast window, the first thing I notice when I see a pose of hers is big claws. BB Hood on looks alone is innocent, red cloak covering her from head to knee, nothing sexual. Which brings us to Lilith, which is basically just a much younger version Morrigan, which is a little weird. But looking at the whole line up the women lean a little to the provocative side, but barely.

Mai, while all about TnA has been in a long running fighting franchise with a diversity of characters. And while the female cast is not as diverse as the male (the point, I know) we still have characters that are covered, Whip, Kula, King, Elizabeth, until recently Leona was wearing bulky military fatigues. Look at Elizabeth's poses, she is threatening and I cannot see any particular focus on her body, it's the hardened eyes. I think King of Fighters is a series that has been decently balanced with its characters looks and attitudes. While some characters have been sexual (Mai, Vice, Leona, Mature) even in the latest installment where the female roster is a bit lower than usually there's still the other female fighters which are either innocent (Yuri, Kula) or badass (Elizabeth and King), the women are split down the middle.

On the flip side of KOF we have the men, like Ash, who looks very feminine poses sexually, flips his hair. There's Benimaru who wears a tube top and tight tight pants. While it is another series of games where the men get to be over weight and the women not it at least making efforts. At the very least if Mai is just going to be kept being brought up a would like to see Benimaru mentioned every time she is, fairs fair.

Nathan Drake...the problem I have with Drake being used as an example of a male character getting different treatment than female characters is because look at his games and heroines right beside him, Elena, Chloe, and in 3 our lady villain, they're all fair, they're not the problem, I think one of the biggest problems is perspective. saying Drake gets better treatment than Ivy, there's a point, sure, but why not Elena get's better treatment, because it doesn't fit the argument as well?

There's IS a problem with women portrayal in games, comics, ect. But not a sexual character is all well and fine if it's only a character and not a medium right? Then why bring up characters such as Felicia, Mai, when they are part of larger character rosters which make an attempt to balance out. Or in the case of Morrigan have a reason to be as they are, she's a succubus, her being is sex and death, that shouldn't be a problem. Benimaru is out there. Perspective is needed.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I don't think anyone has pinned the cause of Nathan Drake being a smart-ass pretty boy as a shameless sex appeal used to entice female gamers (even though that probably did occur to some extent.)

May I introduce you to the "Tennant as Who" fandom?

Men don't care about depth when they're blowing shit-up or dislocating jawbones.

Yes they do. How do you think this forum gets so many responses from things like HALO, Modern Warfare, WoW, Star Wars, Firefly etc.

If anything, men care MORE about this sort of thing.

Compare/Contrast: Women arguing about Ivy : Men arguing about "NooooooooOoooooooOO!"

I'm certain it's the men who are the more passionate about detail. (Or just pedantics/buffs/nerds/whiners - take your pick)

 

[Ragsnstitches]

God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yeah I know it's nitpicking but it's a pet peeve major psychotic fucking hatred of mine.

Well, the old phrase actually means something like this:

If a generalisation says that women are exploited in the media, but then we have Sigourney Weaver who is an exception, does she disprove that generalisation that women are exploited? No, she is an exception that contrasts the problem, making it more obvious...

Weaver is an exception that proves the rule.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.

Nice to see we have an objective view on things here. *sigh* Shall we just lock this thread now before it gets to personal insults?

 

[Monsterfurby]

Huh. Once again, this issue being an important debate must be an American thing. I don't know a single instance of a debate like the one described here occurring, no instance of anyone criticising games for being sexist and then being met with that kind of response. It's just a non-issue in the environment I live in. Sorry Bob, I'm afraid this one went past me...

Edit: Then again, I don't think "gaming" is a lifestyle, so having "the gamers" as a category just seems irritatingly wrong to me.

 

[obliterate]

Can we please start discussing how the World is going to hell?

 

[remnant_phoenix]

So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

Here's a thrown-together example...

Leliana from Dragon Age Origins. Here's two shots of her with very similar character models.

In this one, the emphasis is on the face, and this face says, "I'm confident, and you're about to die."



In this one, the emphasis is on the body, and this body says, "I'm medieval warrior-chick eye candy." She may not be showing a lot of skin, but notice her exposed upper thigh, the thigh-high boots, and the way she's got one knee pulled slightly over in that coy, flirtatious way.

[img src="http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/3969_644044.jpg"]

The former is a screen shot of a Leliana that only appears in in a couple of seconds in a cinematic.

The latter was the image chosen for cover art.

The latter is how women are much more often portrayed in gaming.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

Here's a thrown-together example...

Leliana from Dragon Age Origins. Here's two shots of her with the same character model.

This one says, "I'm confident, and you're about to die."



This one says, "I'm medieval warrior-chick eye candy."

[img src="http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/3969_644044.jpg"]

The former is a screen shot of a Leliana that only appears in in a couple of seconds in a cinematic.

The latter was the image chosen for cover art.

The latter is how women are much more often portrayed in gaming.[/quote]

That's actually a pretty good on the fly example. Good job.

 

[4173]

Therumancer: "No Bob, there is not an issue."

Um, yes, there is. And people denying that there is an issue here is one of the key parts of this issue.

Let's draw a generalization, using the recent controversy over comic books. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is too close to a rule to be healthy. If you meet Batman in a dark alley, his costume says "I am a dangerous vigilante, and if you are a criminal you're about to wake up broken and bleeding in a hospital bed - fear me." If you meet Starfire in a dark alley, her costume says "I am an easy lay, let's go back to my place - f*** me."

Far too much of the way women are presented has to do with presenting them as a sexual fantasy, as opposed to actual characters. Now, the argument is made that men are idealized or sexualized too. But, you know what? THAT ISN'T AN EXCUSE. Male characters may get silly costumes, but they're functional more often than not. Male characters may look like walls of muscle, but it makes sense if you're some warrior used to almost superhuman feats of strength. And, more to the point, male characters are more than the sum of a 13-year old's sexual fantasy.

If the rule was female characters who were wearing clothes that made sense for what they were doing - as opposed to for a stripping pole - then perhaps you would have a point. But that's not the rule. The rule is a level of objectification that is downright embarrassing. The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.

And, frankly, once this gets fixed, the medium will be a lot better for it, and it will be taken far more seriously.

It's funny you use Batman as an example, because the various Batgirls and Batwomen are usually more covered up than the Robins.

edit 1: Obviously things are different with comic books writ large.

edit 2: Huh, that second Dragon Age pic doesn't seem too poorly posed.

 

[Hungry Donner]

There are a lot of people nitpicking MovieBob's examples. Perhaps some of them aren't the best choices out there, but the fact that game developers go for inherently sexy character concepts is part of the problem, and the fact that there are so many characters developed to mock this trend just depicts how popular it is.

There are a lot of games out there that involve seductress demons as important characters, far fewer have withered hags despite both being common in world mythology. But regardless of underlying form it would be nice if female characters, even ones with overtly sexy design, were at least created and displayed with greater character depth.

I blame Tomb Raider almost entirely for this conflict. Yeah, the problem existed before that in games like Street Fighter and others, but I think as a whole the issue can be traced to the success of the character who had ridiculous proportions that were created as a joke by the developers.

Lara Croft certainly brought a lot of attention to the matter, and no doubt inspired quite a few games to have overly-sexualized female characters, but I think the situation today would have been largely the same with or without Tomb Raider.

Whoops, nevermind. It looks like ndepren caused this issue. Who woulda thunk it?

Damn ndepren!

 

[Elijah Newton]

One of the thing that surprised me was how good of a job Space Marine did of presenting a female officer in it's storyline (And it's not just me: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly)... of all games, a shallow futuristic military male-ego boost porn game

Great link - thanks! I've passed the article around to a couple folks, and it's gotten us interested in the game again.

 

[hermes]

I think a lot of people should read this article: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/ before jumping to defend games. The link is from the main page of this video and, while a little long, its very good at conveying what is wrong with popular media (in this case: videogames; in the case of the article: comics) depiction of women vs depiction of men.

Huh, very intriguing. This is similar to what Moviebob talked about in one of his Overthinker episodes about depictions of men vs depictions of women in, well, ALL MEDIUMS. Just think about all the men who can have outright ugly as a positive trait (leaving out just ordinary or neutral men), but name me ONE woman who isn't depicted as a stunner (though, granted, I also have a hard time thinking of women designed/created by women who aren't also depicted as attractive)

For once, every medium that has to deal with real people usually include examples of non attractive men and women.

Books don't usually spend a lot of time in describing how hot the main character is so that the reader can fill up the blanks. Movies starred by Dustin Hoffman or Kathy Bates (even in their youth) were never advertised on the attractiveness of their actors. Of course, that was not always the case. 50s Hollywood wouldn't cast anyone for a main role that wasn't gorgeous, even when the character were known as ordinary, or, in most recent examples, they used Gerard Butler to play the "hideous" phantom of the opera.

However, mediums like videogames, comics and cartoons are worst on that sense because they don't cast characters, they design characters. Because of that, they have a lot more freedom to make characters more varied as they are not restricted by the appearance of talented actors. Which, in turn, makes it extra sad that they restrict themselves by designing female characters with impossible measures wearing impossible outfits in impossibles poses, for extra slutiness no matter the context.

 

[BabyFaceJer]

Great episode, Bob. Hadn't really thought about how almost every female character in gaming is posing the exact same way, while male characters each show something unique and character-defining whenever they appear in screenshots. I think a big problem that gaming (and pretty much any form of media) has with portraying female characters is that it's become a given that women are one-dimensional. This pretty much stems from the male dominated view-point that men are complex and intelligent while women are creatures that only care about diamond rings, clothes, and marriage. It's gotten so bad that even games and shows that are aimed exclusively at women are automatically labeled as one-dimensional and stupid out of hand (most of them are because the creators of said media didn't put any effort into their product, but still...). The only female character I can think of off the top of my head who doesn't fall into this trap but is still definitely feminine would be Jade from Beyond Good and Evil.

P.S.

Animation= My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic? Cute. Why do you continue to tease us bronies, Bob!?

 

[Epona]

So in this area they will ***** and complain until men lose interest in gaming the way boys and men have lost interest in everything else feminists have destroyed.

Give an example. I find it really hard to believe gamers will stop gaming because of feminist complainers when they dismiss feminists anyway. Hell people complain about gaming have too many sequels and whatnot. Gamers agree and they still game anyway.

What have feminists destroyed anyway? They and Christian conservatives tried to destroy porn once and they failed miserably (to get an idea of what a miserable failure it was, read this http://www.cracked.com/article_17300_6-ways-that-porn-runs-world.html ).

Now both groups are going after games (for different reasons I know) and they are still failing miserably. A significant number of games are still incredibly violent and/or have fan service characters.

I don't want to get too far into this for it will get me banned but I will provide an example:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/06/women-dominate-higher-education-at.html

Don't like that link, Google the topic and get the information from any source you like.

I think there are two reasons for this,


- Title IX programs have benefited mostly women even beyond the point of equality

- feminists have bitched until the school systems (especially colleges) are completely geared toward teaching girls who learn differently than boys. Boys have little motivation to go to class at all when the teaching methods bore them. The same can happen to games if developers go out of their way to "grease the squeaky wheel" to meet the ever-changing demands of feminists.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

edit 2: Huh, that second Dragon Age pic doesn't seem too poorly posed.

It's not nearly as bad as some, but take note of the exposed upper thigh, the thigh-high boots, and the way she has one knee pulled over slightly in that coy flirtatious way.

The first picture represents Leliana's confidence and combat skill.

The second picture is nowhere near as bad as Dead or Alive, true. But when you look it, you see that everything else that this picture could say about her character is down-played by the focus on Leliana being attractive/sexy, to the exclusion of anything else you could draw about her character. And that's exactly what Bob is talking about.

 

[mythil]

Good comment by Bob. I agree with one thing, the annoying thing about games is that women are depicted in only ONE way (99.9% of the time). I would also say it's true for men, for example if I want a character who's a bit skinny and tends to look a bit more "normal" I tend to go with a female body because all the men have muscles you would need a lifetime subscription to a protien powder to achieve.

That being said, I know women who like some characters who just look sexy but the problem is, as stated above, is that's the only choice for women. Some games, especally fantasy games are getting better with how women look especally when they treat armour propperly and not just as two steel postage stamps and a thong.

The upshot is, some women actually like to play a character who looks sexy and is just that however we want choice. Maybe I want to play a man who doesn't have incredable biceps or a woman that doesn't have a double D bra size. We need more variety in body type AND personality. Not just tuff action girl A and rugged action man B

 

[Woodsey]

So it's not about the skimpy outfits per se, but how they are posed in said outfits....

Perhaps I have too much testosterone, but could someone provide an example of the difference?

The character's pose communicates more about them than what they're wearing does (although the outfit can still be important).

Take the new Tomb Raider designs that have been put out: whilst she's still wearing a vest-top and has some great cleavage, her facial expressions and poses are what you're more drawn too. The tits aren't the centre of attention.

Compare that to the Underworld box art where they've literally cut her head out of the picture to maximise her tits and short-shorts.

OT: Considering the majority of opinions that are put out on the majority of relationship threads on this website, waiting for gamers to stop acting like women are evil is going to take a while.

I dont think Tomb Raider is a good example for this argument...if anything, Tomb Raider is a character who is fan service and they STILL give her quite amount of depth(lately). Thru the last 3 games, she has been in outfits n poses and ridiculous proportions, but also dont forget the growing character arc from Anniversary to Underworld, where Laras obsession for her mothers accident, who she blames herself at first for happening, as well as maturing into a person who used to value human life, but by the end of Underworld, is willing to go to any means to get revenge, reach her mother, and kill anything and anyone who gets in her path. If you analize her character, it is LOADS of layers into the human psyche of corrupting a innocent mind over time with pressure and horrible events.
The problem is the game is a bit poor on conveying decent story, but the fleshing out is there.

So thats lara. hot, posey, fan service, and yet fleshed out and complex.

We're not talking about the actual character though, but how the pose doesn't particularly indicate that.

I'd agree that before this reboot, they were better with her, but this is still a good example of how the clothes and bra-size have become far less important to what you can infer of the character.