The Big Picture: In Defense of "Booth Babes" (sort of)

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Rad Party God

Party like it's 2010!
Feb 23, 2010
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*sigh* Bob, I respect you a lot, seriously, you look like a nice guy to chat with and I highly respect all your mighty knowdelage on all things geek and retro and I do enjoy your movie reviews, but... no... just... I don't agree with you sometimes.

Seriously, I was tempted to simply ignore your video just by reading the title alone and I almost stopped watching it as soon as you donned your white knight helmet, but after finishing watching it... I wish I did.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
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Modelling is a worthless and bankrupt profession, whether it is in gaming or any other industry. Why legitimise it just because it involves gaming? Why not condemn it across all of the industries it is involved with?
 

generals3

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Belated said:
I cannot believe what I am reading, guys. Come on, Moviebob made some pretty compelling points here. Some of you are actually arguing with the notion that we should treat these women as people. Yes, we should treat them as people. Why? Because they are. And for all the reasons you might dehumanize somebody, "She looks pretty!" is nowhere near a good enough one.

Good work Moviebob. Ignore the haters, you're in the right here.
Here's the thing. When people complain about "booth babes" (at least as far as i know) they complain about the concept. They don't hate said women or think they aren't people, they complain about how they are used to sucker them in which makes some people think "How stupid do you think i am? I'm not just all about tits". Now being into marketing I myself have nothing against the use of pretty ladies to attract consumers but trying to assume that many who have something against it are misogynistic or sexist is quite silly (like moviebob implied). I'm fairly certain they'd also object if those women were replaced by shirtless muscled dudes.
 

K.ur

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Bob, are you already working on schlocktober?

Note to the debate.
The description of modeling, being a profession about looking good while being approachable for long duration of time, sounds like the opposite of a nerd or geek.
I don't suggest envy on beauty but social skill and the, mental and physical, stamina for daylong events. Though most in the community don't check every point on the list, socially inept is one of the more often associated traits of our hobby and for some passion. I worked in a big Hardware-store for a year and hopped at the first chance to work in a workshop again.
 

daibakuha

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uanime5 said:
Actually she got death threats because her writing was so bad that she ruined several games and made it clear that she hated video games that were interactive in any way. You can't keep screwing games up while having an anti-game attitude without expecting repercussions from gamers.
Hepler was only involved in the writing of 2 games. Dragon Age 1 and 2 (some parts of 3 as well from what i hear). Dragon Age 2's problems were in repetitive environments and wave based combat sections. Neither of which is her fault because she's not in charge of any other part of the game other than some writing. She's not even the head writer for the games she's involved with.

Lastly, she doesn't have any "anti-game attitude". She never stated she hated interactivity or anything of the sort. She simply stated that she dislikes the combat sections of some games. That she prefers story to gameplay. This isn't some evil conception that ruins games, it's an attitude that a lot of gamers have as well.

And even if she was the worst writer in the history of video games, that still doesn't justify death threats, in any way. The fact that you think this is somehow ok, says more about as an individual than anything else.
 

JimB

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Wolfgang94 said:
I know this is tangential, but did anyone else disagree with Bob's remark about the game industry wanting to be viewed as mature but not doing any "growing up?"
I'm sure someone out there disagrees, but I don't. The gaming industry strikes me as being one big Miley Cyrus, thinking that singing songs about doing drugs and dancing all night because abdication of responsibility hooray! is what it means to be grown up. Or, if that simile is unclear, I think the video games industry glories in immature spectacle but thinks that since the spectacle is inappropriate for prepubescent children, it must therefore be mature. It's not. It's just a slightly older version of immaturity.

Belated said:
I cannot believe what I am reading, guys. Come on, MovieBob made some pretty compelling points here. Some of you are actually arguing with the notion that we should treat these women as people. Yes, we should treat them as people. Why? Because they are. And for all the reasons you might dehumanize somebody, "She looks pretty!" is nowhere near a good enough one.

Good work MovieBob. Ignore the haters, you're in the right here.
You are the best person.

That probably sounded ironic, but seriously. You are the best person.

uanime5 said:
Actually she got death threats because her writing was so bad that she ruined several games and made it clear that she hated video games that were interactive in any way. You can't keep screwing games up while having an anti-game attitude without expecting repercussions from gamers.
Oh, fuck every inch of that. The idea that disagreeing with people about make-believe justifies threats to end the life of not only the person disagreeing with her but also the lives of her children is beyond entitled; it's straight up evil.
 

MegatronScythe

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I will admit that I've never personally attended a gaming or anime expo/convention. I have had a number of friends attend them though (official shirts stating "where's the soap" to joke about the stench is rather unflattering!). I'm unsure if this makes me more casual than others, but I'm alright with it.

Working in a technical field I will state that it is common place to have female models present at conventions or expos dealing with computer components, audio-visual devices, printers, etc... Which is really paradoxical for myself since I attend these events to view, learn, and experience new products that are forthcoming. So when I ask questions about the product to the model since there's one sales person and 3 models I typically get queued up in line to speak with the sales person. Which half the interested clients in line end up leaving due to time constraints.

I realize it's not fiscally effective to be sending two sales people and an engineer to every technology expo/convention, but I would much rather have someone who knows the product. Plus due to my recent experiences it also is becoming apparent that the vendors with the most models are publicizing themselves rather than focusing on their product.

On the topic of fake geek girls and women not belonging in the gaming community I personally find that unacceptable and inappropriate. Fairly certain I've never met a fake geek girl and as for women not belonging since no one can make a competent factual reason that they shouldn't, it appears as if others are just fearful.This gives me the impression that individuals don't have all the correct information at their disposal and instead of researching the facts (or simply asking questions) on their own so that they may make an informed decision, they rely on well crafted opinions to infer as facts.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Merklyn236 said:
MovieBob, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about everyone rushing in to address the symptoms of the problem (in this case, latent misogyny present is the gaming community) instead of actually trying to FIX the real problem. Of course, that's because the symptoms can easily be fixed by rules ("We're going to ban 'booth babes' from the convention, because we want to be gender inclusive" instead of "Um, people, maybe we should do a better job of being an inclusive gaming society here. You think? Maybe? Hello?"
Banning "booth babes" is an effective means to start fixing the problems within the community. If gamers going to conventions don't expect to see women presented as eye-candy, then that helps improve the community.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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I don't like the idea of booth babes (yeah, I know), I also don't like lollipop chainsaw, bayonetta or dragons crown either.

I just think we need to take away some sexy from games.

I've heard all the arguments before, "it's not sexist 'cos they aren't humiliating the women", "it's not sexist 'cos it's not trying to be sexist", "it's not sexist 'cos it's taking the piss out of game design" etc. It's a woman running round in a very revealing set of clothes, that might as well just be her underwear.

I'm not saying make all women wear burkas but a little modesty wouldn't ruin the game!
 

Reeve

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I liked this one Bob. Good stuff :) I've not liked the way "booth babes" are thought of as inferior, that's why I was annoyed when I heard that some conventions were banning them. It seems like a way of saying "We're too good to have their kind here.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Ugh, again with Bob waving his social justice willy for everyone to see.

This is such a non-issue I can't even believe the level of hand wringing present both in the shows on this site and in the commenters here. Booth Babes were never a problem, neither were the "Fake Geek Girls" bullshit, thats just journalist's click baiting for lack of a real story to report on. Besides, Borderlands 2's Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragon Keep managed to lampoon the concept of fake geeks far more effectively and decisively and any preachy article or smug, condescending video could ever do.

And while I'm at it, fuck this constant demonization of gamers. What? Fox News, Joe Lieberman, Anita Sarkeesian, and Jack Thompson weren't enough? I gotta get generalized and condemned by our own fucking journalists?

Here's an idea; maybe all the sane gamers left because they got tired of being CONSTANTLY TALKED DOWN TO.

Captcha; english muffin.

I could sure go fro an english muffin, with marmelade, maybe a spot of tea for maximum british.
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
Sep 4, 2010
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uanime5 said:
xaszatm said:
1st off, she was involved in two games and you are taking her interview horribly out of context. I know that others have called you up on these points but you don't seem to grasp the point so I won't bother.
In other words you lack a real argument but don't want to admit it. My comments about the article were accurate, you're were not.

2nd, someone named her children, what school they went to, talk about specific private events she attended, and then threatened to kill her children. This isn't a "meaningless death threat" that happens normally on the internet. That is a very scary and personal attack and from the context, it seemed likely that this person was in a position to seriously hurt this woman's family and life.
Given that you could get this information from anywhere on the planet (Facebook makes searching for people easy) it's unlikely that this person was in any sort of position to harm her children. You're clearly blowing this out of proportion because it fits with your "gamers are bad" delusions.

3rd, WHY IS SUCH ATTITUDES CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE? There is a fine line between "I don't think your idea has any merit and here are a list of reasons why" and "I will kill your children!" The first is fine, the second isn't. How hard is it to understand?
Well since Hepler kept ignoring all the valid points it's no surprise that people stopped making valid points and tried to get her attention in other ways. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
Alright, I'm now positive you are a troll. However, as I've been mistaken multiple times before so I will ignore your petty insults (in case you're wondering, I'm specifically referring to me lacking a real argument and blowing things out of proportion) and try to answer in the best way that I can.

1. I'm assuming you're talking about the interview. As such, let's get the specific question and response that got everyone's anger flared up.

What is your least favorite thing about working in the industry?

Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn?t have a good story, it?s very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly, I?m really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly ? I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don?t like tactics, I don?t like fighting, I don?t like keeping track of inventory, and I can?t read a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our competition.

And with a baby on the way in a few months, my minimal free time (which makes it impossible for me to finish a big RPG in less than six months already), will disappear entirely. If there was a fast-forward feature on games which would let me easily review the writing and stories and skip the features that I find more frustrating than fun, I?d find it much easier to keep abreast of what?s happening in the field.

If you could tell developers of games to make sure to put one thing in games to appeal to a broader audience which includes women, what would that one thing be?

A fast-forward button. Games almost always include a way to ?button through? dialogue without paying attention, because they understand that some players don?t enjoy listening to dialogue and they don?t want to stop their fun. Yet they persist in practically coming into your living room and forcing you to play through the combats even if you?re a player who only enjoys the dialogue. In a game with sufficient story to be interesting without the fighting, there is no reason on earth that you can?t have a little button at the corner of the screen that you can click to skip to the end of the fighting.

Companies have a lot of objections, such as how to calculate loot and experience points for a player who doesn?t actually play the combats, but these could be easily addressed by simply figuring out an average or minimum amount of experience for every fight and awarding that.

The biggest objection is usually that skipping the fight scenes would make the game so much shorter, but to me, that?s the biggest perk. If you?re a woman, especially a mother, with dinner to prepare, kids? homework to help with, and a lot of other demands on your time, you don?t need a game to be 100 hours long to hold your interest ? especially if those 100 hours are primarily doing things you don?t enjoy. A fast forward button would give all players ? not just women ? the same options that we have with books or DVDs ? to skim past the parts we don?t like and savor the ones we do. Over and over, women complain that they don?t like violence, or they don?t enjoy difficult and vertigo-inducing gameplay, yet this simple feature hasn?t been tried on any game I know of.

Granted, many games would have very little left if you removed the combat, but for a game like Deus Ex or Bioware?s RPGs, you could take out every shred of combat and still have an entertainment experience that rivals anything you?d see in the theater or on TV.

Now, from your post that I originally replied to, you said that the death threats happened "because her writing was so bad that she ruined several games and made it clear that she hated video games that were interactive in any way." I didn't argue the first point as that is subjective and, as I am not a fan of the Dragon Age games period, I can't comment on the quality of the writing. However, reading that interview, while she did indeed say that playing the game itself was her least favorite part of the industry, she also talked of an alternative which pretty much plays as a "reverse skip cutscene" mechanic. Because there are some people who would prefer doing the story over doing the gameplay. I would that this position is perfectly fine to have, but obviously, you believe that your opinion is more correct.

Now, on your second part, in the Jimquisition video, someone had posted the conversation that I just described. Unfortunately, it has been removed and I currently cannot find it. It was a twitter conversation that was what I had written about. I will try and find it because my word clearly holds no water to you, but if I don't find it, it's currently all I have.

Now for the third part, and the one that just confuses me with great sadness. To put it simply, yes. Yes, I do not understand your third point. When I read it, I am seeing you justify threatening to kill the children of a writer someone did not like. And how do you justify it? Because she didn't respond to criticism. I'm sorry? I thought artists had the right to do whatever they pleased as long as it doesn't directly affect someone else. People do have the right to criticize. They do have the right to complain about the lack of quality. The second someone threatens the person directly or indirectly, that right disappears. This is what goes through my head when I read that last sentence. I literally cannot comprehend the connection between writing poorly and death threats. I thought that Annie Wilkins was to be feared, not modeled as a hero. You can chock my inability to comprehend to stupidity but still...I'm literally a wreck right now because I cannot comprehend.
 

Jennacide

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The main part that bugs me is the impotent defense by some that tradeshow models "don't know what they are hawking." This is assumption at it's finest. I can name one person that is easily recognized by the community for her modelling appearance at E3 and PAX and is an avid gamer, Jessica Nigri. Now realize that there are other female gamers out there that are just as eye catching as Jessica, and stop assuming they don't play games. Hell, if most people on this forum met me at E3 or on the street, they would never guess what a horrible dork I am. The nerd subculture wants the old prejudice of nerd appearance to go away, but then continues to judge others by their looks when assuming if they are a member of said nerd culture.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Valderis said:
And another thing, why are you coming to the defense of women who get made fun of in general (at conventions)? You don't do this for guys. People are sometimes assholes to either other, guys seem to have to suck it up, but if your a women its Bob to the rescue. I say fuck 'em, let them deal with their own problems. Besides, how bad can it really be, if these places really are as hostile as people like you make them out to be then why would anyone go to them?
This is a good point: for all the talk of women's rights and "inclusivness", the moment women receive the same static men do, oh, suddenly it's a big deal!

In trying to get women to be treated as adults and just as capable of men, "feminists" seem reluctant to actually let that happen.

captcha: spangled banner

'Murica! Fuck Yeah!
 

Miroluck

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uanime5 said:
MB202 said:
I also like how this episode is a nice follow-up to Jim Sterling's Jimquisition episode about a woman who DARED to write for video games and who DARED to have an opinion about video game get death threats about her kids. I.E., it's another episode that shouldn't have to exist but because gaming culture is in a major rut at the moment, some things need to be spelled out.
Actually she got death threats because her writing was so bad that she ruined several games and made it clear that she hated video games that were interactive in any way. You can't keep screwing games up while having an anti-game attitude without expecting repercussions from gamers.
wat
What are we, 90's rap scene now?
Because after all the murder threats, the next step would be repeating Dre - Barnes incident.
 

carnex

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omega 616 said:
I don't like the idea of booth babes (yeah, I know), I also don't like lollipop chainsaw, bayonetta or dragons crown either.

I just think we need to take away some sexy from games.

I've heard all the arguments before, "it's not sexist 'cos they aren't humiliating the women", "it's not sexist 'cos it's not trying to be sexist", "it's not sexist 'cos it's taking the piss out of game design" etc. It's a woman running round in a very revealing set of clothes, that might as well just be her underwear.

I'm not saying make all women wear burkas but a little modesty wouldn't ruin the game!
While some dresses are ridiculous enough to breake immersion, WTF?

Literature: 50 shades of Grey. Mainstream megahit. Half of book are gratuitous and detailed descriptions of BDSM sessions between lover with wide age disparity.

Still Visual Arts: I can make painting (or sculpture or photo) of naked woman (or during sex act if creative enough), anatomically correct or sexually exaggerated (statue even with convenient and perfectly sized holes in anatomically correct places) and sell it on a street as "artwork" even if it is anything but.

Movies: Drive Angry. Gorry battle scene during which female stays on hero's penis.

Music: Smack my ***** up... there are far worse examples, but I can?t remember them

Games: Girl in somewhat inappropriate clothing slays tones of enemies?

Doesn't really sound the same level, does it? We'll outgrow it and understand that there are games with sex appeal and games that don't go for sex appeal. It took Hollywood 40 years to outgrow it's own "head up it's own arse" problem
 

Ashoten

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Ok Bob I love most of what you say but this brings up an old wound that keeps festering in the video game community so I gotta say something.

First consider that while many male gamers are complete misogynist jerks and need to be called out on it there is a reason that the "Geek Girl" thing continues to be an issue when it does not need to be. It starts back at how society normalizes people to react to certain situations.

For example one of the movies I know you have used clips of in the past Revenge of the Nerds. In these movies we are taught it is ok to be mean, nasty, explicitly lie to, and take sexual advantage of someone if they are a jerk and in a higher position of power.

Consider how bullies are shown in most cartoons as getting their just deserts by getting laughed at by the end of the episode(Danny Phantom springs to mind). Do you understand that in some ways we are conditioned to lash out at perceived social injustice? Particularly if you are considering yourself to be the underdog.

Now understand that many male gamers are going to remember that pretty and popular women where the most mean to them in high school. Now I understand that everyone was kind of an jerk in high school at some point and many of us grow out of it with time(though not enough). But old wounds still hurt even years after the fact. If you where a hard core gamer/nerd in high school chances are good you where also introverted and unattractive(or at least not concerned with appearances). Typically making you the target of scorn.

Whos insults or laughter was most likely to make you feel the worst and stay with you the longest? Yeah the popular attractive women who always dressed up the most. Of course not all of them are like this. In fact I am willing to wager it is a minority of women that are particularly mean in high school. But we are talking about what people remember in the years of awkward development from teen years into early adulthood.

Getting back now to my original point. Consider that you where a unattractive socially awkward man who finally got out of years of embarrassment and found a place for yourself in a gamer community. No one insults for liking games or D&D and you have worked hard to keep up with all the news, events, and skills required to be active in a gamer community. Then one day you turn around one day and a attractive women is talking smack about your favorite fighting game because it is typical male BS and men should feel bad for playing it(Maybe they should feel bad for playing it).

At that moment you don't consider the finer points of your argument all you do is have gut reaction. You are mad because all you see is an attractive women yet again picking you apart(because people become emotionally invested in their games)personally and being a bully. You remember(emotionally) that it is ok to be a jerk to bullies because that is a societal normal thing(according to your favorite shows and movies). SO you rattle off some misogynistic comments in a fit of righteous indignation.

Maybe after a day or 2 they cool down and start to realize that they where being silly and that yes maybe their favorite fighting game is a bit misogynistic. They start to make a personal resolve within to not do that again and everything is going well......O wait no. An internet personality comes on their popular show(not just you Bob there are lots of them) and waves a finger at all those men who left hurtful comments telling them how stupid and wrong they are.
Then women who are gamers on social media start being more vocal about all the games being all horrible because they where designed for men and are awful.

Now it is not one incident. Now it has become an Us vs. Them situation. Defensiveness sets in as assaults seem to be coming from multiple directions. Snarky youtube videos continue to show gamers as introverted basement dwellers that breath hard into their microphones. The phrase "Neckbeard" and "Autism" are thrown around as a default descriptor for any male gamer that isn't married or getting laid 12 times a week. Life starts to look a lot like high school all over again. With you at the bottom of the food chain as usual.

So what would you do? I mostly remain silent because I have move on from the petty politics of that world. Before embarking on a social crusade to put people in their place remember you are going to make as many enemies as friends. Just be your happy friendly self and maybe talk about how you think an aspect of the game industry can be improved without resorting to insulting the people who liked it the old way. Eventually people will come around if you give them a chance.

Just casually dismissing peoples hurt feelings and putting them into a general "Misogynist" category will only make them defensive and rally together and more obnoxious.

P.S. I will not respond to responses. I will delete all in my inbox before reading because I do not feel like being called a misogynist for trying to bring some sanity and understanding to a situation.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Sgt. Sykes said:
The Escapist is now officially annoying with this inclusiveness bullshit. Jim Sterling and Bob won't shut up about it. Seriously guys don't you have anything else to talk about? Okay, I get it! We need more women to play games, more inclusiveness, less trolling, less this or that, OKAY ALREADY NOW STOP SHOVING IT DOWN MY MOUTH.
Are you upset that you aren't being included, and have to watch things you don't agree with? You could always go to another website.