"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice." /thread
The Dark Souls PC version controversy.
- Thread starter Stavros Dimou
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All right then, apparently I need to spell it out, if you want a pie cooked, you don't hire a meat butcher to cook it and then give him shit when he says that the pie that he's going to make is crap because he doesn't know how to make pies (I'm still using the pie analogy, deal with it) From Software said that they are console game makers and that they have no experience with PC ports, I highly doubt that more resources and more times would have changed that, even if they did take more time and resources and did research, it still would have been an imperfect port, there still would have been glaring flaws, and people still would be complaining like this...uh pal, From Software DOESN'T get paid to do work with PCs, they get paid to do work with CONSOLES! Hence the whole "hiring a butcher to make a pie" analogy.Hammeroj said:
I'm sorry, but it's an analogy about how you wanted someone to make a product that wasn't up their field, they said that it was going to be crap, you insisted that you wanted it anyway, they made it on your insistence, out of good faith, sold it to you with extra content at a lower price that what we had to deal with, and now you're in an uproar. I'm pretty sure that the analogy is good.
I'm asking if how many people WOULD have whined if they had refused to port it after all of the petitions. Don't put words in my mouth
You seem emotionally unstable. I would recommend consulting a therapist. I'm not even joking, I really mean it, if a reasonable reply like that can inspire such anger something must be up.
Look, about the graphics, nobody has asked for high res textures or any extra doodads. Just proper scaling for the standard resolutions and no FPS lock - basic stuff, The game's art holds up great on its own, but without these little adjustments for PC, it's like having a nice painting in a crappy, dusty old frame. It doesn't do it justice, as simple as that.grey_space said:
And it's not just graphics, gameplay is affected too. Playing with M+KB is torture (prompts aren't changed from X360 ones, you need workarounds to bind certain keys, mouse acceleration is all over the place, targeting is fucked). Sure, you can always get a controller, but how do they expect to succeed on the PC market like that? Any gamer new to Dark Souls is likely to get up and return it as soon as he's prompted to press keys that don't exist on his keyboard, and he'd be perfectly justified.
Also, as you may know, multiplayer is one of the most innovative and compelling parts of the Souls games, and yet everyone from a country unsupported by GFWL is forced to play offline, just like that, for no real reason. I can't even access the Steam store page for the game.
Do all of the above seem like minor issues to you? Am I selfish for not taking in all this shit with a smile and praising From for the great job they've done?
I'll say it one more time: the fact that you have low standards due to your outdated, feature-stripped technology does not mean I am over-entitled or immature for demanding better.grey_space said:
If I went to a restaurant, ordered a steak, and received a brick of tofu, "Everyone else here likes the tofu, stop complaining" is not a valid response from the waiter when I mention that I didn't receive what I ordered. PCs are better for playing video games, without question, and it follows that we'll have higher standards. True HD, 60 FPS, crisp textures, NOT TO MENTION controls that actually work at all - these aren't crazy demands. All we're asking is that a PC port run and control like PC games have been running and controlling for five years now. Just because consoles have lagged behind to a ridiculous degree doesn't change the fact that this port is not up to even the most basic standards of PC gaming. You can be satisfied with whatever laggy, fuzzed-out experience you want, but the moment it comes to PC, the bar undeniably gets raised.
Consoles, with their slideshow framerates, blurry textures, poor controls, and low resolutions, are clearly the lowest common denominator; I'm not going to be made to feel bad for asking that a video game company in 2012 shoot at least for the middle of the range.
That's totally fine. Just don't complain when people who have taken the time and effort and money to put together a good PC want software that takes advantage of their hard work to even the most basic degree.erttheking said:
What? I swore a couple of times and turned on Caps lock and all of a sudden I'm emotional unstable? What? Please tell me that you're kidding. I'm freaking angry because this thread is driving me up the wall, mainly because I've had six different people replying to me telling me that I'm full of crap and because overall I'm getting a little tired of the Escapist being 90% dedicated to saying why a (Developer/Publisher/Game) is complete crap. That's all we ever do nowadays. X is crap, Y is stupid, Z is absurd. And I'm freaking TIRED of it, everyone here seems to tear apart everything that wasn't made by Valve...and when someone does make a thread criticizing their games, the replies are all "Well aren't you a special snowflake" or "no one cares" or stuff like that. It's a straw that broke a camel's back situation, pure and simple.FeloniousMonk said:
Well if it was a tofu shop and you were...oh forget it. I'm freaking tired of this thread, I'm getting nothing out of it except a massive headache. I'm just going around in circles not getting anywhere. From Software said that their port would be crap and they didn't try to hide it, that's why everyone getting all worked up is bugging me, because frankly they should have seen it coming. Besides, there's a mod online, just download that and *bang*, problem solved. Maybe the controls are bad, but I've heard from another thread that you can use an xbox 360 controller and it handle just fine. Just some advice. It's just I think that everyone is getting worked up over nothing and...Christ I'm tired. I'm going to get out of this thread before I say or do something stupid and get myself banned. Sorry if I came across as overly aggressive everyone. I just...Christ I'm tired.peruvianskys said:
Whoopee-doo... There are plenty of companies that don't port to PC, suffer some backlash, and yet manage to muddle on without openning a vein. Rockstar alone would be sobbing in the fetal position for eternity if PC gamer backlash was something most companies gave a shit about.grey_space said:
Fact is there'd have been a lot less backlash over no port than there's been over a sub-standard one... or perceived as being substandard if you want to take that stance.
I don't consider someone crapping out a bare-minimum, below standard port and expecting me to pony up US$69.95 for it (that's the steam price for Aussies) is acting in good faith. In fact, it's much, much closer to taking the piss.
Then maybe you should have read their interviews where they stated that this was a port, not a pc version with pc features. No, PC Gamers begged for Dark Souls, From told us that they couldn't develop for PC and it would be the same as the XBox version. Don't post petitions saying you don't care and just want to play the game, and then get up in arms after the money is spent.Draech said:
I'm not getting into the whole Console vs PC debate/thing quite frankly it bores the hole off me.
I'm fully willing to admit that PC's are the 'better' gaming machine when it comes to graphics.
That is not the point.
Some PC users petitioned for a port. They got a port. They were told that it was an exact port and what they were getting was what they were getting.
Should From sortware have a designated team with PC expertise?
I Don't know. Maybe.
However; If you were told what kind of game you were getting ahead of time and that it would not match your exacting standards (and I fully admit that the average PC gamer's standards would be more exacting in the areas for graphics, etc.), then don't buy the game.
Don't ask for it, be warned about it, get it, and then whine about it.
I'm fully willing to admit that PC's are the 'better' gaming machine when it comes to graphics.
That is not the point.
Some PC users petitioned for a port. They got a port. They were told that it was an exact port and what they were getting was what they were getting.
Should From sortware have a designated team with PC expertise?
I Don't know. Maybe.
However; If you were told what kind of game you were getting ahead of time and that it would not match your exacting standards (and I fully admit that the average PC gamer's standards would be more exacting in the areas for graphics, etc.), then don't buy the game.
Don't ask for it, be warned about it, get it, and then whine about it.
I don't care for the whole console vs PC (since I own both) either but it is clear to me you are missing the point. People petitioned to have them make a game on the PC, and with that comes bare minimum standards. Even the laziest companies that create the same game every year at least has some semblance of these minimum standards.grey_space said:
Also just because they "warned" that they might do a crap job doesn't excuse charging 2x over retail price on a crap job. If they really put such a minimal effort knowingly they should be charging 15 bucks or less (to reflect its quality).
I also never understood the ignorance of the "if you dont like it, dont buy it". We like the game, we are complaining about the crap functionality of the game that is causing problems. No one here is saying Dark Souls isn't a great game, they are saying that the developers are incompetant hacks that can't handle basic PC functionality. People are complaining because they want the best (or PC) experience they deserve for paying almost double the retail price right now (seriously its 21 bucks on amazon right now http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Souls-Playstation-3/dp/B004NRN5EO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345922567&sr=8-1&keywords=dark+souls).
Honestly it's not that hard of a concept to grasp.
It took you 2500+ posts to figure out what kind of community the Escapist is? If it's not made by Valve, it's shit (although even Valve can fuck up, just look at CS:GO. and look at the lack of "constructive criticism" around here.) If it's not Bethesda, it's shit. If it's EA it's a war crime. "Yay indie!"erttheking said:
You're looking at a community who will complain about the atrocity of being forced to enter an online pass to validate a copy of their game and how much of a hassle it is, but have absolutely no qualms downloading mods and fighting with them to get them to work properly.
Combine that with an subtle support for piracy just as a fuck you to big business in general because "fuck da police!", and here we are. Just take the responses as a grain of salt, nothing anyone says here is worth getting worked up over. Including myself.
There is something that people defending From Software don't understand.
From said that the port will be bad. But we didn't get a bad port. We got the worst port in recent history. There is a HUGE difference between bad and Dark souls(PC).
From said that the port will be bad. But we didn't get a bad port. We got the worst port in recent history. There is a HUGE difference between bad and Dark souls(PC).
I think far too many people are blaming From Software here when they should be looking at Namco. From is a very small team. They make niche games that are generally received very poorly, but are successful and worth it because of the reception of the intended audience (Chromehounds, Tenchu, King's Field, Enchanted Arms, Ninja Blade.)
They published the souls games themselves in Japan, as "budget" niche titles that had a specific audience just large enough to make the venture worth it. Turned out in BLEW UP in Japan, and the 89 meta score and 1 million plus sales were a complete fucking surprise to everyone. Sony turned an early build down as a first party title because they found it so niche that they couldn't imagine a worthy return.
Companies saw the explosion that From published themselves and wanted to see that return in the states and elsewhere. From did not have the know-how, money, translators, or anything like that to bring these games anywhere else in English/German/French/whatever, and had no intention of it. Atlus brought Demon's to the states, and to this day are keeping on and maintaining the NA server.
Namco is the company that approached From with taking Dark worldwide. Namco is the company that took the petition for a PC version. Namco saw the numbers of the petition, saw even more potential return from that market, tossed From a small sum and a ridiculously short time limit and told them personally to make it work for the PC. The publisher is in charge of QA, it would have been up to Namco to hire a different company to port it, but instead they asked From to personally do it themselves, something they never built their small office to do, never planned on doing, and only had extremely small amounts of experience doing.
With the budget and timeframe From was given, they were forced to take the path of least resistance. GFWL ensured that the netcode wouldn't have to be re-worked, the console 720 internal framebuffer ensured not having to test extensively the various configurations, settings, and bugs that would have arisen across the huge game. A modder made the framebuffer raise in a week, but there's a difference. He doesn't have a publisher to answer to. He only saw that it worked for the first 30 minutes of the game, and the first version got rid of all the soapstones and messages/prompts. He doesn't have to make any guarantees, or test that it works for every configuration throughout the entire game. The mod works horribly on ATI video cards. All of this tells me that they knew it was possible, but just didn't have the time/funding/resources to make it work right from beginning to end. They'd rather release a working 720 framebuffer than a problematic quickfix that alienates half of the consumers.
If this port pisses you off, and touching a 360/PS3 controller makes you break out in hives, and internal resolution lower than 1080p makes your eyeballs bleed, please don't speak ill of From Software about that. It's the publishers job to ensure that the product that THEY are releasing is up to snuff, and it's Namco that were satisfied with what the timeframe and budget produced and released that to the public.
It's Namco's job to do QA and playtest it with a keyboard. If you saw a tour of From's office, and seen their staff at work, you would really know that this is a small, humble office that just wants to make the games they love for the niche audiences that enjoy them, and are reviewed badly by the general public. This souls thing has blown up bigger than they could have imagined and they've worked and slaved super overtime to satisfy what Namco is asking for. Namco sold you this product, and they were okay with the state it was in. They were contacted for the petition, not From, so when it's not what you expected why attack From and undermine their reputation and credibility? If you have to attack someone over this, attack the people who took the petition and released this under the pretense that it would satisfy you. Thank you for your time.
They published the souls games themselves in Japan, as "budget" niche titles that had a specific audience just large enough to make the venture worth it. Turned out in BLEW UP in Japan, and the 89 meta score and 1 million plus sales were a complete fucking surprise to everyone. Sony turned an early build down as a first party title because they found it so niche that they couldn't imagine a worthy return.
Companies saw the explosion that From published themselves and wanted to see that return in the states and elsewhere. From did not have the know-how, money, translators, or anything like that to bring these games anywhere else in English/German/French/whatever, and had no intention of it. Atlus brought Demon's to the states, and to this day are keeping on and maintaining the NA server.
Namco is the company that approached From with taking Dark worldwide. Namco is the company that took the petition for a PC version. Namco saw the numbers of the petition, saw even more potential return from that market, tossed From a small sum and a ridiculously short time limit and told them personally to make it work for the PC. The publisher is in charge of QA, it would have been up to Namco to hire a different company to port it, but instead they asked From to personally do it themselves, something they never built their small office to do, never planned on doing, and only had extremely small amounts of experience doing.
With the budget and timeframe From was given, they were forced to take the path of least resistance. GFWL ensured that the netcode wouldn't have to be re-worked, the console 720 internal framebuffer ensured not having to test extensively the various configurations, settings, and bugs that would have arisen across the huge game. A modder made the framebuffer raise in a week, but there's a difference. He doesn't have a publisher to answer to. He only saw that it worked for the first 30 minutes of the game, and the first version got rid of all the soapstones and messages/prompts. He doesn't have to make any guarantees, or test that it works for every configuration throughout the entire game. The mod works horribly on ATI video cards. All of this tells me that they knew it was possible, but just didn't have the time/funding/resources to make it work right from beginning to end. They'd rather release a working 720 framebuffer than a problematic quickfix that alienates half of the consumers.
If this port pisses you off, and touching a 360/PS3 controller makes you break out in hives, and internal resolution lower than 1080p makes your eyeballs bleed, please don't speak ill of From Software about that. It's the publishers job to ensure that the product that THEY are releasing is up to snuff, and it's Namco that were satisfied with what the timeframe and budget produced and released that to the public.
It's Namco's job to do QA and playtest it with a keyboard. If you saw a tour of From's office, and seen their staff at work, you would really know that this is a small, humble office that just wants to make the games they love for the niche audiences that enjoy them, and are reviewed badly by the general public. This souls thing has blown up bigger than they could have imagined and they've worked and slaved super overtime to satisfy what Namco is asking for. Namco sold you this product, and they were okay with the state it was in. They were contacted for the petition, not From, so when it's not what you expected why attack From and undermine their reputation and credibility? If you have to attack someone over this, attack the people who took the petition and released this under the pretense that it would satisfy you. Thank you for your time.