The difference between PC and Console FPS games.

[TrevHead]

I like both PC and console games and imo PC games generally provide a richer gaming experience. The only problem with PC is that many games are console exclusive.

As other have said a M&K for some genres really is the best method over a pad. Just like a stearing wheel is better for racing games, the problem is that console games are designed with the wheel in mind but never the m&k.

This is a shame as a M&K FPS is very different from a control pad FPS.

Here is a video of Serious Sam 2 HD


And This is Painkiller


Notice how there are lots of baddies onscreen to shoot at. Where the player must destroy the baddies asap while constantly moving backwards and sidewards to dodge the baddies and to herd them into a group to take them out in one go. In many ways a good PC FPS is like the 2D twinstick shooter genre in the way the player must be always moving around the screen and been dynamic.

Geometry Wars 2 vid, notice how the player experly runs rings around the enemy. A good PC FPS plays just the same.


The problem with console / control pad gaming is that it cant match the mouse and keyboard for the speed and acuracy even with auto aim, So that to accomadate the slower controls developers have decreased the number of baddies onscreen at one time to just 2 or 3 so the player doesnt get overwhelmed.

The only time most modern FPS games put lots of baddies onscreen are on-rails shooting gallery sections where the player is manning a helicopter rail gun and can esily spray the area in front of him with bullets, and because control pad gamers dont move or look 360 degrees as much as M+K enemies tend to be usually infront of the player, this also has an effect on level design making it more linear in nature.

While more slower paced tactical shooters like modern warfare 2 do suit the control pad a little better, it still isnt as good as M+K imo. Plus the PC has real head tracking like Track IR

Track IR in Arma2 (fastforward to 4 mins to see how in plays in game)


So when PC gamers are talking about console dumbing down not all of us are been elitist jerks many of us actually have a real point to make. Now hopefully you guys on the console FPS side will understand some points in what PC gamers are driving at. The Duke Nuken Forever game is a perfect example of console dumbing down, sure it looks nice and is fun but it would of been so much better if designed with the PC / mouse and keyboard in mind

Anyone care to tell me how the hell I embed YT videos on this site? EDIT thx Glademaster

 

[Radeonx]

Yes, there is "dumbing down" to an extent, but its not nearly as much of one as you guys make it out to be. Normally this "dumbing down" is for miniscule things, and you'd probably just find some other excuse to throw these lesser beings under the bus for the sake of being elitist douchebags.
Every time there is a flaw in a game, someone feels the need to ***** about how consoles are destroying PC gaming, which is just a fucking stupid claim.

 

[ZeZZZZevy]

Hasn't the point that m&k > gamepad for fps's already been proven?
You're talking about simply a faster method of movement:
point and click is always faster than acceleration

this really doesn't matter anyway, as long as everyone is on the same playing field (unless you're at the absolute highest levels of play)

also: different control method =/= "dumbing down"
it's a different method of control that some people happen to prefer, like you happen to prefer pc games and m&k

 

[Mr. Omega]

(slight rant warning)

It's not that they don't have points (Give me TF2 over CoD any day of the week...), but they just about being such ASSHOLES about it. Some people happen to like console shooters. Good for them. I don't really like the FPS genre in general, but I do enjoy some of the games. And PC Gamers LOVE blaming all their problems on console gamers. And the concept of "different opinions" just seems to be absolutely ALIEN to them... no, the PC Gamer mentality is "OUR GAMES ARE BETTER, AND IF YOU DON'T STAND IN AWE OF OUR SUPERIORITY, YOU'RE AN IDIOT."

That being said, I don't care if it isn't as good, I prefer a gamepad. Then again, I'm not that much of an FPS guy, and play for fun...

On a side note about DNF: Your little theory is a blatant example of PC Elitism. You assume that it being made for a PC inherently means that it would have been a better game. You ever stop to think maybe Gearbox would have messed up either way? The REAL issues that game has would not have been any better with M&K in mind. But NOOOOOOO, it's all console gamer's fault! That's the ONLY possibility!

PC Gamers who use the term "dumbed down for consoles" and aren't talking about Dues Ex or Starcraft need to get over themselves and their mahcines...

 

[TrevHead]

Yes it is already proven but imo many Console FPS players dont quite understand just how big a difference using a pad can actually make to the design of many modern FPS games

EDIT @ Mr Omega: yes you do have a point elistism comes from both sides. Me I dont care what other gamers and just want to make sure that everybody is correctly informed so they can make their own choices as to what playstyle is best for them. All this fanboy crap gets in the way of the real issues and thats the games themselves.

 

[synobal]

Eh for me the difference was always turn speed. You just can't whip around in a 180 quite a fast with a controller.

 

[hyzaku]

I'd agree (with Radeonx) that consoles are not destroying PC gaming, but the console to PC ports are certainly not doing the PC any favors. I think most of the ill will is due to poor PC ports that somehow forget what system they are being played on. FPS games tend to get hit by quite often recently. Everything from lack of graphics options to auto aim features (which should not be on a PC FPS). Then you have instances where the game being designed on console and ported to PC actually affect graphics, such as Crysis 2 which has technically worse textures than the original Crysis.

Again, I disagree with the notion that consoles are destroying PC gaming. However, many people look at the various instances of console to PC ports making the PC version barely more than a console game on PC instead of actually making the PC version a proper PC game and put 2 and 2 together to get 5. You can't say that consoles have not had some negative effects on PC gaming, but most people would rather blow things out of proportion and blame consoles for everything wrong with any PC game.

 

[Inkidu]

I don't like the mouse and keyboard. They're bland, boring and purely utilitarian. I guess I grew up with too many old Nintendo games or something. I love controllers. I just have the long palms and mid-sized fingers for it I guess.

Plus keyboards don't rumble, and rumble scripting has gotten so good with modern gaming. It's surprising how much it can immerse you into a game.

Whem people say mouse and keyboard, I usually just use the mouse for my RTSs and Civ games.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Solution to the controller problem:

MAKE YOUR ANALOG STICKS WITH PARTS THAT COST MORE THAN $.02.

What's wrong with controllers isn't the fact that they're controllers, it's because they're SHIT.

 

[TrevHead]

(slight rant)

On a side note about DNF: Your little theory is a blatant example of PC Elitism. You assume that it being made for a PC inherently means that it would been a better game. You ever stop to think maybe Gearbox would have messed up either way? NOOOOOOO, it's all console gamers fault! That's the ONLY possibility!

Well it didnt take long before someone whips out the elitism card, mate thats just my opinion, (maybe I should of put imo in the sentence) and im not gonna go into why i think DNF is a badly designed FPS as its already been discussed in length recently.

Like hyzaku states, its wrong for PC gamers to blame everything on consoles thats just childish but the fact remains that modern FPS games are generally designed with the gamepad in mind, with online FPS games like TF2 the last bastion of the fast paced and dynamic style of the old school FPS.

For anyone who loves TF2 and Quake live I highly recommend you try out the Serious Sam and the Painkiller games, they have the same fast pacing as multiplayer FPS games, only its single player (although SS ep2 HD has some great online multiplayer modes)

 

[TrevHead]

I don't like the mouse and keyboard. They're bland, boring and purely utilitarian. I guess I grew up with too many old Nintendo games or something. I love controllers. I just have the long palms and mid-sized fingers for it I guess.

Plus keyboards don't rumble, and rumble scripting has gotten so good with modern gaming. It's surprising how much it can immerse you into a game.

Whem people say mouse and keyboard, I usually just use the mouse for my RTSs and Civ games.

That might be due to playing the wrong FPS games, Go play Serious Sam and Painkiller

 

[Inkidu]

I don't like the mouse and keyboard. They're bland, boring and purely utilitarian. I guess I grew up with too many old Nintendo games or something. I love controllers. I just have the long palms and mid-sized fingers for it I guess.

Plus keyboards don't rumble, and rumble scripting has gotten so good with modern gaming. It's surprising how much it can immerse you into a game.

Whem people say mouse and keyboard, I usually just use the mouse for my RTSs and Civ games.

That might be due to playing the wrong FPS games, Go play Serious Sam and Painkiller

You know, honestly the choice between Serious Sam and Painkiller over say CoD or some other modernistic shooter would have nothing to do with what they're played with, but more with how they're meant to be played in general. I'm not a big FPs guy. Let's see: Metro 2033, Battlefield: BC 2. I used to have CoD 4, but I finally got bored of it.

 

[Aerograt]

Solution to the controller problem:

MAKE YOUR ANALOG STICKS WITH PARTS THAT COST MORE THAN $.02.

What's wrong with controllers isn't the fact that they're controllers, it's because they're SHIT.

How could analogue sticks be improved to give them something close to mouse precision? I haven't heard of expensive controllers being quicker, the only way to make turning speed quicker is to bump up the sensitivity.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Solution to the controller problem:

MAKE YOUR ANALOG STICKS WITH PARTS THAT COST MORE THAN $.02.

What's wrong with controllers isn't the fact that they're controllers, it's because they're SHIT.

How could analogue sticks be improved to give them something close to mouse precision? I haven't heard of expensive controllers being quicker, the only way to make turning speed quicker is to bump up the sensitivity.

I'm not talking about 3rd party controllers, here.
The problem is, every single game assumes your analog stick can only signals that are rubbish in precision.
Meaning, if you want to increase your turning speed, you increase the sensitivity, right?
Well, sure .. but at what price?

There are these things called a dead zone on an analog stick. So your sensitivity is way up and you can turn fast, that's fine.
But, if say you want to move your targeting reticule 5 pixels to the left. You can't, anymore.
Because, the stick says "no signal, no signal, no signal, no signal, 8 pixels to the left."

Now, what would happen if you have a stick that can and does say "no signal, 2 pixels, 4 pixels, 6 pixels, 8 pixels?"
It wouldn't matter, because your target is already auto-tracking, and there is no option to turn that off.

It may be possible to use a super-precise controller on a PC, because at least, in a bunch of titles, you can disable the FUCKING AIMBOT.
PCs are not dictatorships. You get to choose your own peripherals and decide how they work.
On a console, even if you go 3rd party, they still have to work like the proprietary controller.

Ok, let me use a couple of examples of control schemes that have been fixed.
Remember the Wii mote when it was first released?
It was nigh useless for precision, and consequently, the games for wii couldn't feature precise motion controls, as there was no precision to be had.
Hence, the waggle-fest.
Now, you have that wii motion plus thing, and it's a lot better. Sure, there are still waggle fests, but NOW you can actually say the developers are just making a shit game.

How about mouse & keyboard?
It hasn't been a smooth road getting here. THERE WAS AIMBOTTING FOR PC FPS TOO, IN THE BEGINNING.
People always forget that.

Play Doom 2 or something, and that was when you turn with the arrow keys on a keyboard.
That's some horrible precision right there, so to compensate for it, anything in the general vicinity of the middle of your monitor will be hit when you shoot.
Move forwards abit, to ... say ... Duke 3D ('cos it's probably a hot topic right now). That thing still had aimbotting, even though you had mouselook. Why?
'cos people were using extremely low DPI (compared to the cheapest mouse on the market now) mice that use a freakin' rubber ball that would do all sorts of unpredictable nonsense if you even get a tiny bit of dust on the rollers.
But once those shithouse wheel mice started getting phased out, developers realised that even the shittest mouse anyone is likely to have will be adequately precise to not require a FUCKING AIMBOT.

Sure, it was a gradual process, and some developers were more ahead of the curve than others, but there you have it.
The issue with controllers is, they do not change. Ever. How much more precise is the PS3 controller compared to the PS2's?

The better tools have to come first, before the software can be made for them.

 

[Joccaren]

Hasn't the point that m&k > gamepad for fps's already been proven?
You're talking about simply a faster method of movement:
point and click is always faster than acceleration

this really doesn't matter anyway, as long as everyone is on the same playing field (unless you're at the absolute highest levels of play)

also: different control method =/= "dumbing down"
it's a different method of control that some people happen to prefer, like you happen to prefer pc games and m&k

He's saying that the level design is being affected by the limitations of console controls. As they can't turn around as fast, or aim as well, there tends to be fewer enemies on screen, and the levels tend to be more linear, with enemies usually infront of you. This, is dumbing down for consoles. It is not just a preference in control method. If developers didn't do this, console players would start to hate FPSs as they would become VERY difficult. Pcs on the other hand, would get a better experience for this, with more challenging things in the game then 'hide behind cover till the enemy stops shooting, shoot'.

 

[ZeZZZZevy]

Hasn't the point that m&k > gamepad for fps's already been proven?
You're talking about simply a faster method of movement:
point and click is always faster than acceleration

this really doesn't matter anyway, as long as everyone is on the same playing field (unless you're at the absolute highest levels of play)

also: different control method =/= "dumbing down"
it's a different method of control that some people happen to prefer, like you happen to prefer pc games and m&k

He's saying that the level design is being affected by the limitations of console controls. As they can't turn around as fast, or aim as well, there tends to be fewer enemies on screen, and the levels tend to be more linear, with enemies usually infront of you. This, is dumbing down for consoles. It is not just a preference in control method. If developers didn't do this, console players would start to hate FPSs as they would become VERY difficult. Pcs on the other hand, would get a better experience for this, with more challenging things in the game then 'hide behind cover till the enemy stops shooting, shoot'.

I guess that makes sense. I was thinking only in the sense of multiplayer. But a limit on enemies can also be due to consoles having considerably less RAM than a gaming computer, so it's probably not the sole cause.

 

[GeneWard]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. PC Gaming and Console Gaming aren't mutually exclusive. And to any PC elitists out there, you (hopefully) wouldn't judge someone for wanting to eat spaghetti with a fork and spoon rather than a fork and knife, as they both have their own merits, and everyone has their own opinion, (best analogy ever) so why judge someone because they prefer a pad to M&K? And please don't accuse me of console bias.

 

[GiantRaven]

...can't games just be about having fun, instead of ridiculous contests between consoles/PC

I never really saw the huge difference between the two myself.

 

[DrEmo]

Hasn't the point that m&k > gamepad for fps's already been proven?
You're talking about simply a faster method of movement:
point and click is always faster than acceleration

this really doesn't matter anyway, as long as everyone is on the same playing field (unless you're at the absolute highest levels of play)

also: different control method =/= "dumbing down"
it's a different method of control that some people happen to prefer, like you happen to prefer pc games and m&k

He's saying that the level design is being affected by the limitations of console controls. As they can't turn around as fast, or aim as well, there tends to be fewer enemies on screen, and the levels tend to be more linear, with enemies usually infront of you. This, is dumbing down for consoles. It is not just a preference in control method. If developers didn't do this, console players would start to hate FPSs as they would become VERY difficult. Pcs on the other hand, would get a better experience for this, with more challenging things in the game then 'hide behind cover till the enemy stops shooting, shoot'.

I've never seen this point stated so perfectly.

If PC gamers used this argument when saying that consoles are dumbing down their games, I'd believe them.

On that same note console shooters (Single player) are quite terrible. Multiplayer is the only way they can be fun/challenging. I'd hate for that trend to continue.

 

[Wolfram23]

That's a joke, right? Modern FPS games would be laughed into oblivion if they used that gameplay. The only reason it was ever like that is because the AI and animations didn't alow any sort of decent cover based shooting, even as primitive as Goldeneye on N64 had some sort of cover usage.

Also, movement is, IMO, more precise with a gamepad but aiming better with a mouse. It actually boggles my mind that there aren't any PC gaming accessories with a thumbstick for movement. All the dedicated gaming pads/keyboards still opt to use WASD type movement keys. It's just wierd to me. I wish that Logitech G13 had a proper thumbstick.