The difference of isms.

[FalloutJack]

I'm going to do a very honest, fair, and equal-sharing thing for all parties concerned by just not caring.

 

[wulf3n]

Then how do races exist? There must exist enough common genetic differences for us to actually have racial distinctions.

They don't. "Race" is a social construct.
[link]http://www.realfuture.org/GIST/Readings/Templeton%281998%29.pdf[/link]

While I don't completely disagree with Dr. Templeton's research, mostly in that "race" is poorly defined, I believe treating race as a synonym for sub-species is incorrect, and why he reaches the conclusions he does.

Given that there is no agreed upon distinction of how much diversity/commonality distinguishes race it's all ultimately moot.

In the end, it has no bearing on my original point either so...


edit:

Looking back I'm not really sure what you were even trying to achieve with your initial response.

It looks as though you were trying to trick me into saying something racist, but comes off as incredibly disingenuous.

 

[chikusho]

While I don't completely disagree with Dr. Templeton's research, mostly in that "race" is poorly defined, I believe treating race as a synonym for sub-species is incorrect, and why he reaches the conclusions he does.

Given that there is no agreed upon distinction of how much diversity/commonality distinguishes race it's all ultimately moot.

In the end, it has no bearing on my original point either so...

edit:

Looking back I'm not really sure what you were even trying to achieve with your initial response.

It looks as though you were trying to trick me into saying something racist, but comes off as incredibly disingenuous.

You were implying differences in human beings other than skin color. Naturally I was curious as to what you meant by that.

Human "race" is nothing but a social construct.

It still has enormous bearing on your original point. If you are pointing out biological or genetic differences between a "black man" and a "white man" as being more than skin color, when the differences in genetics and biology are larger on an individual level rather than between "races", there isn't be any consistent argument you could make that would be correct.

So, to conclude, if there are no consistent differences between dark skinned and light skinned, how is it "naive" to consider "amount of melanin in their skin" to be the only relevant difference?

 

[wulf3n]

You were implying differences in human beings other than skin color. Naturally I was curious as to what you meant by that.

Human "race" is nothing but a social construct.

It still has enormous bearing on your original point. If you are pointing out biological or genetic differences between a "black man" and a "white man" as being more than skin color, when the differences in genetics and biology are larger on an individual level rather than between "races", there isn't be any consistent argument you could make that would be correct.

So, to conclude, if there are no consistent differences between dark skinned and light skinned, how is it "naive" to consider "amount of melanin in their skin" to be the only relevant difference?

The idea comes from seeing those with Albinism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism] in which the skin [among everything else] is white but they don't look "white"

This demonstrates that skin colour is only one aspect of what the average person identifies as a part of race.

But I still don't see how this relates in any way to the point I was making regarding the human propensity for assumptions.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

Strength of character is a choice one makes internally at some point in their lives. It is not something that is beaten into you by abuse. (Bullying)

Abused individuals often suffer, and become weak, afraid, cowardly, etc. It's a side effect of the evil inflicted on them.

Your lack of compassion shown in this thread on the first page (OP), shows me just how weak your character is. You demand, and expect a great deal from others (bravery, courage, "thick skin" in the face of provocation (bullying)) but yet you display a myriad of extremely weak character flaws.

Good men do not provoke, neither do they become provoked. Nor are we quick to anger and violence. We don't wear pride around our necks and we don't associate ourselves with fools who would provoke us to begin with. Wisdom is a tool to prevent pain and suffering of all kinds.

Real or not, these things should not be said. 'ist' or not, they should not be said. You should not have such a filthy tongue that you need to even joke about belittling women. You talk a lot about growing up... atleast on the first page (about all I could stand to read) but you seem still very much steeped in the mindset of a teenage male.

You are totally right "-isms" have become a hysterical cult with their acolytes so convinced of their own moral and intellectual superiority they feel they can ban, prohibit and bully on a whim.

I am deeply worried about the aggressive imposition of extreme left wing morality, "because it's right", on society, so much more so that any the far right does these day, they are fairly useless all told. The extreme left wing is insidious.

You only have to look at some of the ridiculous naval gazing on here to see how utterly self-absorbed, sanctimonious and generally censorious many of these proponents of "-isms" become.

You just have to ignore it because they are ironically almost fascist in their self belief.

^ That all I am going to say because that poster said it better than I.

 

[chikusho]

The idea comes from seeing those with Albinism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism] in which the skin [among everything else] is white but they don't look "white"

This demonstrates that skin colour is only one aspect of what the average person identifies as a part of race.

But I still don't see how this relates in any way to the point I was making regarding the human propensity for assumptions.

Yes, in the _social construct_ of "race", a person who is supposed to have a certain pigment, yet does not due to a genetic anomaly, is still considered to be part of that "race". I also love the fact that you think there's a specific "white" look, and that inheriting appearance from your parents constitute a _racial_ differences. Genetically, every human being alive is of mixed "race", and you need to realize that to know why this whole "race" thing is so ridiculous.
Also, curious how that doesn't work the other way around. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Laing] *edited to correct link*

In case you hadn't guessed, it's because of racism.

*EDIT*

Oh, and also, I never asked you about assumptions.

You are totally right "-isms" have become a hysterical cult with their acolytes so convinced of their own moral and intellectual superiority they feel they can ban, prohibit and bully on a whim.

I am deeply worried about the aggressive imposition of extreme left wing morality, "because it's right", on society, so much more so that any the far right does these day, they are fairly useless all told. The extreme left wing is insidious.

You only have to look at some of the ridiculous naval gazing on here to see how utterly self-absorbed, sanctimonious and generally censorious many of these proponents of "-isms" become.

You just have to ignore it because they are ironically almost fascist in their self belief.

^ That all I am going to say because that poster said it better than I.

Yes, telling bullies to stop bullying is _obviously_ being "[so] convinced of their own moral and intellectual superiority they feel they can ban, prohibit and bully on a whim."

That was sarcastic, in case it isn't apparent to everyone.

 

[maffro]

You may assume all blacks can run super fast, which is a racist generalisation, even though many would believe it's a positive assumption and supported by the predominance of god-tier black sprinters.

Humans are naturally geared towards generalisations. We make assumptions based on the limited information we have, I don't know I'f i'd call this Racism.

Say the only time I'd seen men with long hair was at heavy metal concerts, then one day I bump into a guy with long hair and automatically assume he likes heavy metal.

Does this make me a bad person?

Yet if I were to do the same with the Black sprinters I'd be considered racist.

Captcha: sudo make sandwhich.

No captcha I'm talking about Racism not Sexism.

This is a good distinction, and one very much worth making.

While you're definitely expressing prejudice through that assumption, no, it doesn't make you a bad person at all. The difference here is kind of in regards to choice.

Long hair, mainly on white men, is a significant part of music culture from hard rock to the many metal genres. While it wouldn't be fair to assume all men with long hair associate with the metalheads, it is fair to observe how predominant the style is. It's pretty much the only way they can immediately identify one another no matter what clothes they're wearing.

So when you bump into that guy, it's a fair generalisation. He has chosen to grow his hair, a style with close ties to a very specific culture. He must have chosen to do so for a reason, so you assume it's because he's a part of that culture. You might be wrong, but no-one gets hurt.

In terms of racism, if I assume a black guy is amazing at running it gets more difficult. He hasn't chosen to be black, so he's not making a statement with his appearance. He may grow his hair, or buy certain clothes, or speak in a way which tells you something about his background, which is fair to make assumptions from. The issue with racism is taking the most visible, and unchangeable attribute of someone's appearance and defining them through that alone.

I used to get beaten up for having long hair, because people didn't like the culture I was a part of, so in the end I cut my hair, because I wanted to change the assumptions people made about me. But with race it doesn't matter how many statements you make with your appearance, they'll always define you by that one feature, if it deviates from the norm. The way people look tells you a lot about their choices and personality, and it's dehumanising to boil it down to their most base feature.

So yeah, I guess. Fashion cool, racists mean. Something like that.

 

[wulf3n]

Yes, in the _social construct_ of "race", a person who is supposed to have a certain pigment, yet does not due to a genetic anomaly, is still considered to be part of that "race".

You missed the point completely. Skin colour is only one visual cue used to identify race.

I also love the fact that you think there's a specific "white" look, and that inheriting appearance from your parents constitute a _racial_ differences.

I never said "specific". I merely pointed out there are visual traits other than skin colour, common amongst race.

Also, curious how that doesn't work the other way around. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism]

In case you hadn't guessed, it's because of racism.

What? Are you saying it's because of racism that no genetic anomaly exists that creates an abundance of Melanin [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanosis]?

Oh, and also, I never asked you about assumptions.

I know, but it's what I was talking about. This whole side discussion, while not only off-topic, is completely irrelevant to anything I've actually been discussing.

 

[chikusho]

You missed the point completely. Skin colour is only one visual cue used to identify race.

Incorrect. Skin color is only one visual cue used to identify skin color.

I never said "specific". I merely pointed out there are visual traits other than skin colour, common amongst race.

Yes. Traits. Traits which appear singular or in combination with people of any background across the planet.

What? Are you saying it's because of racism that no genetic anomaly exists that creates an abundance of Melanin [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanosis]?

Sorry, wrong link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Laing

I know, but it's what I was talking about. This whole side discussion, while not only off-topic, is completely irrelevant to anything I've actually been discussing.

But it's not irrelevant to you saying that it's naive to think skin color is the only difference between a black and a white person.

 

[wulf3n]

Yes. Traits. Traits which appear singular or in combination with people of any background across the planet.

And are you also saying that those traits can't be used to help identify a persons ancestry?

Sorry, wrong link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Laing

So how does this not work the other way around?

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

Strength of character is a choice one makes internally at some point in their lives. It is not something that is beaten into you by abuse. (Bullying)

Abused individuals often suffer, and become weak, afraid, cowardly, etc. It's a side effect of the evil inflicted on them.

Your lack of compassion shown in this thread on the first page (OP), shows me just how weak your character is. You demand, and expect a great deal from others (bravery, courage, "thick skin" in the face of provocation (bullying)) but yet you display a myriad of extremely weak character flaws.

Good men do not provoke, neither do they become provoked. Nor are we quick to anger and violence. We don't wear pride around our necks and we don't associate ourselves with fools who would provoke us to begin with. Wisdom is a tool to prevent pain and suffering of all kinds.

Real or not, these things should not be said. 'ist' or not, they should not be said. You should not have such a filthy tongue that you need to even joke about belittling women. You talk a lot about growing up... atleast on the first page (about all I could stand to read) but you seem still very much steeped in the mindset of a teenage male.

You are totally right "-isms" have become a hysterical cult with their acolytes so convinced of their own moral and intellectual superiority they feel they can ban, prohibit and bully on a whim.

I am deeply worried about the aggressive imposition of extreme left wing morality, "because it's right", on society, so much more so that any the far right does these day, they are fairly useless all told. The extreme left wing is insidious.

You only have to look at some of the ridiculous naval gazing on here to see how utterly self-absorbed, sanctimonious and generally censorious many of these proponents of "-isms" become.

You just have to ignore it because they are ironically almost fascist in their self belief.

^ That all I am going to say because that poster said it better than I.

Really? Fucking really? I just have to ask, are you serious? Absolutely serious? You're incapable of acting like a decent human being because the '-isms have become a hysterical cult'? You believe you're bullied because PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU TO NOT BE A DICK TO PEOPLE? That somehow, all the people asking you to show some common fucking decency are 'insidious agents of the Left Wing Morality'?

I...I just... there are no words. There are no words to describe this. A man with intimate knowledge of every language that has ever existed, ever will exist and even those that don't exist will look at this and go 'Fuck that, I've got nothing'. That is how impossible it is to describe this... travesty.

I kinda knew you would take this approach to that statement. Weither you want to admit it, or not. It's still true.

Also. I am telling people not to be so damn sensietive all the damn fucking time.
The statement "grow a thick skin" is completely and reasonable statement.

Why?

Because people like YOU who can't get over the fact that people are going to make cruel jokes.

You know what people like you do?
You censor shit.
You censor, censor, and censor anything remotely offensive for the sake of acting like some superior being.
And any opposing opinions is attacked and treated has lesser because. Well. You want to be so morally right.

Should I bring up the countless people who been black listed?
The countless books that have been banned?
The countless artist that have been attacked and blamed for horrible things for like school shootings?
Seriously.. some artist says/does some offensive things and then gets blamed for school shootings.

Books that have been around for *hundreds of years* and are tied into deep history accurately are being banned just because someone is offensive?

Is this right?

So yeah, It's a damn cult of people that just can not shake their own Christ Armor and laugh at themselves once and awhile.

Edit:

Since you're gaming forum. I assume you play violent video games.

This is one the thing I hate about the society of America.
It seems to have no problem with no extreme forms of violence what so ever.
Things like Saw movies, Chivalry, War of the Roses, Metal Gear Solid rising.

All of things are perfectly okay and not offensive to a wide range of people on this site.

So when... did a joke get more offensive than hacking off someones limbs?

Why is extremes forms of violence consider to be less offensive than a joke?

 

[chikusho]

And are you also saying that those traits can't be used to help identify a persons ancestry?

Nope, I'm saying that ancestry is irrelevant since there is no such thing as "race" in humanity.

So how does this not work the other way around?

Because even though she was a genetically white girl with white parents in a white community, she still got treated as a black person. Because of racism.
On the other hand, a black person born white is still considered a black person. Because people believe there's such a thing as "race".

*edit*

I kinda knew you would take this approach to that statement. Weither you want to admit it, or not. It's still true.

No, it's not.

Also. I am telling people not to be so damn sensietive all the damn fucking time.
The statement "grow a thick skin" is completely and reasonable statement.

Why?

Because people like YOU who can't get over the fact that people are going to make cruel jokes.

Yet, somehow you haven't grown a thicker skin and are currently whining on the internet about people calling you out on being an asshole. Oh, the irony.

You know what people like you do?
You censor shit.
You censor, censor, and censor anything remotely offensive for the sake of acting like some superior being.
And any opposing opinions is attacked and treated has lesser because. Well. You want to be so morally right.

You know what people like you do?
You get defensive.
You get defensive, defensive, and deflect anything remotely reminiscent of criticism because you can't face the fact that you are an asshole.
And any opposing opinions are attacked and treated as lesser because. Well. You want to continue being an asshole, yet can't self-identify as one.

Should I bring up the countless people who been black listed?
The countless books that have been banned?
The countless artist that have been attacked and blamed for horrible things for like school shootings?
Seriously.. some artist says/does some offensive things and then gets blamed for school shootings.

Books that have been around for *hundreds of years* and are tied into deep history accurately are being banned just because someone is offensive?

Is this right?

So yeah, It's a damn cult of people that just can not shake their own Christ Armor and laugh at themselves once and awhile.

Nice straw man.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

I make racist jokes to my black friend.
She makes racist jokes towards me.
We are friends.
Does that make us horrible, evil people?

 

[wulf3n]

Nope, I'm saying that ancestry is irrelevant since there is no such thing as "race" in humanity.

You keep getting hung up on "race" as if that's the issue at hand. What's being discussed is the idea that you can make a reasonable deduction of ancestry a.k.a. race based on more than just skin colour.

Just go back and replace every instance of race with ancestry, because as far as I'm concerned it's effectively the same thing.

Because even though she was a genetically white girl with white parents in a white community, she still got treated as a black person. Because of racism.
On the other hand, a black person born white is still considered a black person. Because people believe there's such a thing as "race".

I disagree, distinction of common genetic differences resulting from geographical location doesn't cause discrimination. Trying to ignore differences that exist may solve the problem, but it's a case of treating the symptoms not treating the cause.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

I make racist jokes to my black friend.
She makes racist jokes towards me.
We are friends.
Does that make us horrible, evil people?

No of course not!
You both know each other!
Therefor it's okay!

/sarcasm.

But that's generally the response you're going to get.

 

[Rod Medrano]

I kinda knew you would take this approach to that statement. Weither you want to admit it, or not. It's still true.

Also. I am telling people not to be so damn sensietive all the damn fucking time.
The statement "grow a thick skin" is completely and reasonable statement.

Why?

Because people like YOU who can't get over the fact that people are going to make cruel jokes.

You know what people like you do?
You censor shit.
You censor, censor, and censor anything remotely offensive for the sake of acting like some superior being.
And any opposing opinions is attacked and treated has lesser because. Well. You want to be so morally right.

Should I bring up the countless people who been black listed?
The countless books that have been banned?
The countless artist that have been attacked and blamed for horrible things for like school shootings?
Seriously.. some artist says/does some offensive things and then gets blamed for school shootings.

Books that have been around for *hundreds of years* and are tied into deep history accurately are being banned just because someone is offensive?

Is this right?

So yeah, It's a damn cult of people that just can not shake their own Christ Armor and laugh at themselves once and awhile.

Edit:

Since you're gaming forum. I assume you play violent video games.

This is one the thing I hate about the society of America.
It seems to have no problem with no extreme forms of violence what so ever.
Things like Saw movies, Chivalry, War of the Roses, Metal Gear Solid rising.

All of things are perfectly okay and not offensive to a wide range of people on this site.

So when... did a joke get more offensive than hacking off someones limbs?

Why is extremes forms of violence consider to be less offensive than a joke?

Stop posting forever.