We're getting lazy. We're getting apathetic. We just don't want to fucking think.
Fortunately, I'm not one of them.
Fortunately, I'm not one of them.
The Dumbing Down of Video Games
- Thread starter Valentine82
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Contra is simple old game. This game's story could have just said."Blow shit up! Kill all that moves!" Not every game has to be oblivion's level of complexity.{Nothing against oblivion tho.} Every game shouldn't take 2 to 4 hours just to learn all the game fuctions. cough gta 4 cough People need to realise that games should not be like rocket science. Games should be fun. If it is fun then it does its job.
joobnook47 Thank You
joobnook47 up there just pointed out something I should have pointed out myself. Video Games are being dumbed down, but it's not just video games. Movies are being dumbed down as well. In fact it seems as if our entire society is being dumbed down.
joobnook47 up there just pointed out something I should have pointed out myself. Video Games are being dumbed down, but it's not just video games. Movies are being dumbed down as well. In fact it seems as if our entire society is being dumbed down.
A lot of the stuff here seems uncalled for, I'm 17 but one of my favorite games is the original Gabriel Knight...which came out when I was two. Please don't blame my generation for something that's just the result of misunderstandings.
Now that technology has come far enough that it's possible to make a game without describing half the environment in text, there's no inherent need to add in so much text, so they simply don't. Plus that's a moot point anyway, given how banal some of the original interactive fiction and early adventure games were. For example Day of the Tentacle and The Secret of Monkey Island aren't anymore mature than modern games like Fable2 are, and those are cult classics.
Please remember that the original movies were shit too, before the makers realized that something serious instead of slapstick or cliche could go over just as well. What the industry has right now is growing pains, so just let them pass or (like Vince from Iron Tower Studios) do something about it.
Now that technology has come far enough that it's possible to make a game without describing half the environment in text, there's no inherent need to add in so much text, so they simply don't. Plus that's a moot point anyway, given how banal some of the original interactive fiction and early adventure games were. For example Day of the Tentacle and The Secret of Monkey Island aren't anymore mature than modern games like Fable2 are, and those are cult classics.
Please remember that the original movies were shit too, before the makers realized that something serious instead of slapstick or cliche could go over just as well. What the industry has right now is growing pains, so just let them pass or (like Vince from Iron Tower Studios) do something about it.
teelong, I'm not saying there isn't a place for run and gun games like contra, I'm pointing out a trend in the industry. No not every game needs a lot of complexity, but it would be nice to see at least some games released each year that have all the complexity and story driven elements of Shadows of Amn.
Oh god, you people again. You are not special because you payed $600 extra so you could play Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. Get over yourself.Halfbreed13 said:
Anyway to be on topic I present a quote.
"Every generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it."
George Orwell (1903 - 1950)
UMMM that's not true.Valentine82 said:
I study Genetics, molecular biology and cell biology, and that's not true.
And to your argument -> quantify intelligence.
If you don't believe me read the book "the bell curve" by Richard J. Herrnstein and the various rebuttals that have been published.
The problem with IQ tests was that they were developed with a set of white, middle class, American children, and they were standarised by the pupils going on to achieve scholastic success. Very few scientific establishments will carry out an IQ test, but a number of completely different tests.
The mean value of heritability of IQ is about 0.5. That means that about half OF THE VARIATION of IQ in a population is down to genes. This is pretty much trivial genetically speaking. It effectively means you can negate the effects of inheritance with good environmental and developmental progress.
As to the monozygotic twin studies you mentioned, these are the most flawed measure of non-visible concordance there is, as it a) only measures concordance, and not heritability, and b) is by no means a controlled environment.
But I am open to new ideas and ethos, and if any real data is published I'll muster it over.
Mertruve: The Average IQ level is not rising in most established nations, it's falling. The average IQ level in the United States is 90-100 now. The Flynn Effect is in reverse.
taly: Education can play some small role, in that it effects the syntax and tool set that we use. Knowing who first discovered the Americas won't help, of course.
taly: Education can play some small role, in that it effects the syntax and tool set that we use. Knowing who first discovered the Americas won't help, of course.
Hot'n'steamy: At least thirty heritable traits that effect intelligence in a positive way have been identified, and many traits that negatively effect intelligence have been known of for a long time. I suggest you study findings that post-date the early 1990's. Learning disabilities can often be inherited, no matter how discomforting the notion.
The simple fact is it's never been a consistantly high number of intelligent games. You may remember the well told ones better and frown on the more recent ones, but that doesn't make your point valid.
Torment was one of the most brilliant games ever written, and surpassing it will be hard. But that doesn't change that games like Mass Effect, Bioshock, Silent Hill 2, and Fallout 3 have any less of grand stories. In fact, some of the story telling is more intelligent in games, as it's never expressly spelled out for you, but the world oozes story and atmosphere, and information is there to be gleaned. Fallout 3 again is an example, as are Portal and Left 4 Dead. I love that there is story to L4D when it's strictly multiplayer and never spells anything out. Notes on the walls, cryptic scenes, and random conversations between the PCs tell you nearly everything about what happened.
Torment was one of the most brilliant games ever written, and surpassing it will be hard. But that doesn't change that games like Mass Effect, Bioshock, Silent Hill 2, and Fallout 3 have any less of grand stories. In fact, some of the story telling is more intelligent in games, as it's never expressly spelled out for you, but the world oozes story and atmosphere, and information is there to be gleaned. Fallout 3 again is an example, as are Portal and Left 4 Dead. I love that there is story to L4D when it's strictly multiplayer and never spells anything out. Notes on the walls, cryptic scenes, and random conversations between the PCs tell you nearly everything about what happened.
So, someone is gifted.Valentine82 said:
Giftedness means nothing when it is not applied to everyday life. If they are raised to be fools, or if they choose to be failures in life. And I must point out that gifted people are also more likely to be insane. And really, who is going to be effecting the gaming industry more, the genius whose sitting in a mental institution or the simpleton whose cleaning public toilets?
And what about the high-functioning people? Just normal people who achieve the incredible through hard work?
Genetics, blah, blah, blah. Its all about how genetics manifest, based on the environment.
Are you talking about a particular period of gaming, gaming in general, or a select few games that you hand-picked? I'm a little confused because this post reeks of over-generalizing and baseless cynicism.Valentine82 said:
I mean, don't get me wrong, I thought Super Mario Brothers for the NES has the most heartbreaking story of loss and heroism in the face of adversity I think I've ever encountered and Donkey Kong was a fantastic allegory of the obstacles one has to overcome to find true love in a dark and confusing world...but let's be realistic here: the vast majority of video games ARE "dumbed down" and have been since someone decided to have a giant pixel bounce around across a screen. This is absolutely nothing new in the grand scheme of things.
The reason being is that most gamers aren't interested in doing artsy things like playing an interactive novel that borrows from the subtle humanist viewpoint of James Joyce or interpreting Bioshock as a direct allegory of objectivism, they just want to escape and have fun; that's all game developers care about and all gamers expect of these companies. At that, it seems pretty obvious that not everyone is talented or ambitious enough to make games that break any molds - and who can blame them?
All I'm saying is that you may find a few diamonds in a coal mine, but it's still a coal mine. This all seems to be a flimsy pretense to your REAL point, which is that...let me see if I can get this straight...current video game trends are reflecting an evolutionary drop in IQ as seen in entertainment media? Careful carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders, it's a pretty flimsy-looking theory and could come tumbling down.
So indulge me this poke at said rickety theory: I perk an eyebrow at this insinuation because, first of all, what kind of entertainment media have you been taking in? Have you been locked in an underground vault for the past twenty years or so with only a full archive of Postmodernist literature and Stanley Kubrick films or something? Entertainment media exists for the purpose of - you won't believe this - entertaining! The point of watching TV or going to a movie or playing a video game is to NOT be stimulated; one lets go of having to constantly be barraged by information and just focus on something bright and shiny and distracting. One goes to school or museums and whatnot to learn, no one expects to watch Seinfeld and learn international trade commerce or ponder Apologist philosophy.
If there is ANY correlation between ANY entertainment media and collective intelligence, it is the tendency of modern mass media to bombard viewers with information rather than actually teaching them anything; news channels are the most notorious culprits as they condense complex issues down to thirty seconds blurbs and then cut to commercials. Combine that with an increasingly sedentary lifestyle and we have Aldous Huxley's Brave New World on the horizon - which is a work of fiction meant to contrast Orwell's 1984, not a valid prediction of anything I might add before anyone starts nodding their heads in agreement. At that, the entertainment industry has been around for centuries even before electricity; look at the work of the Bronte sisters, Shakespeare, and Lord Byron. They were just writing cheesy little tropes to make a quick buck! It's just plain silly to assume what entertains us is ANY measure of our abilities as a species; even scientists have hobbies for cripe's sake.
Your post is a self-fulfilling prophecy because you really haven't predicted anything: humanity is THAT stupid and always has been. By comparison, we're still as advanced as the Greeks; sure, we have iPods and the internet, but we're still wrestling with the same questions and problems they were. In the long run, we're super-chimpanzees as far as evolution is concerned. Just face it: the entertainment industry exists only to capitalize on this fact. It's not like we were on the verge of inventing flying cars, curing cancer, or establishing the true meaning of our existence in an indifferent universe before Hollywood and the Atari were invented is all I'm saying.
...and by the way, I can't believe you cited Baldur's Gate. That was an awful franchise. I'm glad you added the early Fallout titles to balance this out.
Jennacide I see your point but the simple fact is Fallout 3 had a plot full of holes, and the "Good/Evil" dynamic was more along the lines of choosing between the characteristics of an immature angsty jerk and a self sacrificing idiot.
I have to say Mass Effect was pretty good, and I try not to comment on it simply because I didn't find the story engrossing. I leave it alone, because I don't think I can fairly comment on it. Silent Hill 2 is an example of one of the oldies though, if you play the more recent Silent Hill games you'll see what Yatzee is talking about when he rips on them.
The games you mentioned do ooze atmosphere, but atmosphere alone does not a story make. Fallout 3 had a fantastic atmospheric setting that rarely got exploited properly, but even if it had been exploited properly it would not make up for the horrendous story line and the fact that the simple run and gun gameplay took absolute precedent over the PC to NPC interactions that played a role in making the previous Fallout games so great.
I have to say Mass Effect was pretty good, and I try not to comment on it simply because I didn't find the story engrossing. I leave it alone, because I don't think I can fairly comment on it. Silent Hill 2 is an example of one of the oldies though, if you play the more recent Silent Hill games you'll see what Yatzee is talking about when he rips on them.
The games you mentioned do ooze atmosphere, but atmosphere alone does not a story make. Fallout 3 had a fantastic atmospheric setting that rarely got exploited properly, but even if it had been exploited properly it would not make up for the horrendous story line and the fact that the simple run and gun gameplay took absolute precedent over the PC to NPC interactions that played a role in making the previous Fallout games so great.
Who needs "riveting storylines" and "compelling characters" when you can be blasting crap with giant space guns?
There's nothing wrong with great stories in game, I say it improves the experience, but it is purely second nature to good gameplay. There is nothing wrong with Kill Saw Gun Blaze 3: The Blood Bath as long as it's fun. Because that's what games are all about. Having fun.
There's nothing wrong with great stories in game, I say it improves the experience, but it is purely second nature to good gameplay. There is nothing wrong with Kill Saw Gun Blaze 3: The Blood Bath as long as it's fun. Because that's what games are all about. Having fun.
Learning difficulties can indeed be inherited. But, these are normally protein-based misexpression sequences, or large scale karyotypic deletions/non disjunction. Learning difficulties are caused by things going wrong in a big way. For instance, Autism is now believed to be connected to cell adhesion protein failures amongst dendrites, and Alzheimer's down to various transmembrane proteins such as beta amyloid peptide being incorrectly spliced. This diseases can be seen to have a genetic element- as they can be seen to fit with the central genetic dogma of gene->mRNA->DNA.Valentine82 said:
The notion that intelligence however my be down to the fluctuation in protein expression between generations, caused by random mutagenesis, is pretty much preposterous because "intelligence" has no 1 gene product. In the same way as obesity can be defined as inheritable, there are SO many factors for to whether you fidget, or if you lack certain neurotransmitters yada yada yada...it's so multifaceted, that (and here's the important bit); the extent that the genes add to intelligence is negligible due to the extent of the variability of the environment. The rate of change of human existence is fast that only selection pressures with a similar rate of selection (i.e. AIDS), have any effect.
Finally the argument is entirely circular for the "stupidification" of a population.
Can't be arsed to argue anymore so i'm just saying that's my $2.
Erana, even though you try to minimize it's importance and it's impact at least you recognize that genetics plays a role in intelligence with your admission that people are born gifted.
Like I said, several genetic factors have been identified that both positively and negatively effect intelligence. More negative genetic factors have of course been identified simply because they're more apparent a lot of the time and people started noticing them long before they knew what DNA was.
Erana, I would assume you wouldn't have a problem admitting that genetics plays a large role in a person's preferences. After all studies with identical twins have confirmed this and it's lead to very little moral panic. It's interesting that the moment the discussion turns to the role of genetics on intelligence people suddenly start to get uncomfortable. In fact, it often seems to bring to thought the image of nazis marching across the Maginot Line for some reason.
Like I said, several genetic factors have been identified that both positively and negatively effect intelligence. More negative genetic factors have of course been identified simply because they're more apparent a lot of the time and people started noticing them long before they knew what DNA was.
Erana, I would assume you wouldn't have a problem admitting that genetics plays a large role in a person's preferences. After all studies with identical twins have confirmed this and it's lead to very little moral panic. It's interesting that the moment the discussion turns to the role of genetics on intelligence people suddenly start to get uncomfortable. In fact, it often seems to bring to thought the image of nazis marching across the Maginot Line for some reason.
I'd say the trend is that there's always dumb games. Games are only perceived as dumbing down, because no one wants to remember all the shit games that came out way back then. E.T., anyone? How about the CDi Zelda games? Do I even need to mention Superman 64? And who can forget Shaq Fu?Valentine82 said:
I'd take any mainstream game today over those piles of feces.
Generally, games are made based on what people are willing to pay for. If you find games becoming dumbed down, if you will, my guess is that this can be extrapolated to mean that people want "dumber" games. This doesn't necessarily mean that people have become dumber, but it could mean that gaming has become more mainstream and thus forced the developers to create games for "dumber" people, or people that look for other things than a deep and immersive story in a game, i.e. people who just want to blow up a few aliens for sake of relaxation, putting their minds of everything else etc. Personally I primarily play games for the sake of the story, but I've also been a pretty active WoW-gamer. Which was primarily to put my mind off everything else, and achieve some sort of mental relaxation.
Edit: Let's face it - if the people I occasionally PUG'ed KZ with have a level of intelligence that is representative for most gamers, there is no wonder games are becoming dumbed down.
Edit: Let's face it - if the people I occasionally PUG'ed KZ with have a level of intelligence that is representative for most gamers, there is no wonder games are becoming dumbed down.