I really wanted to play Dragon's Crown until I saw the female character models. It totally turned me off from the game. Why is that necessary? Have you seen the animation for her? They're just constantly flopping around. I know the game and art style is meant to be 'over the top'. It can be over the top without demeaning her into a sex object. And don't say it's the same for both genders here. The men are not 100% in impossibly contorted poses that are normally reserved for Hentai.
The final proof...
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You may not think you have these power fantasies for said reason but your subconscious mind most likely does think that.The Almighty Aardvark said:
I would also like to ask among which typical demographic vulnerable pretty boys are liked. Sensitive makes sense as it would suggest caring and thus more family oriented and more likely to take care of the offspring but vulnerable? (and in which way "vulnerable")
And ultimately, the traits with the most merit are those which will ensure you will be able to pass on your dna. As a living species survival of the species is what is most important to us, and from a biological point of view that demands reproduction and since we cannot do that on our own (well, ok, nowadays we can to a certain extent) and need a male and a female being "attractive" is extremely important. Maybe not on a societal level but it is on an individual and evolutionary one.
The lolicon comment was silly and inaccurate.
It doesn't mean that he's an idiot to be unhappy about the sorceress' appearance, though.
All I know is that I heard someone gushing about Dragon's Crown, I thought "ooh, what's that?", I entered the thread, saw the sorceress, and immediately clicked out, annoyed.
That's how you attract people to your game, right?
It doesn't mean that he's an idiot to be unhappy about the sorceress' appearance, though.
All I know is that I heard someone gushing about Dragon's Crown, I thought "ooh, what's that?", I entered the thread, saw the sorceress, and immediately clicked out, annoyed.
That's how you attract people to your game, right?
Ever the downer, aren't you? Being passive aggressive about your perfectly valid points because you think everyone around you is sexist doesn't really do anyone any favors...Moonlight Butterfly said:
The final proof! There we go. Close the doors and get back on the bus. Feminism is over. Sure, today I spent an hour watching GDC's wonderful meeting on their "one reason why", and read some excellent articles on the issues of women and games, but seeing one guy's post over a single video game character trumps everything else.
There is something that needs to be said here that goes beyond the discussion of whether or not individuals see specific content as sexist.
Someone presenting their personal criticism about specific title is not a personal affront to all of those who may enjoy said title. They are presenting criticism because they have a personal issue with the game and they want to discuss it. It goes beyond the discussion of sexism. Fanboys are spewing homophobic and racial slurs over speculations for consoles, one of which that hasn't even been officially announced.
Taking criticism can be hard. But this isn't even criticism directed at you. It's criticism of media that you may or may not enjoy.
Instead of getting personally offended, can we take a step back and just discuss how opinions on the topic? You think the sorceress art is sexist? Great! Explain why! You don't think it's sexist? Also great! Please discuss! I want to know your opinions and thoughts of the medium just as I want you to know mine.
These are conversations that need to happen. Whether or not you happen to think this particular instance is sexist or not, there is definitely an issue of sexism in the gaming industry. Just look at the backlash Anita Sarkeesian got for just WANTING to discuss her feelings on sexism in the industry. People were flipping their shit about it before she EVEN SAID ANYTHING.
Everyone needs to take a need breath, get their egos in check, and calm down so we can have a rational and thoughtful conversation about this.
Someone presenting their personal criticism about specific title is not a personal affront to all of those who may enjoy said title. They are presenting criticism because they have a personal issue with the game and they want to discuss it. It goes beyond the discussion of sexism. Fanboys are spewing homophobic and racial slurs over speculations for consoles, one of which that hasn't even been officially announced.
Taking criticism can be hard. But this isn't even criticism directed at you. It's criticism of media that you may or may not enjoy.
Instead of getting personally offended, can we take a step back and just discuss how opinions on the topic? You think the sorceress art is sexist? Great! Explain why! You don't think it's sexist? Also great! Please discuss! I want to know your opinions and thoughts of the medium just as I want you to know mine.
These are conversations that need to happen. Whether or not you happen to think this particular instance is sexist or not, there is definitely an issue of sexism in the gaming industry. Just look at the backlash Anita Sarkeesian got for just WANTING to discuss her feelings on sexism in the industry. People were flipping their shit about it before she EVEN SAID ANYTHING.
Everyone needs to take a need breath, get their egos in check, and calm down so we can have a rational and thoughtful conversation about this.
Hold it right there. She didn't get backlash because she said anything she got backlash because she made claims with huge implications. Saying videogames using the trope of damsel in distress encourages toxic views of women in RL isn't something to be taken lightly. It's on the same level as those who claim violent videogames make people violent. and guess what, they get flamed a lot as well.Scott Rothman said:
I'm fairly certain, I know very well of many things that I could do that would make me more attractive to the opposite sex, particularly people I know, but I don't because I simply don't find any of those options desirable to me. If my ideal fantasy of myself is based entirely on being desirable to women then I should leap at those options and completely change my appearance, mannerisms and clothing. Yet the idea of those changes is completely undesirable to megenerals3 said:
Also I'd suggest straying away from trying to make conclusions on people's personalities based on evolutionary reasons. Evolution is an incredibly complex field and the very nature of it makes it near impossible to work in that direction, evolution has countless different ways that it can work, so even something that would be logical and beneficial to be attracted to for reproduction might very well not be in demand because evolution hasn't taken that path.
As well there's positive reinforcement loops, which work particularly strongly in regards to sexually desired traits. A trait might not even be beneficial for a species to be desired and still become prominent. Great example of this are the tails of peacocks
Anyways, to answer your question about which demographic tends to like it, I am not entirely sure how I'd categorize the demographic. I have a few friends who're into yaoi (largely consisting of men of the type I was describing, you won't see anything beyond slim muscles) which as far as I'm aware is a market considerably more directed to women than gay guys. Not to mention that you find considerably less erotic fanfiction about characters like Kratos than you do of characters like Cloud.
Oh, and when I said vulnerable I meant emotionally vulnerable, not necessarily weak
EDIT: Changed some run on sentences to be a little bit more readable. I hope
I mostly agree with you. I don't think the 'Damsel in Distress' in video games causes sexism; I believe it goes the other way around. But, I do think there is something problematic about the lack of positive female role models in video games.generals3 said:
But see, even here, we are having a calm dialogue about issues you have with my view. And that's fine. Obviously you are more than welcome to disagree with me. But go back and just look at how many theads were created on her just to "prove her wrong." Or the flash game someone made where you get to beat her up (link below). People started screaming 'fraud', 'she doesn't know what she's talking about', 'her research is shit', etc.
I agree with some of what she said, disagreed with some of it. But I'm not going to start yelling about how 'fucking stupid' she is for suggesting that a lack of positive female characters in the video game industry would discourage some women from wanting to be apart of it, or that is isn't detrimental to the industry as a whole.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/118310-Flash-Game-Makes-Players-Beat-Up-Tropes-vs-Women-Creator
Sorry but everyone has there limit, you know? There's only so many times I can go up against seemingly everyone without becoming jaded.lacktheknack said:
If I thought I could get through to people I would try. But I just feel like I'm repeating myself over and over to a brick wall.
Maybe you should take a break from the gender threads. A vacation, if you will.Moonlight Butterfly said:
There are people who are against the objectification of women. They'll keep fighting the good fight until you feel ready to take up arms again.
Yes, thank you for drawing some attention to this overlooked detail because it is details like that which is where the real problem stems for me.The Almighty Aardvark said:Wow... the sorceress is even worse in that one. Is everybody noticing the placement of the staff there? I can't believe people are trying to turn this into a power fantasy or draw a false equivalence to guys. Or maybe there's some vast reservoir of male characters in games grinding their ass and groin against objects that I've completely missed out on.Kopikatsu said:
Do people even realize what it means to equate this and muscular game characters under power fantasies? Apparently a guy's power fantasy is to be strong and powerful, while a girl's is to be something that a guy would lust after.
The mere presence of large breasts is not what I take issue with. It is the positioning and impression the character gives.
She's bent over with her posterior posed in the direction of the viewer. Her staff positioned between her butt, emphasizing the curve of each cheek. All while her chest hangs in such a way that it threatens to spill out of her low, low, very freaking low cut top; and she's stuffing a skeleton's head into her cleavage because, because necromancy? All of this because what exactly? This isn't even getting into her actual gameplay animations. I have not seen her in a single pose that does not involve her thrusting out her chest as much as possible and gratuitous amounts of jiggling.
You can look at the other characters and get some sort of meaningful impression from them.
The knight is a strong and steady iron juggernaut with his grim hunched over pose and raised shield.
The dwarf stands as an unarmored combatant, weapon raised in a proud and grandiose stance showing a broad and fearless strength.
The elf is positioned in such a way to imply she isn't going to be standing there for long. She is comparatively petite, giving the impression of someone who is agile and prefers to fight away from the action.
You get no such meaningful feeling from the Sorceress, her presentation has no correlation to what she is when it comes to adventuring like her colleagues. She is not being presented as a woman of terrifying magical prowess regardless of her shapely body. As it is, her character does not attempt to be anything but sex appeal.
But here we're talking about the conscious level. I was referring to the unconscious level. And let me ask you one question wouldn't you like to be considered extremely attractive? I sure know I would, however just like you i ain't going to jump through hoops to become the perfect mate (and also because sometimes i find some of the traits undesirable). But this ultimately doesn't change the fact the male power fantasy is at its most basic level also the typical female sexual fantasy (or an exaggerated form of it), if you look at your typical male power fantasy movies in Hollywood you'll notice that eventually the power fantasy gets the chick (or more than one in the case of james bond).The Almighty Aardvark said:
Now the problem is that the male power fantasy is used to refer only to what the male wants to be. And off course most people like to give meaning to their own desires and with our strong conscious mind we also have different reasons to fantasize than just to be the ultimate playboy. However what you will notice is that what are often considered being "male power fantasies" are at the same time female sexual fantasies. Athletic builds, intelligent, strong, successful, etc.
And that is ultimately my point: what is often called "male power fantasies" could just as well be called female sexual fantasies. And mind that doesn't mean it is necessarily true, mainly because traits are often exaggerated in games or other forms of entertainment. However the traits which are being exaggerated are traits considered attractive. (And the same goes for females being presented as male sexual fantasies. A lot of people don't like huge breasts however those fantasies are too often portrayed with huge breasts) And i ultimately think that using the "male power fantasy" card in this context is actually quite intellectually dishonest. It's just a cheap way to be able to present the situation in a male-centric manner. As if the female fantasies were irrelevant and had no impact.
But the theories, which fields like behavioral biology spawn, are based on the path evolution has taken. Not the ones which it should have taken. Usually how it works is that they look at how things are and how they changed and than try to see if there are reasonable biological explanations for it.
Well there are studies and experiments which can explain that particular phenomenon. However last time i mentioned them it made someone feel kind of offended due to the implications. So i'll just skip that one.
Agreed. Also, as a quick aside, I don't remember feeling that all the men were being sexually objectified in Fist of the North Star when their shirts flew off every two seconds. I've never really understood how it's fine for men to be shirtless all the time but if a woman shows a bit of clevage then suddenly we are all horrible pigs for seeing a part of some breasts.GZGoten said:
People need to stop trying to apply real world rules to art, otherwise we're going to have to start going to art galleries and covering up all the naked ladies. Not the cocks, though, because women hate seeing naked men, at all times.
Hate it!
Lets be honest - the Sun shines, birds sing and Japanese developers sell T'n'A to hormone-riddled teenagers because hormone-riddled teenagers, generally speaking, like T'n'A.
They've been doing it for year after year and the teens of each generation keep eating it up, Western developers do it too.
Supplying young adult males with jiggling norks has been a business staple for decades, in the games industry and elsewhere.
It's a license to print money.
And when you're a teenager you don't think too hard about the "why?" etc. because you're hypnotised by the boobies, I hold my hand up - DOA 2 on the PS2 with the age setting turned up to 99 was great fun.
And no, I did not find it objectifies women or degrading them - I didn't care about that, I was just admiring a nice pair of funbags while I beat that asshole AI Ryu Hyabusa into a wall.
That said, now that I am no longer a teenager, I do prefer more sensible female (and male) characters in my videogames.
Dragon Age 2's Lady Hawke is a good example of that. (romps with Isabella not withstanding!)
They've been doing it for year after year and the teens of each generation keep eating it up, Western developers do it too.
Supplying young adult males with jiggling norks has been a business staple for decades, in the games industry and elsewhere.
It's a license to print money.
And when you're a teenager you don't think too hard about the "why?" etc. because you're hypnotised by the boobies, I hold my hand up - DOA 2 on the PS2 with the age setting turned up to 99 was great fun.
And no, I did not find it objectifies women or degrading them - I didn't care about that, I was just admiring a nice pair of funbags while I beat that asshole AI Ryu Hyabusa into a wall.
That said, now that I am no longer a teenager, I do prefer more sensible female (and male) characters in my videogames.
Dragon Age 2's Lady Hawke is a good example of that. (romps with Isabella not withstanding!)
I think you're missing my point. It's not only that I wouldn't want to put the effort into being like that, I outright wouldn't want to be that. I wouldn't even fantasize about having a lot of the qualities that some of my female friends would be attracted to. Heck, if you're trying to hackney evolution into this how about this rationalization? Men desire to be strong and intelligent because they give them an improved chance of surviving and passing along their genes. This would also apply to the female gender, there's just a large societal pressure for girls to be lacking in muscles (yet thin) and stupid.generals3 said:
Actually you kind of hit the nail on the head there of how these things manifest. People want to be considered extremely attractive just without the effort. Pretty much they want to be considered attractive as they are. You can see this come up in media all the time, average looking (or occasionally below average looking) guy finds a very attractive looking girl who eventually falls for him. You just never see the flip side unless she's "plain" in the sense that she's an attractive actress whose wearing glasses and frumpy clothing.
Sure there is probably also desires to be attractive, but I don't see any rationalization for every aspect of a power fantasy to be bundled into being attractive. As I said above, more than anything there's a desire to have the opposite sex attracted to you rather than to be that. To further support this, look at Kratos. He's so commonly used in these power fantasy debates, but he's really not attractive to any woman that I've met.
Yet he still gets the girls, because that's what's a part of the power fantasy
I'm talking about the difference between saying "People still have these traits because they're useful for promoting their genes" and "People will have these traits because they're useful for promoting their genes". One explains already existing traits, and the other tries to try to prove they exist. Regardless, neither add anything to this discussion.
Studies can be bad or good, this much is obvious when you look at how many give conflicting results. The worst I'll do if I see a study is disagree with it
A couple of things i'd like to add:The Almighty Aardvark said:
First: something i edited in and you probably missed because you were typing your answer before i edited it:
"And that is ultimately my point: what is often called "male power fantasies" could just as well be called female sexual fantasies. And mind that doesn't mean it is necessarily true, mainly because traits are often exaggerated in games or other forms of entertainment. However the traits which are being exaggerated are traits considered attractive. (And the same goes for females being presented as male sexual fantasies. A lot of people don't like huge breasts however those fantasies are too often portrayed with huge breasts)"
Second: Not every power fantasy is the power fantasy. Sometimes they just exaggerate one trait and say "there you have it, now fantasize". If anything those are just secondary fantasies. It is not about fantasizing being the person but fantasizing about one of his traits (or what he achieves)(unless we're talking about being the person in the setting in which he's put, in which case obviously things get messy considering you can't actually apply Real Life rules than). And that trait is in most situations a trait liked by women.
Lest we not forget the skull nestled tenderly inside her bosom. I'm not particularly fond of the appearances of any of the characters, but I agree, their appearances were at least designed with some purpose in mind. Every aspect of the sorceresses' appearance is clearly designed to appeal to guy's rampant sexual desires (Said in jest, myself and most guys I know are not beset with uncontrollable lust)Sabitsuki said:Yes, thank you for drawing some attention to this overlooked detail because it is details like that which is where the real problem stems for me.The Almighty Aardvark said:Wow... the sorceress is even worse in that one. Is everybody noticing the placement of the staff there? I can't believe people are trying to turn this into a power fantasy or draw a false equivalence to guys. Or maybe there's some vast reservoir of male characters in games grinding their ass and groin against objects that I've completely missed out on.Kopikatsu said:
Do people even realize what it means to equate this and muscular game characters under power fantasies? Apparently a guy's power fantasy is to be strong and powerful, while a girl's is to be something that a guy would lust after.
The mere presence of large breasts is not what I take issue with. It is the positioning and impression the character gives.
She's bent over with her posterior posed in the direction of the viewer. Her staff positioned between her butt, emphasizing the curve of each cheek. All while her chest hangs in such a way that it threatens to spill out of her low, low, very freaking low cut top; and she's stuffing a skeleton's head into her cleavage because, because necromancy? All of this because what exactly? This isn't even getting into her actual gameplay animations. I have not seen her in a single pose that does not involve her thrusting out her chest as much as possible and gratuitous amounts of jiggling.
You can look at the other characters and get some sort of meaningful impression from them.
The knight is a strong and steady iron juggernaut with his grim hunched over pose and raised shield.
The dwarf stands as an unarmored combatant, weapon raised in a proud and grandiose stance showing a broad and fearless strength.
The elf is positioned in such a way to imply she isn't going to be standing there for long. She is comparatively petite, giving the impression of someone who is agile and prefers to fight away from the action.
You get no such meaningful feeling from the Sorceress, her presentation has no correlation to what she is when it comes to adventuring like her colleagues. She is not being presented as a woman of terrifying magical prowess regardless of her shapely body. As it is, her character does not attempt to be anything but sex appeal.
EDIT: I apparently need to read these closer, you indeed did not forget the skull nestled within her bosom
Yeah I mean, the female barbarian is technically scantily clad but it's 1-1 with her male counterpart. The other girl is pretty well clothed. It's pretty much just the sorceress that's being unnecessarily sexualized. 1 of the 3? That's not bad.Kopikatsu said:All of the Dragon's Crown characters are...pretty out there, I gotta say.
I do like how the Barbarian classes pretty much have the same amount of cloth.
Also, why can't a character be sexual or even outright eye candy without the game being "sexist?"
Sometimes girls LIKE to dress slutty. Sometimes girls just outright ARE slutty.
I only bring this up because the sorceress is nothing but eye candy. To try to argue she isn't is disingenuous. But she's one character. If all the female characters were huge sluts like dead or alive there's a little bit more room for debate there, but calling this game sexist implies that a game is not even allowed to have a sexualized female character without being labelled as sexist. Making every female character in a game an excuse to show off jiggle physics is immature, but I think pretending that women are NEVER sexualized ever or never sexualize themselves is just as immature in a different way.
And that's not to say that there's no room for immature tit-fests either. I think people are quick to correlate sexualization with Misogyny when really these things don't hurt anybody. I'll understand if women don't see the appeal in it, but if the developers want to pander to a male demographic that's their prerogative.