The "fun-shooters" return. But why would anyone want that?

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irani_che

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hell yeah

games are meant to be impressions of reality.
Any super realistic COD you play is really just pretending to want to be ultra-realistic.
Otherwise you would be downed from the first bullet that hit you and the game would force u to lie their while you died slowly from that stray bullet to your stomach.
Or any attack on earth would be more like Skyline than Halo.
Stop whinging and go have some ultra-violence fun
 

veloper

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JourneyThroughHell said:
veloper said:
JourneyThroughHell said:
Well, honestly, I think that DNF looks about as fun as repeatedly punching yourself in the fact and that everyone who really wants those shooters back doesn't really remember them that well, and that Bulletstorm was only fun to me because of its smooth, very CoD-like controls.

But I'm a CoD guy. If the stylistics of Bulletstorm or the gameplay of DNF appeal to you, that's fine and dandy. I'll stick to my super-realistic, super-serious shooters myself.

Hell, Serious Sam is actually fun as shit.
Serious Sam basicly is a Duke Nukem clone, so that makes no sense.
I'm only judging by the gameplay videos I've seen of DNF and the twenty or so minutes I've played of Serious Sam.

I can't judge DNF effectively, that's why I said it "looks about as fun as...".

They don't look that similar to me, but what do I know?
Both squared jawed heros, fighting hordes of aliens all by themselves. Silly oneliners, colorful game design, oversized weapons, huge inventories, fast movement, no cover system, emphasis on sidestepping attacks, no iron-sights, precision = skill with the mouse.
 

Outright Villainy

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TimeLord said:
I think it's more that shooters have become generic nowadays.

Yawn.... Shooting Terrorists.

Yawn.... Shooting power armoured space marines.

I want to shoot aliens in the balls with overpowered, oversized weapons!
Exactly. Spice it up.

These games, the so called serious ones, I play them for fun. People play them for fun. They're taking themselves way too seriously. I want my shooters to be the equivalent of an eighties Arnold Schwarzenegger film, not a po faced bourne knock off. (see: Quantum of solace.)

And no one is saying every game should be silly, or we should abandon progress. We have Bioshock and the like, and the gaming world is a better place for it, but you can only gain by having more diversity, which is looking pretty fucking sparse in the fps genre right now.
 

Netrigan

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Zannah said:
So between bulletstorm, Duke nukem, and the upcoming serious sam sequel, throughout lots of threads, people on here have been celebrating the return of the so called 'fun-shooters'. A somewhat misleading term, that refers to the kind of fps we had before there was half-life, before there was Modern Warfare, before there was halo. The kind of fps we had before such games started to have stories beyond "demons / aliens / nazis over there, kill they ass". The kind of game we had in times where going into a room, having all doors close, and defeat x waves of enemies was considered clever level design, especially when it happened five thousand times per level, with nothing else.
In short: The kind of fps we had, before fps became any good.
So today, we have games where you walk into a room, have all the doors close, and have to listen to two NPCs slowly explain what you need to kill next.

I love modern shooters and I welcome more of them, but I do think the more fun/action oriented games of the past have a place next to them, because there are some things that haven't improved over the earlier version. Such as...

1) Constant disruption of action with inconsequential plot points. Whether it's being locked in a room having to listen to two scientists talk about a reactor that is about to blow up, wrestling camera control away from you to introduce you to a new enemy class, or having to listen to a commander officer explain the finer points of the mission before he's dramatically gunned down. Modern games just don't have the same flow. It's not a huge problem on first playthroughs since you have no idea what is and isn't important, but attempting to replay modern shooters will result in a whole lot more of "come on, already" as you wait impatiently for the NPCs to just shut the fuck up already.

2) Less imagination on display. Having to craft a proper story means that you have to explain all the elements in the story. The standard shooter arsenal has been fairly unchanged since 1993's Doom. This has less to do with realism than simple story immersion. If you're making a Western FPS then you've just limited the number of weapons to a handful. If you want to give the character Wild, Wild West style gadgets or just go sci-fi, you now have to fully flesh that out. In the past, you could have just given someone a bolo rifle with minimal explanation. These days, there must be a reason.

Same thing with enemy types. In the past, they just came up with all sorts of weird shit to toss in the weapon and didn't bother explaining why all these creatures are working together. These days, you have to craft some sort of back story. So you end up with a bunch of boring militia types over and over and over and over and over again. Oh, wait, this guy is different, instead of wearing a green uniform and shooting an assault rifle, he wears a brown uniform and shoots a shotgun.

3) Shooting shit is fun. One of the reasons why I enjoy Call Of Duty is that enemy soldiers go down quickly. One of the problems that started creeping into the genre with the introduction of the true 3D shooter (1995's Quake) is that games were reliant on fewer, tougher enemies. In Gears Of War, I have to shoot the standard issue grunt several times in the head with an assault rifle to kill them. Sure, this gives their AI a chance to show off, but it does slow down the game a lot.

In throw-back shooters, the games are designed for a lot of one-shot kills. Serious Sam has some amazingly tough enemies you have to dispatch, but they also gave you a cannon which can dispatch multiple bad-guys with one charged-up shot. Bulletstorm actually has the tough enemy design, but disguises it by letting you play with the enemy (they're tough enough to survive getting tossed about a bit, because tossing them about a bit is what makes the game interesting). The goal is outwitting a semi-brain-dead opponent (see all games that feature so-called "intelligent" AI), but in defeating scores of brain-dead opponents. For all you "tactical" guys out there, try clearing a courtyard in Serious Sam without a firm grasp of the game's tactics... only there's no hiding in a corner while your health recharges. You have to make a run for their health kit while rockets are raining down on you.

Conclusion) Moving forward often leaves valuable things behind. Mario went 3D, but still goes back to 2D every so often because the two styles are so different. Same is true of first person shooters. There are three games that changed everything: Quake, Half-Life, and Halo. Quake introduced the slower combat against tougher enemies dynamic (originally a technological limitation, but it opened the door for better AI), Half-Life integrated the story into the game-play, and Halo changed a lot of the core game dynamics (limiting weapon slots and health recharging). All of these things are positive changes, but every single one of them gets in the way of enjoyable game play mechanics of earlier shooters.

A game exactly like Doom will never happen again... at least not as a AAA game. But I think a lot of modern games can learn a lot from studying it and trying to recapture what has been lost. Things like the way the sound cues, level design, and AI combined to create areas where the unexpected could happen Such as when you're navigating a maze and you can hear an enemy is active... but the enemy is like a marble in one of those maze puzzles, unable to get to you until your movement frees it leading to a monster attacking you in unexpected locations. You just turn a corner and there he is in your face. Don't think a game has captured that sort of feeling since, mostly because all of those elements have been replaced. Mazes went out of vogue with true 3D, enemies are activated only when they're ready to attack you, and sound cues exist to remove tension by letting you know when you're safe.

Make no mistake, modern games can learn a lot from those older games.
 

JourneyThroughHell

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veloper said:
Both squared jawed heros, fighting hordes of aliens all by themselves. Silly oneliners, colorful game design, oversized weapons, huge inventories, fast movement, no cover system, emphasis on sidestepping attacks, no iron-sights, precision = skill with the mouse.
Uhhh...

That's every old-school shooter this thread describes, ever.

If you exclude "colourful game design", even Daikatana falls under that.

And that game is pretty different.
 

icame

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Note 2 words in your title "Fun Returns."

Thats what I want, that's what I'm getting. I'm tired of the hundreds of copies of halo and COD. Those games weren't good originally, and the games that ape them aern't good either. I want me some good times. When I want a fantastic story and characters, I'll go play half life 2 (Best game ever.), when I want to have a damn good time, I'll play duke nukem forever.

(Other thoughts) Why can't they both exist...
 

mrF00bar

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Your opinion on the 'good old games' obviously is different to everyone else's, I for one am looking forward to these games because its mindless fun. I always preferred the game play off old shooters to the new ones, it was and is still more fun to me, hopefully these new versions will still be as much fun to play.
 

ryai458

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Nighthief said:
Because I'm tired of games that take themselves so fucking seriously.
Your so right thats why Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Dragon Age and many other serious games suck, right?
 

Imbechile

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Because a """"realistic"""" gritty grey/brown shooter where a Marcus Fenix clone protagonist werbaly wawes his dick in my face is not my vison of a good shooter :-(
 

Frankster

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It's good to have diversity in games, recently only certain kinda tastes have been cartered for, some of us just yearn for silly over the top action and genuinely enjoy one liners no matter how corny. Depends on the mood one is and there is only so many serious storylines one can take before yearning for something that doesn't quite take itself so seriously.

To use a film analogy, yeah Inception is great and all but every once in a while it's good to watch an arnie flick ;)

Also in reply to OP: nah your comment wasn't sexist but I do know quite a few female gamers eagerly anticipating the duke's return and all the machoism that comes with it.
I don't understand it either, just saying it's not a guys only thing xP
 

SinisterGehe

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Nighthief said:
Because I'm tired of games that take themselves so fucking seriously.
That sums up my opinion about this subject. Specially on FPS side of things.
I think the most enjoyable thing that happened to FPS genre was CTF and TF2, they were fun! They were supposed to be fun, they weren't supposed even to try to be serious.
 

Assassin Xaero

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Zannah said:
Now, on the off chance of sounding sexist, maybe you need to be a guy to like that kind of games, but seriously - abandoning the story in favor of un-funny one-liners doesn't work.
Have you played Painkiller? Probably not or you would know that abandoning the story in favor of game play that is fun, does work. Sure, for some games a story makes it better, but the same old generic war shooter clones (Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, Medal of Honor, etc.) don't work for some of us. The days of Goldeneye, Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem, and other shooters were people were constantly moving instead of camping noobs are over, sadly enough...

ryai458 said:
Nighthief said:
Because I'm tired of games that take themselves so fucking seriously.
Your so right thats why Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Dragon Age and many other serious games suck, right?
Dragon Age was horrid, and Mass Effect is too boring for me to get into because they talk way too damn much. Haven't played RDR, but it looks interesting. So yeah, if you throw game play out the windows for serious a 1,000,000 page script of dialog, the game does suck.
 

Imbechile

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ryai458 said:
Nighthief said:
Because I'm tired of games that take themselves so fucking seriously.
Your so right thats why Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Dragon Age and many other serious games suck, right?
I don't know if it's sarcasam or not, I'm tired, but I have no problem with RPGs taking themselves seriously, but with shooters I really have a problem.
 

Netrigan

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[
veloper said:
JourneyThroughHell said:
Well, honestly, I think that DNF looks about as fun as repeatedly punching yourself in the fact and that everyone who really wants those shooters back doesn't really remember them that well, and that Bulletstorm was only fun to me because of its smooth, very CoD-like controls.

But I'm a CoD guy. If the stylistics of Bulletstorm or the gameplay of DNF appeal to you, that's fine and dandy. I'll stick to my super-realistic, super-serious shooters myself.

Hell, Serious Sam is actually fun as shit.
Serious Sam basicly is a Duke Nukem clone, so that makes no sense.
Serious Sam is the bastard love-child of Doom Guy and Duke Nukem... with Unreal acting as the mid-wife.

Balls to the wall action of Doom, the humor of Duke, and the level design of the original Unreal with lots of big, wide-open spaces.
 

ryai458

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Imbechile said:
ryai458 said:
Nighthief said:
Because I'm tired of games that take themselves so fucking seriously.
Your so right thats why Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Dragon Age and many other serious games suck, right?
I don't know if it's sarcasam or not, I'm tired, but I have no problem with RPGs taking themselves seriously, but with shooters I really have a problem.
Yes that was sarcasm, and isn't RDR a shooter?
 

nuba km

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The same reason why people were exited about the A-team movie BECAUSE WE WANT A CHOICE! we don't always want mediocre serious game and then ones in a while a good serious game we want the choice of having mediocre fun games and good fun games as well as serious games.
 

Imbechile

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ryai458 said:
Imbechile said:
ryai458 said:
Nighthief said:
Because I'm tired of games that take themselves so fucking seriously.
Your so right thats why Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Dragon Age and many other serious games suck, right?
I don't know if it's sarcasam or not, I'm tired, but I have no problem with RPGs taking themselves seriously, but with shooters I really have a problem.
Yes that was sarcasm, and isn't RDR a shooter?
I don't really know, I haven't played it, nor have I seen many gameplay videos
 

Ragsnstitches

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Because sometimes I don't want to watch Citizen Kane or American History X. Sometimes I want to watch Hot Shots: Part Deux or transporter.

This isn't regression. It's an entirely different niche that has been ignored in favour of pseudo-complex plots and poorly developed characters (by and large). Parodies are not an insult, nor do they have to be meaningful. Sometimes they are just entertaining for being a good film/game/book/song with the added humour of a parody.

That said, I ask how one can think the current FPS scene is any good. Sequels of games that have lost their flavour a generation back (and beyond). New ideas that are actually old ideas. Innovation being shat on in favour of competing with COD for biggest dick on the stage. MP being the sole selling point of most games, leaving people who don't want to endure preteen angst and ego strokers in the dirt.

I'm sick of the FPS scene bar a handful of titles (most of which are going back a generation). I question whether adding a bit of levity will cure it, but I like the notion of fleshed out single player experiences. Fuck you multiplayer and your infringing on my hermit ways.

Finally. If you actually played Duke Nukem 3D you wouldn't be saying "before FPS's were good"... that game had more substance in its simplicity then the latest CoD or Halo game had in their convoluted, intelligence mocking, series. Being crude did not diminish that.

The few FPS games worth appreciating in this day and age, does not make up even a quarter of the tripe that spills forth from the industry. The FPS genre is far from being "GOOD". More like stagnant.