The Great Debate. Why 60 over 30?

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Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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The human eye sees at about 60 FPS, and in films the frame rate is just high enough that we don't see the individual frames, and the blur makes up for the rest. With games, there isn't that same motion blur, which makes 30 FPS look awkward. Unless the game has a forced motion blur or doesn't have a large depth-of-field it needs to be as close to what our eyes are used to seeing as possible in order to feel right.
 

fix-the-spade

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Risingblade said:
Apparently film fps and game fps don't match because motion blur doesn't look natural in games while it does in movies. More fps just makes games look and feel smoother.
More to the point film does not render in real time.

Film is a prearranged succession of still images, Games render the world in real time and re-render according to the player's input, the higher the frame rate, the shorter the time gap between an input being made and the response being seen. Since responsiveness (or lack of) is one of the biggest factors in player immersion that makes FPS more important than most player's seem to consciously realise.

Alternatively, as the infamous Quake 3 experiment proved, players with access to a higher FPS win...
 

Bestival

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I also like a higher FPS for those times you enter a bit of a game where shit gets kicked up a notch. Ordos in WoW would be the best example for me currently.
So many people and so many effects, it takes a bit more toll than the usual goings on, and if my ~60 FPS gets kicked down to ~40 FPS because of that, it's not so bad. But if 30 FPS gets kicked down to 10, that's a fair amount more troublesome to me tbh.
 

JettMaverick

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Obviously I was pretty naive to the subject as a whole, this thread has really opened my eyes to the topic and all your input has been really insightful. Thank you guys :)
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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Lilani said:
The human eye sees at about 60 FPS
The human eye does not work at neither 30 [http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html] nor 60 FPS. The human eye [http://amo.net/nt/05-24-01FPS.html] does not work in frames at all. [http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm]
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
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DoPo said:
Lilani said:
The human eye sees at about 60 FPS
The human eye does not work at neither 30 [http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html] nor 60 FPS. The human eye [http://amo.net/nt/05-24-01FPS.html] does not work in frames at all. [http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm]
I'm an animator. I know what frames are, and I know the human mind does not work in frames.

However, frames are in essence a measure of motion over time. Humans do not have an unlimited capacity for perceiving things clearly in motion--stuff can move so fast that all our mind can only interpret a blur, if it can interpret anything at all. So frames per second may not accurately reflect how the human eye and brain actually work, but it can at the very least act as a rudimentary reference for how fast the mind can process visual stimuli and at what point things begin to blur.
 

The Abhorrent

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As a general rule, 60 FPS games run smoother than 30 FPS. Nothing about responsiveness, but it feels more consistent and solid for whatever reason.

I've seen the argument before that this is due frame-rate stutter; or more specifically, relative frame-rate stutter. Both frame-rates are subject to slow-down, the difference is that the average person starts to notice individual frames when it drops below 20 FPS or so (which is below what films and TV run at; but unlike games, those ALWAYS have rock-solid frame-rate); this is plausible for a 30 FPS game to do when under strain, but a 60 FPS game needs to be under a LOT more strain for it to drop below that threshold.

Both 30 FPS and 60 FPS games slow down at points... you're just much less likely to notice this happening on a 60 FPS game, while it can happen surprisingly frequently in a 30 FPS game (especially if poorly optimized).
 

DoPo

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Lilani said:
However, frames are in essence a measure of motion over time. Humans do not have an unlimited capacity for perceiving things clearly in motion
Yes, however, I was objecting to the statement that humans see at 60 FPS. They simply do not. FPS is a measure but not a measure of how people see.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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DoPo said:
Lilani said:
However, frames are in essence a measure of motion over time. Humans do not have an unlimited capacity for perceiving things clearly in motion
Yes, however, I was objecting to the statement that humans see at 60 FPS. They simply do not. FPS is a measure but not a measure of how people see.
And I agreed with you and clarified what I meant by that. I simply took the liberty of assuming that most people were aware of the fact that the human eyes aren't camera lenses and that the brain is not a camera.
 

Isra

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I don't notice a huge difference in visuals between 30 and 60 fps. I'm happy to watch movies at 24 frames. My big problem with it only comes into play when input is part of the equation. Mouse input just sucks at 30 fps. Every single freelook game I've played that was capped at 30 frames made my mouse feel like a cinder block.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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MrFalconfly said:
Well, as I see it 30fps vs 60fps is like a Ford Mustang GT vs a Ferrari F12-berlinetta.



Sure I'd prefer the Ferrari, since it objectively is the best, but that doesn't preclude me from enjoying the Mustang.
i dont know, 30 FPS is not really like its good, its just the BARE MINIMUM, is like, a mustang GT compared to a Fiat 1, the Fiat is a serviceable car, but far from ideal

now 60 FPS and anything higher, there your car comparison works, 60 FPS is pretty great, but anything higher is obviously going to be better
 

DoPo

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Lilani said:
I simply took the liberty of assuming that most people were aware of the fact that the human eyes aren't camera lenses and that the brain is not a camera.
I've seen people make the following claims:
- eyes work at 24 FPS ("because of movies, duh")
- eyes work at 30 FPS ("it's the minimum games need, everything else is irrelevant, duh")
- eyes work at somewhere around 40 and 50 FPS but not as high as 60 FPS ("Because 30 is the minimum but more is better. 60 is overproviding, if there happens to be a framerate drop" or some similar bullshit)

More than one person has claimed it. There are multiple videos (some posted in this thread) and articles devoted to dispelling the illusion of "eyes see X FPS only". I think that is evidence enough that clearly not enough people know it.
 

zumbledum

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JettMaverick said:
The concept of the argument deludes me, I used to work in film, and having worked in mediums where films are shot in 23.9/25 fps upto 30 for PAL screening, i always prefered a lower frame rate, because the progression of frames feels more movie like (Not like.. sluggish 1-10fps because of lower level hardware) but I want to know what justifies the reasoning to complain if a game is 30fps, and not 60. I'm not asking for a cussing match, & i appreciate arguments on both sides, im more curious as to why.

this link explains a lot
http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

given the definition, lighting, movement, type and refresh rate of normal monitors 30 fps looks ugly , feels laggy and in high precision games like fighters and fps actually makes you less accurate.

on a console playing on a big tv at a large distance when your gimped with a gamepad to start with you might honestly not notice or care about the 30/60/120 debate. but unless your sight impaired theres just no debate on PC
 

Not Lord Atkin

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30 FPS is perfectly playable and is just fine with most games, with an exception of a couple heavily reflex-reliant genres. The issue is that with a lower framerate, the delay between you pressing a button and the corresponding action appearing on screen is doubled. It is still not low enough to cause significant issues and I tend to go for 30 FPS when fiddling with the settings on my computer, so I don't exactly subscribe to the 60-fps hysteria. In fact, I was for a long time on the side of the debate that claims framerate is mostly irrelevant as long as it doesn't drop below 30.

HOWEVER, there is a very large number of people to whom the difference is important and to whom the (even slight) change in responsiveness does make a world of difference. And even I, regardless of the fact that I find 30 FPS perfectly acceptable, have to admit that 60 fps does look better and does play better. I do not find the difference noticeable enough to matter in most genres but many people do and I have to respect that.

The thing is, in order to raise FPS, you have to sacrifice some of the graphical fidelity. And this is where the argument gets complicated. Prioritising the boost in responsiveness against the quality of graphics is a matter of personal preference and I do not think that it is possible to chose one approach without alienating the part of the audience that would prefer the other. I rarely agree with Totalbiscuit on anything but he hammered this one point home the other day - the best approach in this situation is giving the choice to the player. Let them switch between a lower setting that runs on 60 FPS and a higher setting that run on 30 FPS. This is something that is very much a given on PCs and there is very little reason for the option to not be available on consoles as well.
 

Baron Teapot

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Frames per second are important. I've been running games at over 60FPS for about ten years. It's noticeable when it's lower.

Each frame your game loop will update itself as much as possible. The GPU will render the scene just once.

During the update, input is polled, physics calculations are performed, collision-detection, artificial intelligence and so-on.

PS4: "I can do all of this easily 60 times every second!"
XB1: "I can only do it 30 times every second. Gosh, I'm out of breath."

With the PS4 being able to easily handle 60FPS, it's saying "games may not be taking full advantage of me right now, but there's room for improvement!" and that's a good thing - it's like having an elastic waistband on your favorite pair of pants.

I've been playing Resident Evil 4 HD Edition on Steam lately and some of the animations are quite jerky, presumably because they're ported from a system that expects a certain locked frame-rate, but my PC is running it significantly faster, and the result means you get zombies stumbling "slowly" towards you at two or three times their regular speed, like when you emulate a really old Amiga game on a modern PC or something.
 

Smooth Operator

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Ok let's break it down again then:
The human eye does not see frames it sees an endless stream of light hitting it's sensor array, and that sensor array has it limits. Our sensors need a certain accumulation of light before an object is clearly visible so when objects move the light coming from then will distribute across our view and as it gets faster the form gets an ever decreasing pronunciation, i.e. speed blurs objects up to the point we can't spot their presence at all.
But despite all that we never have a cut off moment where we would stop getting new information.

Movies are captured in a similar way, this time the light is captured with a digital sensor array or film that also has limits as far as light/data accumulation goes. Objects that move fast will again leave a fainter trace of their form across the scene. Difference comes in where movies do need a cut off point, they need to store their data picture by picture for the tech to work and there we get the frames.
So 24FPS was worked out to look smooth enough, that makes each picture stay statically on display for 42ms, sounds like a small amount of time but compared to our normal vision that has 0ms of static pictures this is quite the gap.
Luckily the shortfalls of sensors/film is exactly what makes movies so compatible, that 42ms picture might be static but in the time to make it near 42ms of incoming light was recorded, so all the movement in that time frame actually was captured and we lost very little information.

Games however work from the complete opposite end, renderings do not capture ongoing scenery they create the scene from scratch each moment at a time. And every frame they create has come from an absolute zero standstill of the scene, so if you render at 24 FPS that 42ms static image is not an accumulation of anything between fames, you completely lost the ongoings for the past 42ms... which again is a minute time frame but to our vision that is a gigantic information gap.
So we go up to 30FPS which makes a 33.3ms information gap, at 60FPS we get a 16.6ms gap, 120FPS down to 8.3ms, 240FPS - 4.2ms, so on and so forth.
But wait, my monitor doesn't swap images that fast so why would we even go there? Because most game engines have their mechanics locked to visual frames, then the information gap isn't just in your visual part it also affects input.
At 30FPS there are 33,3ms gaps where the game has no clue what you are telling it, then the game jumps to the next moment and then you need to counter compensate for whatever it missed/got wrong. In slow games with slow control schemes that gap is mostly covered over by the games inherit delayed response, but as the need for precision and speed goes up that gap becomes and unavoidable hindrance to the entire experience.
Does 60 FPS then fix all the problems then... no it just makes them half as bad as before, and 120 would make it one quarter as bad.
 

J Tyran

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Dec 15, 2011
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zumbledum said:
on a console playing on a big tv at a large distance when your gimped with a gamepad to start with you might honestly not notice or care about the 30/60/120 debate. but unless your sight impaired theres just no debate on PC
Plus playing with a TV in the first place gimps the experience anyway, even the fastest responding TVs are far slower than a budget monitor, huge grey to grey pixel response and long image processing times mean you can be behind as many as 15-30 frames behind anyway no matter the FPS the device is pushing out.

Baron Teapot said:
PS4: "I can do all of this easily 60 times every second!"
XB1: "I can only do it 30 times every second. Gosh, I'm out of breath."

With the PS4 being able to easily handle 60FPS, it's saying "games may not be taking full advantage of me right now, but there's room for improvement!" and that's a good thing - it's like having an elastic waistband on your favorite pair of pants..
Actually the PS4 can't handle it, one or two mediocre looking games have got close (not locked either) but everything else has needed compromises in either AA or resolution to get that high and some games are simply not bothering. Even as far as shovelling bullshit like they want a game to look "filmic".