The issue of "Mens Rights"

[Vault101]

snip

These programs were established to counteract the disparity of women and minorities in the workplace. Not because the people weren't capable but because the people in charge ie white men were more likely to pick someone similar to them for positions.

You are assuming that the system is above board when the whole reason these programs were established in the first place was because they weren't. Remember people who are in charge now (not even when those plans were started)... Lets say the men at the top are 60-70 so they were born and grew up in the 1950's and 60's...those people are likely to still have prejudices towards women or minorities getting high jobs in their company. There is also the issue of the 'Old boys' network who go to privileged schools and create elite cliques. This isn't a conspiracy it happens.

I'm sure those programs will be phased out eventually with changing attitudes but at the moment I would say they are there to prevent possible underhand or even subconscious goings on.

what I find most frustrating is whenever you read thease angry rants (online you can guess)
one of the FIRST things you hear is "women want to be treated same..but want special treatment! women are out to trap a man in marrage, make him pay for everything then take half! women are vintictive bitches! they are shallow they only care about how much you make"

and I'm like "no...no..No...NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!, HELLO!! Im right here, I exist and I dont want ANY of thease things!" but no...they dont want to listen to reason

*sigh* I dont want special treatment because of my gender..in fact I somtimes find it odd how often some men will hold the door open for me, or let me enter/exit the elevator first (which I find a little awkward if they are closer to the door..so thease days I dont pause I just go firt because its awkward otherwise) AND I say thankyou like anyother reasonable person

 

[Kakashi on crack]

/snip

Check these guys [http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/] out. They certainly don't seem to be "fucktards."

Like I said, the moderate ones are typically buried XD

Continuing to look over it, but thanks for the link

 

[Vault101]

Women definitely DO have rights that men just don't have. Not legally, but still...

A good example is being sexually open/sexually forward. Women can easily ask men back to their place in a wide variety of ways and situations and be simply seen as quirky, outgoing, and desirable, whereas if men do the same thing they apear to be predatory jerks.

I'm sure there are still several problems on the other side of the scale, and I definitely think we're a lot closer than we used to be to equality. However, we won't be truly equal until the day when a white, drunk man can smack a similarly drunk black woman at a bar with no less, and no more, consequences than if he'd just hit another white dude. That's what equality means, but would you bet against the racism or the sexism card being played?

I'm not really sure we'll ever make it there, to be honest. It's sure a hell of a lot better than it used to be, though.

not sure about your first point..but that said I imagine this varys ALOT

I would have thourght it was less acceptable for women to be promiscuious..unlike guys

 

[Vault101]

Also, don't forget that in most countries women are exempt from conscription, and in most cases DIRECT military Combat.

............................

AND?

whats your point?..is this a good/bad thing? because there has been debate over allowing women on the front lines

but if your using that as some kind of example as to how good women have it...no, I dont buy it.

Thats like me pointing out how many white CEO's who are men, to show how good they have it..and I would hazard a guess your not a white CEO

 

[ShadowKatt]

How silly. Men don't have rights. Especially white men. Or christian men. Or white christian men especially. Why should the supremely, omnipotently, and untouchably privilaged have rights?

 

[Dense_Electric]

What the fuck is this shit about white males having nothing to complain about? Just off the top of my head, here's a list of ways in which all men or white men specifically are discriminated against (in the US at least), merely for the crime of having a penis:

- Higher insurance rates, because the fact that there are dumbass boy racers somehow means I am more likely to get into an accident, or the fact that more men have hazardous jobs somehow means I am going to die younger.

- Have to register for the draft, which is unconstitutional in the first place (it violates the Thirteenth Amendment about mandatory servitude), but doubly so because it grants one group of citizens (women) special protection over another. I will have it known that I never registered (I'm now age 20 and haven't heard anything about it), and if it ever shows up it's going to get curb stomped.

- More likely to get shafted by affirmative action. Many places have minimum requirements that they must have X number or women or X number of minorities, but few must have X number of men or X number of whites. And don't get me started on custody cases

- Have to pay for some things women get for free. This mostly occurs at clubs - at many of which women either don't have to pay to get in or don't have to pay for drinks. See also why Dense doesn't go clubbing (and if he does it's at a Dense-approved location where they don't pull this shit).

- "Can't hit women," even in defense, but they're sure as shit allow to beat the hell out of us for the slightest infraction. Of course I would submit we should all just keep our hands to ourselves, but if we're going to start a slugfest then no one should be "able" to be hit against their will (and if anyone ever does any harder than "playfully," I'm going to knock their teeth down their throat).

- Are negatively portrayed in the media sometimes as blubbering idiots, whereas women are smart, intelligent and beautiful. But while women complaining about being objectified is valid, men complaining about being portrayed as idiots is not.

- And best of all, if a woman complains about anything that effects here, she gets all kinds of support and positive feedback, sometimes even legal action. If a man complains, he's told to "man up."

Do women still face discrimination? Absolutely. But don't sit here and insinuate that men somehow don't, because we're going to have a problem.

 

[Dastardly]

Then what is your point?

"Individuals are occasionally prejudiced against other individuals" isn't exactly an eye-opening observation.

It is, actually, to many people. My exact point is that individuals are victims of prejudice, and those include individuals or all races and genders. The problem is that people disregard prejudice against white males, because there's a sense that they "deserve" it for what other white males have done in the past.

White males (in our current day and age) are not prejudiced against in anything near the same way minorities and women have been in the past. If all you were doing is pointing out that sometimes people are treated unfairly, I have to ask why.

Because there are people that insist that white males are not treated unfairly. Just like men who are victims of domestic abuse are told they're "not really being abused" because "a woman can't hurt a man as much as a man can hurt a woman." And white males who are turned down for scholarships because they aren't minorities or females are told, "It's because of past injustice," when those white males did nothing to perpetrate that injustice.

It doesn't have to be "as bad" or "as often" as what the other groups. That's not what these guys are claiming. They're claiming that prejudice against white males is as wrong as prejudice against anyone else, and they're being told to shut up about it.

White men are not judged that way, and they are wrong for thinking that they are.

Perhaps not by you. I'm not sure where you live, but wow -- it must be great. Where I am, I can't even give a black student a low grade for failing to even attempt a test without the parents calling me "racist." And do I have any recourse? No, because if I argue with them, then I'm an angry racist.

 

[WanderingBiscuits]

Well , i believe in equality . Woman and men SHOULD have the same rights. Unfortunatly , Men get away with too many things woman can't and vice versa . I think personally that men's rights group ( and i think havig a group for mens rights is a good thing as long as they don't degrade woman ) and women rights groups , should merge together and become a human right group . The problem with men and women rights is tht each side is going to vouche for themselves which will inevitably lead to an imbalance .

Women want more rights , thats okay as long as they don't surpass men and vice versa .

Thoughts mirrored immediately in the first post of the thread. Thank you early ninja. :]

 

[Frungy]

To my mind NuclearShadow hits the high points:

Men who commit the same crime as a woman averagely gets a larger punishment.

Add to this that female criminals often escape any punishment at all, skewing the crime statistics hugely. I'm not talking about a woman crying and getting out of a parking ticket here, I'm talking about much more serious stuff, like assault. A man slaps a woman and its a crime, a woman slaps a man and "he asked for it" in some way and trying to file criminal charges will get you laughed at.

Domestic abuse cases that involve a woman being the abuser is not taken seriously by courts.

I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine about this very point. Domestic violence (DV) was the topic of her dissertation and she asked me to read over it. I noticed that the statistics quoted seemed odd, with the crime stats showing that only 10% of victims were male, but self-report surveys (a very reliable form of research actually) reported 25% of the victims were male. ... and yet the research ignored this and proceeded to exclusively discuss women as the victims of DV. I asked her about this, since ignoring 25% of the victims of a crime is ... well, it's frikkin' 25%, that's not a small percentage! She discussed it with her supervisor, who excused it because apparently the injuries suffered by male victims are less serious (although there's research from ERs that contradicts this). To my mind this is complete bullshit since her dissertation went on at great length about how it wasn't just the physical injury but rather the psychological damage caused by living with an abusive partner that was most damaging. ... and this person is studying to be a social worker. What I'm getting at here is that they're actually being TRAINED to regard DV against men as not serious.

Females who do acts of rape never ever get taken seriously even if their victim is a child.
Society seems to be sympathetic to the rapist in this case as well. If the victim is male they may as well not even report it.

Oh, this is an old chestnut. A guy gets drunk and wakes up in bed with a strange woman and reports being "raped" to the cops high-5 him and tell him to go home. A women gets drunk and wakes up in bed with a strange man and reports getting "raped" and the guy is arrested faster than you can say Dick Robinson.

Similarly female pedophiles are almost never prosecuted, or if they are then they're normally prosecuted on a lesser charge. There was a horrific case in South Africa with "Advocate Barbie" who sexually assaulted young girls and bought them back for her boyfriend to rape. She got 11 years in total for more than 10 offenses, that's just over 1 year an offense. She almost got off on a "battered woman syndrome" defense.

Finally the big issue for me is a simple one, that the standard of proof required for women to make a complaint against a man are so darned low. A woman makes a complaint and the assumption is that the man is guilty. End of story. Unless you can prove you weren't there or had a spy cam in your pocket recording everything then you're screwed. You can lose your job, your family, and even land in prison simply on the testimony of one bitter and twisted individual. I'm not saying that most or even many women do this, but the sheer powerlessness of any man in this sort of situation is... well, it makes it way too easy for an unscrupulous woman to remove a boss, co-worker or any male she doesn't like. Plus it makes men afraid of women, and this isn't paranoia, it's an acknowledgement of the reality of the absolute power of women, that they can play the "sexual harassment" or "rape" card and there's bugger all you can do to counter it, regardless of how innocent you really are. Even if you do succeed in fighting the charges and somehow get found innocent... well, by then you've lost your job, probably lost your family and friends, and everyone thinks you're a sexual monster... and the woman? Well, she's the poor "victim".

I genuinely am sorry for all the real rape, sexual assault, etc victims out there, but if there's pity going around the majority of it should be reserved for the male victims who arrive at the police station and get told to go home, without counselling, or sympathy or support, not for the female victims who get counselling, support and at least the hope of their assailant being arrested.

 

[Daverson]

I don't think you can really blame activists on either side for anything.

It's not like the feminists are actually responsible for the issues that are affecting men, and I'm relatively certain masculinists don't want to go back to the days marriage involved stuffing women in burlap sacks. Yeah, there's the odd fanatic, but no one really listens to them.

The issue is that a lot of the initial legislation passed for women's rights, while doing its job, was a bit short sighted. The only laws you should need in this regard are simply those against discrimination, anything else is going to bite you in the arse later (and what we're seeing here is the first stages of this arse-biting, the angry growling of an unfed hound, if you will). The core of the issue is that we're all raised to view men in one way, and women in another, before judging people based on their individual merits, and until something's done about this, no amount of legislation is going to fix the issue.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Civalry is discrimination? Are all people on this planet nuts?
People should have equal rights, but i'll treat every person i meet the way i think seems fit for that person.

Uniform behavior against any person without any relation to any social/plotical/economical/biological factors? (Also excludin' your own experiences)
We're not some programmed robots.

The only goal the whole concept should have, that everyone has the same chances/rights on a national/global level.

Also: Fuck, that white straight male talk. People are more than that.
You'll get disciminated for: height, hobbies, skin, taste in fashion/music/whatever from diffrent people. Why? Because we've diffrent opinions and with 7 billion people on this planet + the webz you'll always find someone who thinks you're an asshat for doing/likin'/being XYZ.


Also, since when i'm omnipotent and untouchable? Most people are just John/Jane Doe, tryin' to make the best out of their lifes.
You can't generalize that shit. Generalisation are always bad (With that exception


PS:
To the example with the club:
Are you kiddin' me? That's not discirimination thats called free market economy.
I let girls in for free, so more boys will visit my club. More people => More drinks.
The main reason is: "How do i make bigger profit" and not "How can i discriminate man the most".

 

[ms_sunlight]

Finally the big issue for me is a simple one, that the standard of proof required for women to make a complaint against a man are so darned low. A woman makes a complaint and the assumption is that the man is guilty. End of story. Unless you can prove you weren't there or had a spy cam in your pocket recording everything then you're screwed. You can lose your job, your family, and even land in prison simply on the testimony of one bitter and twisted individual.

Myth. If you really believe that, then you should be able to back it up. I doubt you can, because all the statistics I've ever read about this lead to quite the opposite conclusion. (One or two anecdotes, however vivid, do not amount to statistically valid proof.)

I don't know where you are, Frungy, but here in the UK we have a presumption of innocence and every defendant should be given a thorough and professional defense. I'm not saying there aren't exceptional cases where things go wrong, but the prosecution and conviction rate here for rape (for example) is staggeringly low. If anything, women are still not taken seriously enough.

 

[D-Ray]

Did anybody notice the "Before Angry Harry and After Angry Harry" pictures of Hillary Clinton?
lol that is messed up.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Bingo. And on top of all of this, I'd almost guarantee that these same MRAs would be quick to label themselves egalitarians and accuse feminists of being a bunch of man-hating female-chauvinist-sows.

Oh yes, of course. But then, you can almost always pick a racist person by the way they say "I'm not racist, but..."

Also, don't forget that in most countries women are exempt from conscription, and in most cases DIRECT military Combat.

That's true, although the feminists have made progress in that, women are now allowed to serve in many more military roles around the world, and within 5 years, all gender discrimination within the Australian Defence Force will have been removed (or so goes the plan), which is, of course, a big win for Australian feminism.

meh, there is no such thing as men's or women's rights. Or straight's rights or gay's rights or white's rights or blacks right's. If we really are all equal there should just be Human rights.

Yes...and no. That's an important point, but one used both by and against rights groups.

It more or less hinges on the first word of your last sentence. To dismiss rights groups, you omit that word, to support them you include it.

 

[Duskflamer]

One more thing, I hate it when guys complain about how a woman can claim its rape if she was drunk and regrets what she did.

Hey... if the girl regrets what she did, its your fault! YOU mislead her or didn't treat her well. If you were truly honest about your intentions from the outset and carried it through the whole interaction, then she wouldn't regret it. If she was too drunk to make good judgements, then you shouldn't have had sex with her.

If this is the case, would you argue that if the man got drunk and regrets having sex afterward, he can claim the woman raped him?

If not then you're discriminating in favor of women.

 

[Lurchibald]

Huh, apparently being the vast majority of heads of state/board officials/executives, higher pay, and the ability to pee standing up isn't enough for some dudes.

Higher Pay? Let me guess, you've been reading feminist propaganda about the whole "Women earn 77c for every dollar a man makes right? Well, to be frank, that is a load of bull. Women earn the same money for the same work.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html#printMode

(emphasis by me in bold, the whole article isn't quoted, to see the whole article go to the link)

....Feminist hand-wringing about the wage gap relies on the assumption that the differences in average earnings stem from discrimination. Thus the mantra that women make only 77% of what men earn for equal work. But even a cursory review of the data proves this assumption false.

The Department of Labor's Time Use survey shows that full-time working women spend an average of 8.01 hours per day on the job, compared to 8.75 hours for full-time working men. One would expect that someone who works 9% more would also earn more. This one fact alone accounts for more than a third of the wage gap.

Choice of occupation also plays an important role in earnings. While feminists suggest that women are coerced into lower-paying job sectors, most women know that something else is often at work. Women gravitate toward jobs with fewer risks, more comfortable conditions, regular hours, more personal fulfilment and greater flexibility. Simply put, many women?not all, but enough to have a big impact on the statistics?are willing to trade higher pay for other desirable job characteristics.

Men, by contrast, often take on jobs that involve physical labor, outdoor work, overnight shifts and dangerous conditions (which is also why men suffer the overwhelming majority of injuries and deaths at the workplace). They put up with these unpleasant factors so that they can earn more.

Recent studies have shown that the wage gap shrinks?or even reverses?when relevant factors are taken into account and comparisons are made between men and women in similar circumstances. In a 2010 study of single, childless urban workers between the ages of 22 and 30, the research firm Reach Advisors found that women earned an average of 8% more than their male counterparts. Given that women are outpacing men in educational attainment, and that our economy is increasingly geared toward knowledge-based jobs, it makes sense that women's earnings are going up compared to men's....

 

[Faladorian]

Feminists make a angry.
"Men and women aren't equal! We want the same status as them, but we don't want to surrender the advantages we already have. Hey, Bob, hold that door open! Don't you know how to treat a lady?"
They want equality, except where it benefits them, and every man has the right to be angry about that.

That's called supremacy. They want supremacy.