The ME2 Renegade/Paragon Mistake

[Kollega]

I assume people share my feelings (Yahtzee dies at least...) so what would YOU do to fix it? Go back to the old skill based system or what?

(Yahtzee dies at least...)

(Yahtzee dies)

Yahtzee dies

OMG you ruined the plot twist for me! Put that shit in spoiler tags!

Also, people seem stuck on thinking that Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". They are both essentially good (with few exceptions), but the Renegade is more likely to defy authority.

No, Renegade is more likely to be a complete douchebag. Both to authority figures and people in need.

You can play the middle ground if you want, I think that indicates you lack the conviction necessary to survive. You're not supposed to survive. It's a suicide mission.

Why give an option for "happy" ending then? If they wanted to make a point or something, they could have just excluded the option of keeping everyone alive, plain and simple. As it stands, i'm just going to reload the save untill i reach the ideal conclusion. Screw that "hard choices" bullshit, it's only a video game.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I never had this problem and I certainly didn't play as a pure renegade/paragon. In some cases the resulting dialogue is at best hilariously out of place. I suspect the reason I avoided it was simply because I invested points in my passive skill first and completed more than 90% of the game on each of my two play throughs. In the end, I was full paragon and 30 - 40% renegade. Shoving people out windows it would appear is REALLY bad karma.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

How are you being penalized, really? It's not like the first game where charm and intimidate were skills you could invest in and get bonuses for (Store discount, motivated seller). Plus, you had to use the charm and intimidate dialogue to be able to open up more spots for the skill, which kind of forced you to stick to one way rather than do what you want.

Also, people seem stuck on thinking that Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". They are both essentially good (with few exceptions), but the Renegade is more likely to defy authority. That they are both basically good makes effects of using renegade options on the (pre-med bay upgrade) face of Shepard even more ridiculous.

You are penalized because you teammates DIE. You are penalized because Shepard DIES. Can't think of a worse penalty.

I did always think that the Paragon/Renegade options should have been more fleshed out. Sparing the Rachni Queen should have been, in my opinion, a renegade option. After all, you are releasing a possible genocidal insect race upon the galaxy once more. Whilst this turns out to not be the case, the flavor of the month was Rachni=Tyranids or something...

Bioware gave you the freedom to make a choice and reminds you throughout these have consequences, and some of them are bad. If you wanted to be diplomatic, then you must practice diplomacy. Besides, I thought it would be obvious that renegade shepard is not a man (or woman) of diplomatic tendancies but rather swift, decisive action. As a social experiement, just try acting like renegade shepard for a few days and see how many friends want to stick around.

 

[Jenova65]

I personally hate every just about everything Renegade Shepard does, so I'm perfectly fine. I woud prefer the old skill system along with this. It would be the awesomeness of the old skill system without me having to waste points on Charm or intimidate.

Me too, renegade Shepard is a dick! Good Shepard can still be a badass like on Omega between the Quarian and Volus quarrel the paragon interrupt is great.

 

[CommyGingerbreadMan]

How are you being penalized, really? It's not like the first game where charm and intimidate were skills you could invest in and get bonuses for (Store discount, motivated seller). Plus, you had to use the charm and intimidate dialogue to be able to open up more spots for the skill, which kind of forced you to stick to one way rather than do what you want.

Also, people seem stuck on thinking that Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". They are both essentially good (with few exceptions), but the Renegade is more likely to defy authority. That they are both basically good makes effects of using renegade options on the (pre-med bay upgrade) face of Shepard even more ridiculous.

You are penalized because you teammates DIE. You are penalized because Shepard DIES. Can't think of a worse penalty.

I did always think that the Paragon/Renegade options should have been more fleshed out. Sparing the Rachni Queen should have been, in my opinion, a renegade option. After all, you are releasing a possible genocidal insect race upon the galaxy once more. Whilst this turns out to not be the case, the flavor of the month was Rachni=Tyranids or something...

Bioware gave you the freedom to make a choice and reminds you throughout these have consequences, and some of them are bad. If you wanted to be diplomatic, then you must practice diplomacy. Besides, I thought it would be obvious that renegade shepard is not a man (or woman) of diplomatic tendancies but rather swift, decisive action. As a social experiement, just try acting like renegade shepard for a few days and see how many friends want to stick around.

Pretty much this. They told you there would be consequences. You can't be a ***** to everyone then yell at the developers for everyone hating you.

 

[Kermi]

Why give an option for "happy" ending then? If they wanted to make a point or something, they could have just excluded the option of keeping everyone alive, plain and simple. As it stands, i'm just going to reload the save untill i reach the ideal conclusion. Screw that "hard choices" bullshit, it's only a video game.

It seems to me you missed one of the big selling points of the game. The choices you make have an impact, and if you're not willing to deal with the consequence of those actions then go ahead and reload saves until you get Super Happy Joy Ending AAA+.

I play how I want to, come what may.

 

[Jenova65]

How are you being penalized, really? It's not like the first game where charm and intimidate were skills you could invest in and get bonuses for (Store discount, motivated seller). Plus, you had to use the charm and intimidate dialogue to be able to open up more spots for the skill, which kind of forced you to stick to one way rather than do what you want.

Also, people seem stuck on thinking that Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". They are both essentially good (with few exceptions), but the Renegade is more likely to defy authority. That they are both basically good makes effects of using renegade options on the (pre-med bay upgrade) face of Shepard even more ridiculous.

You are penalized because you teammates DIE. You are penalized because Shepard DIES. Can't think of a worse penalty.

I did always think that the Paragon/Renegade options should have been more fleshed out. Sparing the Rachni Queen should have been, in my opinion, a renegade option. After all, you are releasing a possible genocidal insect race upon the galaxy once more. Whilst this turns out to not be the case, the flavor of the month was Rachni=Tyranids or something...

It is paragon because you are refusing to commit 'speciocide'! Without the Rachni Queen it is suggested that the entire species would die, hence paragon choice.
It is renegade to kill her because that would be Shepard acting as judge, jury and executioner which is not his/her place.

 

[Kollega]

It seems to me you missed one of the big selling points of the game. The choices you make have an impact, and if you're not willing to deal with the consequence of those actions then go ahead and reload saves until you get Super Happy Joy Ending AAA+.

I play how I want to, come what may.

I reiterate the question. Why do they left the "Super Happy Joy Ending AAA+" in if they want players to make their own choices and accept the consequences? Like they did not knew players would try to get it via loading an earlier save.

Actually, i won't be surprised if the game cockslaps you in the face upon trying this.

 

[The Aimless One]

I don't think it's that bad.

Though maybe it would be better if you allways had the option of an initial "paragon" or "renegade" response, and that delving further into either branch of the dialog-tree requires a higher paragon/renegade score.
This would alleviate the feeling of being forced down a single path while still rewarding persistance. Also it would avoid the situation where some player's later in the game don't have enough points to choose either response.

Asigning points yourself as in ME1 doesn't really work for me. I just bump them up to full as fast as I can to get it out of the way. XD

 

[Feylynn]

It isn't really role playing if you don't accept the consequences.
I juggled the idea of reloading or new game+ for a 'better' ending, but can't bring myself to do it. They were my mistakes, and I want Shepard to live with them. She definitely isn't impressed with one of them but she knows considering the circumstance, she did well.

Perhaps she lets some tears slip when she thinks back to how easily she could have saved another life, but both her and the team went in knowing the chances of survival. She won't let a stupid mistake stop her from moving on and doing what she has to.

As for the system itself, it kind of makes sense. It shows conviction in a personality to stick with what your character believes in. Resisting the urge to punch people in the face even if she looks like an idiot for holding back.
A leader/savior that alters their opinions and decisions easily isn't likely to be persuasive themselves.
It also mimics Shepard's position. She knows she can't afford to mess around, even if she wanted to. If you toy around as if it's a game in that position you are setting yourself and others in danger.

Consider this my argument for why Mass Effect is still an RPG and not just a Shooter with story as well. ;p

 

[ShotgunSmoke]

I was Renegade but I had a good portion of Paragon points. I could say that they were 50-50, with Renegade taking the upper hand. Not playing Renegade is like not playing the game at all.

My Shepard was a cynical badass and had a "shoot first - ask questions later" philosophy, but he was nice to the team (I can't bring myself to be an ass to my crew, they're like a family to me. ) and non-annoying NPC's, e.g. Gianna Parasini (And she even kissed him for it, lol.) Also, romance gives you a ton of Paragon points.

I settled the dispute between Miranda and Jack with intimidate, I told Legion to back off when he almost got in a fight with Tali, but later I told him that I lied to her with intimidate and regained his loyalty.

It's more fun to act on your instinct, rather than to play straight Paragon or Renegade.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

It should indeed be a little more lenient.

The system as it stands requires you to either a be goody little two shoes or a complete jerk.

 

[Woodsey]

No, it makes more sense and means skill points can be focused on combat elements.

I played how I wanted and had no trouble with the system - mostly morally grey, but with paragon leading slightly. Both options were there for me the majority of the time.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Is the new charm/intimidate system flawed? I found that I was struggling to fill my meter towards the end of the game, mostly because I had been playing how I wanted.
Is it right to be penalized for not playing to a set formula?

You're absolutely right.

In the first ME your charm/intimidate abilities depended on your skill tree, but in ME2 it depends on how much you've already charmed/intimidated. So the whole thing becomes a vicious circle where you have to choose one side of the spectrum in order to attain the best outcome; the more you charm the more you need to charm in order to gain more charm abilities.

This was a real stick in the mud for me, because it forced me to forgo some of the cool renegade options. It's the only real flaw this game has.
I hope they bring back the charm/intimidate skill tree in Mass Effect 3.

 

[Jenova65]

Is the new charm/intimidate system flawed? I found that I was struggling to fill my meter towards the end of the game, mostly because I had been playing how I wanted.
Is it right to be penalized for not playing to a set formula?

You're absolutely right.

In the first ME your charm/intimidate abilities depended on your skill tree, but in ME2 it depends on how much you've already charmed/intimidated. So the whole thing becomes a vicious circle where you have to choose one side of the spectrum in order to attain the best outcome; the more you charm the more you need to charm in order to gain more charm abilities.

This was a real stick in the mud for me, because it forced me to forgo some of the cool renegade options. It's the only real flaw this game has.
I hope they bring back the charm/intimidate skill tree im Mass Effect 3.

I wish they would bring back the skill tree full stop, for ME3 I really missed it :'-(
EDIT - And individual cool down cos that new system sucked the big one! I mean, really, I can't heal cos I used overload? Shame on you BioWare!

 

[Jandau]

I like the new one better. The old one forced you to waste skill points to be able to persuade anyone of anything. In the new one I've yet to miss a dialogue option of my chosen alignment, and if you play smart you'll even get a fair bit of the opposing alignment's dialogue. The triggers during dialogue are a great way to boost your Paragon/Renegade scores.

Also, the old one required you to raise your Paragon/Renegade scores as well, since without them you couldn't unlock higher levels. So you had to stick to the straight and narrow just to be ALLOWED to waste skill points on Charm/Intimidate.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Is the new charm/intimidate system flawed? I found that I was struggling to fill my meter towards the end of the game, mostly because I had been playing how I wanted.
Is it right to be penalized for not playing to a set formula?

You're absolutely right.

In the first ME your charm/intimidate abilities depended on your skill tree, but in ME2 it depends on how much you've already charmed/intimidated. So the whole thing becomes a vicious circle where you have to choose one side of the spectrum in order to attain the best outcome; the more you charm the more you need to charm in order to gain more charm abilities.

This was a real stick in the mud for me, because it forced me to forgo some of the cool renegade options. It's the only real flaw this game has.
I hope they bring back the charm/intimidate skill tree im Mass Effect 3.

I wish they would bring back the skill tree full stop, for ME3 I really missed it :'-(

Mass Effect 1 had a similar system, didn't it? You invested points in charm or intimidate, but the number of points you could invest in either was limited by your paragon and renegade stats. The more paragon you were, the more charm slots were open, and visa versa for renegade.

 

[Jenova65]

Is the new charm/intimidate system flawed? I found that I was struggling to fill my meter towards the end of the game, mostly because I had been playing how I wanted.
Is it right to be penalized for not playing to a set formula?

You're absolutely right.

In the first ME your charm/intimidate abilities depended on your skill tree, but in ME2 it depends on how much you've already charmed/intimidated. So the whole thing becomes a vicious circle where you have to choose one side of the spectrum in order to attain the best outcome; the more you charm the more you need to charm in order to gain more charm abilities.

This was a real stick in the mud for me, because it forced me to forgo some of the cool renegade options. It's the only real flaw this game has.
I hope they bring back the charm/intimidate skill tree im Mass Effect 3.

I wish they would bring back the skill tree full stop, for ME3 I really missed it :'-(

Erm, actually, mass effect 1 had a similar system. You invested points in charm or intimidate, but the number of points you could invest in either was limited by your paragon and renegade stats. The more paragon you were, the more charm slots were open, and visa versa for renegade.

ERM, actually I know, my point was general not specific regarding the skill tree but thanks for your input! (I have played ME many many times)

 

[Casual Shinji]

I wish they would bring back the skill tree full stop, for ME3 I really missed it :'-(

The great thing about the skill tree in ME was that - during the umteenth playthrough where my skill tree was fully loaded - I could pick whatever charm or intimidate option I wanted.
This is what makes a badass; the ability to handle any situation through either charming manipulation or muscle talk. It's what makes a character like Hannibal Lector so great. One moment is gentle and friendly and the next he's tearing your face of.
If you're very charming it means you have a way with words, and if you have a way with words you can use that in both a possitive and negative way.

 

[Jenova65]

I wish they would bring back the skill tree full stop, for ME3 I really missed it :'-(

The great thing about the skill tree in ME was that - during the umteenth playthrough where my skill tree was fully loaded - I could pick whatever charm or intimidate option I wanted.
This is what makes a badass; the ability to handle any situation through either charming manipulation or muscle talk. It's what makes a character like Hannibal Lector so great. One moment is gentle and friendly and the next he's tearing your face of.
If you're very charming it means you have a way with words, and if you have a way with words you can use that in both a possitive and negative way.

Precisely! Even if you only have half of the renegade points available (I never have unlocked the renegade branch fully but about half of it is available if I want it) it means you have more choice. The way it works now is LESS realistic really (interrupts aside, of course) I am a polite person IRL but can be quite rude if my buttons are pressed often enough or hard enough, iygwim?