The ME2 Renegade/Paragon Mistake

[Kermi]

It seems to me you missed one of the big selling points of the game. The choices you make have an impact, and if you're not willing to deal with the consequence of those actions then go ahead and reload saves until you get Super Happy Joy Ending AAA+.

I play how I want to, come what may.

I reiterate the question. Why do they left the "Super Happy Joy Ending AAA+" in if they want players to make their own choices and accept the consequences? Like they did not knew players would try to get it via loading an earlier save.

Actually, i won't be surprised if the game cockslaps you in the face upon trying this.

If reloading earier saves is how you want to play, then no one is stopping you. The good ending is there for the people who do manage to succeed against all odds. That's one possible outcome. The game also allows for the possibility you will fail. I fail to understand why this is the problem you're acting like it is.

It would make less sense if you got an ending where everyone lives regardless of your actions, after giving you so many opportunities to make decisions.

 

[Break]

I totally disagree. You can play the middle ground if you want, I think that indicates you lack the conviction necessary to survive. You're not supposed to survive. It's a suicide mission.
You want to succeed, pick a path and stick to it to give yourself the best odds.

Don't blame Bioware.

Bullshit. Is "conviction" having to choose between putting the galaxy in danger to protect your pride, or being an indecisive schizophrenic bastard? Is "conviction" choosing the course of action that the developers have defined as morally pure or self-serving, regardless of what your take on the situation is, what your actual reasons are, or what the facts blatantly tell you?

Take the whole fiasco that ensues whenever the Krogan genophage is brought up in conversations with Mordin. In both games, creating the genophage is talked about as a cruel, but absolutely necessary action - the ethics of the Turians and Salarians, the guilt of Mordin's team, Wrex's acknowledgement and acceptance that the Krogan just aren't ready for a cure... It's all built up as a grey situation in a grey universe. And then you chat with Mordin, and you get dailogue choices like "you're a heartless killer" and "how could you do such a thing" giving you Paragon points, while "don't hate yourself, you did what you had to do" is apparently consistent behaviour for a man who punched a reporter because he didn't like her tone.

Apparently I missed the memo that being a two-dimensional, self-contradictory idiot is a sign of "conviction".

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I would keep it as is and just make it a little easier to get either one instead of wording the choices so similar that one can't tell the difference

Up is good. Down is bad. Its not hard to tell.

 

[Kermi]

Bullshit. Is "conviction" having to choose between putting the galaxy in danger to protect your pride, or being an indecisive schizophrenic bastard? Is "conviction" choosing the course of action that the developers have defined as morally pure or self-serving, regardless of what your take on the situation is, what your actual reasons are, or what the facts blatantly tell you?

Take the whole fiasco that ensues whenever the Krogan genophage is brought up in conversations with Mordin. In both games, creating the genophage is talked about as a cruel, but absolutely necessary action - the ethics of the Turians and Salarians, the guilt of Mordin's team, Wrex's acknowledgement and acceptance that the Krogan just aren't ready for a cure... It's all built up as a grey situation in a grey universe. And then you chat with Mordin, and you get dailogue choices like "you're a heartless killer" and "how could you do such a thing" giving you Paragon points, while "don't hate yourself, you did what you had to do" is apparently consistent behaviour for a man who punched a reporter because he didn't like her tone.

Apparently I missed the memo that being a two-dimensional, self-contradictory idiot is a sign of "conviction".

Except that Shepard, along with most people in the ME universe, consider the genophage a bad thing. For Shepard, following the righteous or Paragon path is condemning the act. The Renegade Shepard sees that the end justified the means. I hardly see how this contradictory behaviour.

That's hardly the point though. The point is you can either choose to follow one path or another. If you're going to flip-flop or play neutrally, then you're playing as someone who hasn't got their mind set on the goal. Is it a perfect system? No. But within the confines of Mass Effect 2 world and the possible outcomes the game offers, it makes sense.

 

[reg42]

I didn't have a problem with it. It's more of a action game than a RPG anyway.

 

[WorthlessSix]

The Paragon/Renegade meter goes along with, how I found, the best way to play Shepard. It's hard to get a good feel for Shepard's character when you move back and forth between renegade and paragon options. I found the best way to chose conversations options was just to go with all renegade or all paragon and let Shepard develop herself/himself. Maybe ME2 is trying to go with the same theory. Either way though, there's still something flawed. When I went through on my all renegade playthrough, I had trouble racking up enough "mean" points. I guess it's just less difficult in this game to be paragon-y.

 

[JaredXE]

I didn't have a problem filling my paragon meter, hell, I was full before the IFF mission AND halfway up the Renegade meter.

I am having problems filling my renegade meter in ME1 though, I say dick things but get no points.

 

[PDizzle418]

I would keep it as is and just make it a little easier to get either one instead of wording the choices so similar that one can't tell the difference

this

I found myself playing a paragon only game with about a total of like 8 renegade actions throughout the game and I still could not get full paragon. Which is frustrating because you can't get people to shape up all the time if you aren't maxed in paragon.

I think it should be possible to max out both if you so desire. Maybe that's too easy but they need something like a repeatable quest which will offer paragon and cash or something so you can farm.

Not the most ideal way of fixing it but it would seem like a quick fix throw a couple NPCs in the citadel one for paragon the other for renegade. Or even just one that sends you out on missions to either rough people up or help them out that sort of thing.

Not enough side quests in that game.

 

[Eremiel]

It's the same as it was in ME1 except that you no longer need to spend skillpoints on it.

In ME1, charm/intimidate was capped by your renegade/paragon score, just as in ME2.

 

[Eremiel]

Take the whole fiasco that ensues whenever the Krogan genophage is brought up in conversations with Mordin. In both games, creating the genophage is talked about as a cruel, but absolutely necessary action - the ethics of the Turians and Salarians, the guilt of Mordin's team, Wrex's acknowledgement and acceptance that the Krogan just aren't ready for a cure... It's all built up as a grey situation in a grey universe. And then you chat with Mordin, and you get dailogue choices like "you're a heartless killer" and "how could you do such a thing" giving you Paragon points, while "don't hate yourself, you did what you had to do" is apparently consistent behaviour for a man who punched a reporter because he didn't like her tone.

Apparently I missed the memo that being a two-dimensional, self-contradictory idiot is a sign of "conviction".

It is self-contradictory to be able to console and offer comfort to a close friend while disapproving when a random stranger asks you a loaded question designed to frame you in a way you don't want?

 

[Break]

Except that Shepard, along with most people in the ME universe, consider the genophage a bad thing. For Shepard, following the righteous or Paragon path is condemning the act. The Renegade Shepard sees that the end justified the means. I hardly see how this contradictory behaviour.

Wait, on a side note, who are these people? You probably don't mean the people you persuade one way or the other, since that relies on your own dailogue, and as I said before, your impression of "most people thinking of the genophage as bad" was quite different from what I saw.

That's hardly the point though. The point is you can either choose to follow one path or another. If you're going to flip-flop or play neutrally, then you're playing as someone who hasn't got their mind set on the goal. Is it a perfect system? No. But within the confines of Mass Effect 2 world and the possible outcomes the game offers, it makes sense.

Except I honestly didn't see any kind of consistency between the Renegade options, or even the Paragon options. It's not just about the character maintaining an opinion on one particular subject, it's about what implications that opinion has on the character as a whole. The Paragon path can be anything from meekly charming to needlessly aggressive, with the only connecting factor being that it's arguably more pleasant or positive than the alternatives. Take, for instance, when you first visit Omega - you walk into the nightclub, and a few Batarians say "what're you looking at?" Your "intimidate" option, naturally, makes Shepard say something intimidating. Your "charm" option... Makes Shepard say something intimidating in a slightly more subtle manner. As opposed to asking them if they think it's a good idea to be starting a fight when the bouncers are on the other side of the door, or anything else that isn't a straight threat. Hardly what you'd describe as charming.

At no point did I get the impression that "Paragon Shepard" or "Renegade Shepard" were distinct characters that Bioware wrote - all in all, it seemed like they took each situation, decided on the three or five most likely responses the player would want to take, and assigned light side points to the one they thought was most positive, and dark side points to the one they thought was most negative. Another example of this is whenever the discussion turns to Cerberus - the Paragon option is usually the passive-aggressive, cynical option, while expressing agreement or understanding generally results in Renegade points. If there was any kind of consistency, Renegade Shepard would be even more aggressive than he usually is, and Paragon Shepard wouldn't be so snarky - but since opposing the racist terrorist group is clearly what The Good Guys would do, and reconciling with the racist terrorist group is what The Bad Guys would do, you get light side points for being petty, and dark side points for not immediately being aggressive. Bioware likes to dress these indices up in interesting words, whether it's "the Path of the Open Hand" or "Renegade", but it always devolves into "Saint" or "Asshole" when it comes to distributing the points.

(Speaking of points, while I hardly disapprove of the system Bioware appears to have used to write their dailogue trees, using the points awarded to track the persuasive ability of the character is inexplicably arbitrary, and on the first playthrough, can be fairly counter-intuitive to roleplaying - but that's another topic entirely.)

Frankly, I take greater issue with your notion of a flip-flopping character. Having a different take on a situation than the writers is hardly "indecisiveness". To a utilitarian Paragon Shepard, destroying the cure for the Krogan genophage would be perfectly in character, given that he might think that the possible risk of another war with the Krogen is too great a danger for the cure to exist yet. I simply don't understand why you think an unfaltering and unquestioning moral code is necessarily a sign of a character's determination, nor why such a thing is illustrated by sticking without fail to the Paragon or Renegade paths presented.

It is self-contradictory to be able to console and offer comfort to a close friend while disapproving when a random stranger asks you a loaded question designed to frame you in a way you don't want?

When "Renegade Shepard" has presumably treated Mordin with as many insults and disdainful comments as he possibly could - along with everyone else he's ever met in his life - yes, offering consolation all of a sudden is self-contradictory.

Loaded questions indeed.

 

[Penitent]

Is the new charm/intimidate system flawed? I found that I was struggling to fill my meter towards the end of the game, mostly because I had been playing how I wanted.
Is it right to be penalized for not playing to a set formula?

You're absolutely right.

In the first ME your charm/intimidate abilities depended on your skill tree, but in ME2 it depends on how much you've already charmed/intimidated. So the whole thing becomes a vicious circle where you have to choose one side of the spectrum in order to attain the best outcome; the more you charm the more you need to charm in order to gain more charm abilities.

This was a real stick in the mud for me, because it forced me to forgo some of the cool renegade options. It's the only real flaw this game has.
I hope they bring back the charm/intimidate skill tree in Mass Effect 3.

I thought that this was the principle on which ME1 followed on - the steps tart off as locked, but the more you get enough in a bar of Paragon/Renegade, the more blocks in Charm/Intimidate appear. If that weren't the case then I'd be ecstatic. How did this actually work in ME1, then?

 

[Altorin]

I like it since I don't have to waste points on the "charm" or "intimidate" skill. And why does it really matter if you filled the meter anyways? Not like there's an achievement, or any real value to doing so. Just play the game the way you want. My paragon ended up with about a bar of renegade points, just because renegade actions are so damn awesome.

I know. I too ended up with full Paragon and 1 bar Renegade. But say I didn't want to jeopardize my game but not being able to talk my way out of those loyalty conflicts.

If you're careful about who you pick in the final mission, the only two loyalty conflicts shouldn't have any real effect on the outcome.

Tali Vs Legion = Put who wins and retains their loyalty into the pipe
Miranda Vs Jake = If Miranda wins, put Samara as the Biotic Bubble, If Jake wins, don't let Miranda lead any teams

mission accomplished.

Or just talk to them later with a higher paragon/renegade and get their loyalty back

 

[Penitent]

That's hardly the point though. The point is you can either choose to follow one path or another. If you're going to flip-flop or play neutrally, then you're playing as someone who hasn't got their mind set on the goal. Is it a perfect system? No. But within the confines of Mass Effect 2 world and the possible outcomes the game offers, it makes sense.

Except I honestly didn't see any kind of consistency between the Renegade options, or even the Paragon options. It's not just about the character maintaining an opinion on one particular subject, it's about what implications that opinion has on the character as a whole. The Paragon path can be anything from meekly charming to needlessly aggressive, with the only connecting factor being that it's arguably more pleasant or positive than the alternatives. Take, for instance, when you first visit Omega - you walk into the nightclub, and a few Batarians say "what're you looking at?" Your "intimidate" option, naturally, makes Shepard say something intimidating. Your "charm" option... Makes Shepard say something intimidating in a slightly more subtle manner. As opposed to asking them if they think it's a good idea to be starting a fight when the bouncers are on the other side of the door, or anything else that isn't a straight threat. Hardly what you'd describe as charming.

At no point did I get the impression that "Paragon Shepard" or "Renegade Shepard" were distinct characters that Bioware wrote - all in all, it seemed like they took each situation, decided on the three or five most likely responses the player would want to take, and assigned light side points to the one they thought was most positive, and dark side points to the one they thought was most negative. Another example of this is whenever the discussion turns to Cerberus - the Paragon option is usually the passive-aggressive, cynical option, while expressing agreement or understanding generally results in Renegade points. If there was any kind of consistency, Renegade Shepard would be even more aggressive than he usually is, and Paragon Shepard wouldn't be so snarky - but since opposing the racist terrorist group is clearly what The Good Guys would do, and reconciling with the racist terrorist group is what The Bad Guys would do, you get light side points for being petty, and dark side points for not immediately being aggressive. Bioware likes to dress these indices up in interesting words, whether it's "the Path of the Open Hand" or "Renegade", but it always devolves into "Saint" or "Asshole" when it comes to distributing the points.

(Speaking of points, while I hardly disapprove of the system Bioware appears to have used to write their dailogue trees, using the points awarded to track the persuasive ability of the character is inexplicably arbitrary, and on the first playthrough, can be fairly counter-intuitive to roleplaying - but that's another topic entirely.)

Frankly, I take greater issue with your notion of a flip-flopping character. Having a different take on a situation than the writers is hardly "indecisiveness". To a utilitarian Paragon Shepard, destroying the cure for the Krogan genophage would be perfectly in character, given that he might think that the possible risk of another war with the Krogen is too great a danger for the cure to exist yet. I simply don't understand why you think an unfaltering and unquestioning moral code is necessarily a sign of a character's determination, nor why such a thing is illustrated by sticking without fail to the Paragon or Renegade paths presented.

It is self-contradictory to be able to console and offer comfort to a close friend while disapproving when a random stranger asks you a loaded question designed to frame you in a way you don't want?

When "Renegade Shepard" has presumably treated Mordin with as many insults and disdainful comments as he possibly could - along with everyone else he's ever met in his life - yes, offering consolation all of a sudden is self-contradictory.

Loaded questions indeed.

I couldn't agree more. The Paragon/Renegade system has an important place in the game, but I don't believe there should be such a barrior between the player's ability to choose between the two. Ideally the game should let you act as you feel you should or want, and the system may be better used rewarding one's persistence in one path instead of limiting his ability to apply the other. Perhaps further rewards and plot options for higher ranked paragons or renegades are in order?

 

[Eremiel]

When "Renegade Shepard" has presumably treated Mordin with as many insults and disdainful comments as he possibly could - along with everyone else he's ever met in his life - yes, offering consolation all of a sudden is self-contradictory.

Loaded questions indeed.

Firstly, do you remember ME1 and the same reporter? You have every right to be pissed. She attempted to put you in an un-flattering light no matter how you phrased yourself.


Secondly, I was full Renegade and Shepard was never an ass to his/her team. Renegade in Mass Effect does NOT mean childish insults and disdainful comments, it simply meant getting the job done no matter the costs. That the end would always justify the means. That's the beauty of the whole alignment system. Renegade does NOT mean evil. Paragon does NOT mean good.
Garrus Vakarian is Renegade. Urdnot Wrex was a Renegade. At the extreme spectrum, so was Saren.

Don't presume to how Shepard's crew/team was treated.

 

[DustyDrB]

How are you being penalized, really? It's not like the first game where charm and intimidate were skills you could invest in and get bonuses for (Store discount, motivated seller). Plus, you had to use the charm and intimidate dialogue to be able to open up more spots for the skill, which kind of forced you to stick to one way rather than do what you want.

Also, people seem stuck on thinking that Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". They are both essentially good (with few exceptions), but the Renegade is more likely to defy authority. That they are both basically good makes effects of using renegade options on the (pre-med bay upgrade) face of Shepard even more ridiculous.

You are penalized because you teammates DIE. You are penalized because Shepard DIES. Can't think of a worse penalty.

I did always think that the Paragon/Renegade options should have been more fleshed out. Sparing the Rachni Queen should have been, in my opinion, a renegade option. After all, you are releasing a possible genocidal insect race upon the galaxy once more. Whilst this turns out to not be the case, the flavor of the month was Rachni=Tyranids or something...

Your team and Shepard die if you don't buy ship upgrades and do at least three (I think it's three, might be four) loyalty missions. Unloyal teammates (due to not being able to resolve a conflict between Miranda and Jack or Tali and Legion) don't necessarily die, depending on how you assign your teams.

An example of Shepard being renegade but still good that I just encountered:

Spoiler

On Ilium you encounter Shiala, who tells you that the Zhu's Hope colony has had some problems recently. You can speak to a woman to help resolve the situation. She comes off as racist, but if you use either Charm OR Intimidate, you find that she's just hurt because of an event in her past in which humans hurt someone close to her. Using intimidate, you still somewhat console the woman and help Zhu's Hope.

Most of the time, a renegade being a bad guy is the result of a "trigger" action.

 

[high_castle]

My major problem with the renegade/paragon system in this game was that there didn't seem to be much of a difference between the two. My ostensibly paragon Shep was still a major jerk about certain decisions (threatening to shoot/punch people, etc.). I have to say, it was a major turn-off to me, especially considering the discrepancy between the paragon of the first game and the second.

 

[Skuffyshootster]

The only thing that has pissed me off concerning the Paragon/Renegade score is that I lost Tali's loyalty in her fight with Legion, even though I was only half a bar off from being 100% Renegade.

Off-topic, does anyone have any tips on keeping her alive during the suicide mission?