The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

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Draconalis

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Story said:
Sorry to bud in, but I'm curious, aren't both ways void for academia so long as the thesis is supported by evidence? I mean, why does it matter which came first or last when you are choosing to take those points e.i cherry picking to support your evidence anyway?

Why is cherry picking bad anyway?
To put this in as dramatic a way as I can.

Cherry picking proves the God created the world.

You already believe the world was created by God. That's the truth, you can't be wrong.

Now all you need to do is go out and find the evidence to prove you're right, and ignore everything that proves you wrong.

This is both why cherry picking is bad, and why it's important that you don't have an opinion before you have something to support it.

First comes the hypothesis, and idea that may or may not be wrong. You attempt to disprove it. If you fail, the hypothesis might not be wrong after all.

That is the proper way to go about forming an academic opinion.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Story said:
Having read some of the comments here, apparently it's not common knowledge. You would think so though.
Then People seriously need to get out more, because 4chan, trolls, tumblr SJW, and religious debates on YouTube don't represent the majority of real life experiences.
 

Story

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Tenmar said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
I'm shocked you would even suggest that the start of a thesis should be a person's opinion. It should never be the opinion because people will often make up their mind on a subject and only look for sources that agree with them and that is what we call cherry picking.
I know this was addressed to someone else, but you just answered my question. Out of curiosity though, aren't those opinions validated if they are actually supported by concrete evidence?
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Tenmar said:
...Actually that isn't a thesis. A thesis would start not with an opinion but with a question.

"A thesis is a statement that reflects what you have concluded about the topic of your paper, based on a critical analysis and interpretation of the source materials you have examined."
Pocket Guide to writing in history- fifth edition

"Your thesis statement: proposes an answer to a question you have posed as a result of your reading AND asserts a conclusion with which a reader might disagree, and which can be supported by evidence from the sources"
Pocket Guide to writing in history- fifth edition
....

"Pocket Guide to writing in history"

Do I even need to point out why everything you said has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about? **sigh** Apparently so.

You are 100% when you are talking about history papers.

I'm talking about Fiction. Interpreting and analyzing fiction.

Not Science.
Not History.
Not Math.
Not anything that has provable facts of any kind.

Fiction.

Video games are works of Fiction, guys. They follow fiction rules.
 

BlumiereBleck

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I've never heard of this woman, I've read your article and I feel White Knightism. I've read other articles comments about her and her work and I can't say she seems like a very nice person or even someone who should be working in a professional level. Sure feminism is neat and wonderful for society, but radical feminism is demeaning and misandric.
 

Vegosiux

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This tendency people have to put random individuals on a pedestal and idolize them to hell and back is making me more and more confused. From a certain point of view, it's nothing but a power fantasy.

I haven't actually read much of the thread because I don't want a migraine, but assuming it went anywhere near how it usually goes ...

Started with a couple of people going on about how awesome Sarkeesian is and how we should all be grateful to have a benefactor like her in gaming for she will bring upon the medium a better age. Afterwards some people came in, were not 100% supportive of Sarkeesian, and it all kind of started going downhill. It was not helped by the fact that there were also some less savory comments about the woman, posted with mischief in mind, only cementing the "us vs. them" sentiment that arises about a page and a half at latest.

Then it all devolved into Sarkeesian Thread CMLXXVIII: The return of the revenge of the magnificent Sarkeesian Thread: Electric Boogaloo", everyone got real upset about being misinterpreted, strawmanned and called names, and now, 10 pages later, people are generally quite grouchy and a reboot and a proper discussion, unburdened by misconceptions can't happen anymore, but folks still insist on clinging to their positions. And it's gotten all personal, too. And all it did is make people even less likely to even consider or acknowledge the other side's argument.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot about the mod wrath. That happened too.
 

wulf3n

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Story said:
Sorry to bud in, but I'm curious, aren't both ways void for academia so long as the thesis is supported by evidence? I mean, why does it matter which came first or last you are choosing to take those points e.i cherry picking to support your evidence?

Why is cherry picking bad anyway?
Cherry picking implies that you're only taking evidence that supports a claim even though evidence that doesn't support the claim, or even disproves it exists.

This is bad because the conclusion is wrong if all of the available evidence doesn't support it, yet people try to present it as correct.

The order (conclusion vs evidence) doesn't *have* to be evidence first conclusion afterwards provided one is willing to accept their conclusion is wrong, in the face of conflicting evidence.
 

Piecewise

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Draconalis said:
I don't... think you know what the word proven means...
When you write an argumentative essay, you must put forward your thesis as if you are proving a fact. If you don't, your thesis - and essay - will be weak.

Of course, you aren't really proving anything. You're creating an argument and supporting it. Two different essay writers can come up with two opposing view points and argue to support them - in some cases using the same evidence - and neither can truly be right or wrong. They're opinions - and you can't prove opinions, no matter how much evidence you provide.

This is the foundation of academic writing.

Anita has an opinion. She is using evidence to support her opinion. That's what academic writers do. It is not "cheery picking" - it is selecting evidence to support a thesis.

And the one arguing about the definition of words is you, so perhaps you should consider your own proficiency rather than insinuating about mine.
You present it as though it is true, give support and also talk about dissenting opinions and attempt to argue against them. You put it forth as an person who believes what they're saying is correct but who also accepts that other theories exist and that their interpretation could be wrong. You don't make shallow declarations of how everything you dislike is Misogynistic and act as though any dissenting opinion is a personal attack or sexist itself.
 

Ipsen

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Karadalis said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
Draconalis said:
I don't... think you know what the word proven means...
When you write an argumentative essay, you must put forward your thesis as if you are proving a fact. If you don't, your thesis - and essay - will be weak.

Of course, you aren't really proving anything. You're creating an argument and supporting it. Two different essay writers can come up with two opposing view points and argue to support them - in some cases using the same evidence - and neither can truly be right or wrong. They're opinions - and you can't prove opinions, no matter how much evidence you provide.

This is the foundation of academic writing.

Anita has an opinion. She is using evidence to support her opinion. That's what academic writers do. It is not "cheery picking" - it is selecting evidence to support a thesis.

And the one arguing about the definition of words is you, so perhaps you should consider your own proficiency rather than insinuating about mine.
So in short creationists cant be proven wrong?

People who claim the earth is flat cant be proven wrong?

Youre making it to easy for yourself.

What youre discribing here is a philosophical debate. Theres nothing philosophical of arnita claiming that games and the sexist picture they draw are used by the patriarchy to surpress womens rights.

Those are her words not mine btw and people should really listen to what she keeps spouting and dont let themselves be cought by all the buzzwords she uses.

She basically claims that the image of women in gaming has not gotten better over the years even thought that is clearly not the case. The way women are treated evolves the same as women are being treated in real live. It might be a slow progress but there is progress none the less.

And no.. no amount of argumentation will make me believe in the patriarchy trying to subdue female rights with the use of video games.
If a creationist believes in what s/he wrote, and the evidence provided, than no, you can't prove that they are wrong. Granted, you can provide your own argument counter, and convince OTHERS that you are right, and/or the creationist is wrong.

This is the nature of communicating and persuading people; we don't inherently value scientific process. We do, and I'm pretty sure all of us, value social interaction, especially with like-minded people.
 

Draconalis

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Bara_no_Hime said:
I'm talking about Fiction. Interpreting and analyzing fiction.

Not Science.
Not History.
Not Math.
Not anything that has provable facts of any kind.

Fiction.

Video games are works of Fiction, guys. They follow fiction rules.
Real world implications, NOT Fiction.

I have no idea when you decided we were talking strictly art, because that was never stated.

Even then, I'd wager having an opinion about fiction before writing is still not good. How can one play the Devil's Advocate then?
 

Karadalis

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Karadalis said:
So in short creationists cant be proven wrong?
People who claim the earth is flat cant be proven wrong?
That's science. I specifically noted Humanities, and specifically noted that cheery picking was something that occurred in science, not in humanities.

We're talking about interpretations of artwork.
But shes not interpreting artwork here...

She says that cause A has effect B as a logical follow up.. when in truth there is no proof for A effecting B

She claims female tropes in videogame lead to real life sexism and mysoginy... even thought she has no proof for that accusation just like those people that claim violence in videogames leads to real live violence.

The rest of her videos consist of going "Yep.. trope.. yep.. trope.. yep.. trope" we allready know that stereotypes are boring and overused... that doesnt make them dangerous thought.
 

Frozengale

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Wow, I stepped away from my computer at 17 comments, come back a few hours later and we've broken the 300 mark. Glad to see Anita still brings up so much ire on the interwebs.

I'm not quite sure why this is an article at all. Since the main message seems to be, "Anita gets people talking. Some people like her. Some people don't. People don't act the same way in RL like they do Online." Thanks for that insight.

Since this is an article about Anita though I will leave my usual two-cents. Talking about the issues does very little to solve them. It brings attention to an issue but that's about it. If Anita actually wants to do something then she should be making games. The reason the gaming industry seems to pander to the White Male CIS Straight demographic is because the majority of the audience is such, and the majority of the creators are such. The more people that we get into the industry that don't represent that demographic, the more we will split off from that pandering. If you want the market to change, then go change it. Talk is talk. What we need is more females in the industry. What we don't need is people shouting that we're doing it wrong, when they aren't even doing anything at all.
 

Rebel_Raven

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I'm not a huge fan of Anita, but I admit she has some points, and gets us talking. Good on her for being less dry in person than in her videos.

One one hand, this is a conversation worth having because the problem persists heavily.
On the other, what has to be said has been said. It's really hard to continue this conversation as the material doesn't change, we just get more examples of it. The best we can do is hope newcomers glean something from this, and gain some awareness of the problem.

Say what you will about her, she does have some points. The industry really sucks in portraying women as PROTAGONISTS.
It's not for lack of writing ability. Lara Croft, Samus, Nilin, and a ton (Not saying there are lots of them compared to guys, or in general) of other female protagonists were written by men.

Look at other media. TV, Movies, books. Men write those. Those include women in reasonable portrayals at times.
And on the flip side, women do write men.

I'm gunna be real here. NPCs don't matter near as much as the protagonist in the grand scemes of things to me. The game doesn't get completed by NPCs.
A cool NPC doesn't stack up vs a cool protagonist to me.
Peach might be a princess, and rule her own kingdom, but a lot of the actual use of her power is left to our imaginations. Without actual impact in the game, I can't say I really care because in the game they do all of jack shit. Franky the fact that Bowser curbstomps the kingdom, waltzes up, and kidnapps Peach means she must be a crappy ruler to not have proper defenses after nearly a dozen kidnappings from the same guy. that's the only thing I really know about Peach's prowess as a ruler.

Bear with me here.
Think of videogames as movies. The protagonist you play is the lead role. Your role.
Basically I'm tired of feeling typecast as as a 20s-30s white guy with short to no hair.
Very rarely do I get to feel like I'm playing as my own gender.
I mean, I like being able to invest as much of myself as possible to enjoy the escapism of games.

<youtube=V2uNKqcsAeg>
kinda sums it up, too indirectly. When kids play outside pretending to be their favorite videogame character those little girls are faced with a lot of less than wholesome options, and very very few wholesome ones. Frankly, a lot of female NPCs while "important" as members of the cast, they also get a lot of the boring jobs. Lets see you consistently play Charlie's Angels where you're Charlie all the time, and no one, and nothing else while the girls go out to do the interesting stuff.
I gotta say there's more guys you could dress up as for imagination play time than there are women without ... well, trouble. <.<

To me, if you want to play as a woman in games, you are "Priness Leia" in that the character can be compitent but fanservice is expected (And generally something more people remember you for), some obscure woman, or a stripper, or some combination in the grand scheme of videogames. I'm not saying these women can't exist as symbols of the status quo but can we get variety?
And when you do play as them, they're usually stuck as rogues, medics, mages, gunners, or archers. Keeping in mind these games are set in fictional worlds where our norms need not apply, the few variations of roles seems rather confining. To resume the movie metaphor, I don't like being type cast.

I mean typcasting sucks regardless of who you are. Patrick Stewart kinda regretted playing Picard. Yeah, we love him for it, but typecasting screws up getting more diverse roles, and it's not all that fun.

If you want to be a guy? You certainly have your choices. Nathan Drake, Link, Mario, Kratos, the protagonists from Infamous, numerous white guys in FPSes, Marcus Phoenix, Phoenix Wright, Professor layton, etc.
Their methods of getting through a game are generally more diverse as they can be medics, rogues, mages, gunners, warriors, archers, etc. Pretty much what little women often get to be, and far far more. Plus they generally get the more intersting abilities.

Blank slate create your own avatars are kinda off the table here as they generally invest diddly in gender for better or worse, and even with them on the table, they're far, and few in between.
I mean, lets look at Grand Theft Auto Online for one. Aside from the start, prostitutes serve with the same animations as they would with a guy which should go without saying why that's wrong.
Hushsmush charges you 500 dollars regardless of gender despite saying women chat free, not that I expected much out of it, but hey, it's there.
There's also a lack of accessable male sex partners.
Of course we know they'll likely get less respect than the female prostitutes being gunned down by homophobes, or something. <.< Then again there's the handful of people that stand outside a club in drag. Poor guys must get no end of crap as it is.
Also a lack of accessable strip clubs that feature guys. There's at least 1 out in the city, but like most buildings the doors are sealed. The signs, window dressing.
Yes, I understand that GTAO is a game where the entire focus seems to be shooting eachother, but there's some glaring faults in that game!

Ubisoft said they considered "Beyond Good and Evil" a mistake. Odds are we won't be seeing a sequel with them having said that. With all the things they can change to make part 2 less of a mistake, we won't likely be seeing a sequel.
This came up during talks about "Child of light" a game that Ubisoft is thankfully still making, but seemed against initially.
The one thing the games seem to have in common is a female protagonist.

Despite it all, the game industry, especially producers, is hard pressed to accept women as protaogonists. With the game industry failing in not making enough money, their blind adherence to one market by and large, seems to be suicidal as opposed to, I dunno, getting new customers to add to the unsustainable, underperforming income they're getting now.

In anticipation of the "make your own game" responses I'm 99.99999999999999(Ad infinit)% certain I'll get, I don't have the time, resources, or connections to make my own game, same as most of the people who'll blindly suggest this in an effort to get me to shut up, and little else.
Moreover, a lack of vision, ability to plan, and a great many real barriers stand in the way.
Considering I've laid out why I'm not able to make my own game, I can cross off "ignorance" as one of the reasons I hate "make your own game" as an argument as there's no reason to remain ignorant of why I'm not taking the route.
Now all that's left is, and feel free to pick one:
Malice: This ruins it for the people who'd genuinely give enough of a damn to actually try and help.
Idiocy: I explained why the excuse is ineffective. If you wish to ignore that, well...
Hypocracy: So you're sitting there expecting me to do something you're unwilling to do yourself, and unable to live up to the standards you're seeking out of me?

Genuine desire to help, and (hopefully) the willnigness to back it up: Bless you, you're a credit to the gaming world.

Still, even if I did create my own game, it'd make an impact, how now? You don't know? And you're expecting me to?
One game isn't likely to change everything, or much of anything.

Invariably, voting with one's wallet comes to the conversation.
1: I don't believe there's enough people doing that to make the game industry care, despite massive layoffs, shutdowns, buyouts, and the industry generally becoming far smaller than it once was.
2: Considering my feelings of alienation towards the game industry aren't new here, it's very well possible, IMO, that people have been "voting with their wallets" for more female protagonists since the girl power 90's era ended, and when female protagonists dried up for futuer releases. Hence the industry falling in hard times.

Now, I'm anticipating a few questions.
Q: Do you play as guys?
A: Yes. Sometimes I even enjoy it, but most of the time, I just have hobbes choice. Play as a guy, or don't game.

Q: Why do you want to play as a girl?
A: Because I am one, and I could enjoy the change in perspective/writing.

Q: I'm a guy and can play as a girl why can't you play as a guy?
A: I'd say you can play as a girl because it's a rare luxury and can go back to your default guys any time and have the comforts of playign as your own gender. I want to play as a girl as it is my gender, but it's a rare luxury, and I'm tired of playing as default guys which isn't my preferrence largely due to them being bland, and overabundant.
I-frikking-e: http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/06/22/the-devolution-of-character-designs
In other words, I want variety for guys, too. If I pretty much -have- to be a guy or practically never game, then they'd better frikking be interesting!

Of course, I expect someone to come up with a list that dates back to the dawn of gaming for female protagonists, so I'll address that now.
Do realize that list includes every expensive system, and a lot of expensive games. I'm not made of money.
It's kind of absurd to expect every gamer that wants to play as a female character to buy so many systems, and track down the games when most gamers only look to the future.
Do realize that that list is in no way reassuring of the future of the industry in terms of female protagonists.

Even with things brightening up a bit, I still have much reason to worry about the future of women in videogames... and that's just in the digital world.

One thing puzzles me, though. People like to point out her video use, her wardrobe, her methods, kickstarter, etc. and I gotta wonder... what does that have to do with anything towards the point of female representation she's trying to make? To me, the person making the point, and the point are not the same thing.


/rant
 

Story

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Draconalis said:
Story said:
Sorry to bud in, but I'm curious, aren't both ways void for academia so long as the thesis is supported by evidence? I mean, why does it matter which came first or last when you are choosing to take those points e.i cherry picking to support your evidence anyway?

Why is cherry picking bad anyway?
To put this in as dramatic a way as I can.

Cherry picking proves the God created the world.

You already believe the world was created by God. That's the truth, you can't be wrong.

Now all you need to do is go out and find the evidence to prove you're right, and ignore everything that proves you wrong.

This is both why cherry picking is bad, and why it's important that you don't have an opinion before you have something to support it.

First comes the hypothesis, and idea that may or may not be wrong. You attempt to disprove it. If you fail, the hypothesis might not be wrong after all.

That is the proper way to go about forming an academic opinion.
Hmm interesting, I see now. It seems I confused hypothesis with thesis. Yet who is to say Anita didn't notice this trend in video games, decided to explore it farther and found the evidence she needed to support it? And in this case, even the excepts managed to support her argument because she found only a few of them. I don't know, it seems pretty difficult to separate your preconceived ideas when you are developing a hypothesis. Especially when you work with literature. For science like chemistry it makes more sense though.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Karadalis said:
But shes not interpreting artwork here...

She says that cause A has effect B as a logical follow up.. when in truth there is no proof for A effecting B

She claims female tropes in videogame lead to real life sexism and mysoginy... even thought she has no proof for that accusation just like those people that claim violence in videogames leads to real live violence.

The rest of her videos consist of going "Yep.. trope.. yep.. trope.. yep.. trope" we allready know that stereotypes are boring and overused... that doesnt make them dangerous thought.
**facepalm**

A video game is a piece of artwork.

Tropes are things that occur in pieces of artwork (like books, films, and games).

The idea that artwork leads to real life sexism is called feminist theory. It is a type of literary criticism - as noted by Movie Bob in his video about Orson Scott Card. And it is the school of thought that Anita studied in college.

So yes, we are talking about artwork.
 

NiPah

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Ah man, I saw the article title and thought this was written by Anita Sarkeesian.

No disrespect to Bob but I'd love if she actually wrote an article for the Escapist, would be a very interesting point of view and while I don't agree with every point she makes (though there are many I do agree on) she brings a lot to the table.
 

Karadalis

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Rebel_Raven said:
By all accounts you are right.

Yes the video game industry is laughably clumsy in their portraial of female protagonists. But intentionaly suggesting that the industry is out to surpress female rights is an entirely different beast.

All those "sexist" tropes she has listed just make my eyes roll.

Where are all the Dead or alive beach volleyball examples?

Its not like real objectivication doesnt exist in games.. its a very real thing. But those are made to sell a game to a certain demographic... not to destroy womens rights like arnita keeps claiming over and over again.

If that market didnt exist so wouldnt those games. These games are ment for that audience and not to make a political statement. That is why people feel personaly attacked by her... because basically she tells people that they are bad evil women hating monsters for enjoying their particular brand of fantasy.

EDITH says:

No we are not discussing art here.. we are discussing a scientific conclusion.

Effect A has consequence B

That is as scientific as it can get

But effect A does not have consequence B

So she is wrong no matter what aproach you take.. she... is... wrong.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that video games influence peoples behavior in real life.

You are not becomming a mysgonistic douche just because you played super mario as a child.. but here is arnita claiming it to be so without providing any proof what so freaking ever.