The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[Draconalis]

Yet who is to say Anita didn't notice this trend in video games, decided to explore it farther and found the evidence she needed to support it?

If this were the case, she'd have sources to site, since she'd have done actual research. And so many of her points wouldn't be taken out of context.

This is also a form of cherry picking. As someone in this thread said earlier, I can easily say that Story "is a neo-nazi and supports child prostitution" then look over all of your comments, pick them apart and arrange them in a way that supports my claim.

Cherry picking is also dishonest.

Lastly, she's not working with literature. Her subject matter might be games, but the overarching message is social political in nature.

 

[Icehearted]

Anita is one of the reasons non-white feminists are getting so angry at "privileged white girl" feminists, who state their opinions wrapped in the cause of feminisim, drawing attention away from important issues over stupid things like what fictional characters wear in video games. Never mind that women have been a big part of gaming for 40+ years, she acts like they didn't exist before her.

I would agree but only in the spirit of feminism as it is needed to equal rights for the sexes, and not as the hate group that seeks supremacy and exception. The latter part of your comment I think might be where quite a bit of the newest wave of backlash over all of this is coming from.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think we should rename this thread, because in all honesty this thread is really of absolutely no relation to the article it is tied to. May be should call it "Smug Self-Satisfaction and Moral Outrage; a Tragey in 30 pages." Seriously people, grow the fuck up.
[font color="white"]And yes, I do realize how ironically smug I sound, but I'm certainly not out smugging Dubya or half the other people commenting here.[/font]

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Eh. I dislike feminism because even moderate feminists tends to just assume that 'men are teh evulz' is the default way to contextualise everything, and either cherry-pick facts that support this, or skew things that don't support it so they seem like they do. It's a dogmatic approach and not at all in step with proper critical thinking. Or err... honesty. Plus I'm frankly fucking tired of people telling me that my internal motivations are sex and subjugating women (for the lulz or something?) and nothing else.

Admittedly, Anita has a point, in that women are under-represented in both the industry and the games themselves, and female characters are even more likely to be poorly written than male ones. Unfortunately, she also tries to apply this logic to story tropes and does it poorly. If I want to rescue someone from a horrible dungeon/prison/keep/whatever, and I'm willing to risk myself to do it, isn't that quite a noble thing? Hey guys, don't call the fire brigade, calling in teh firemen(pah!) to get the people out of that burning building is denying their agency and objectifying them.

And of course, if I'm rescuing say, Thrall from a dungeon that's cool, it's only if I'm rescuing Peach that there's a problem...

Plus, you don't need thousands of dollars to make a fucking youtube series. What is she doing, going out and buying the £250 collectors-super-dooper-edition of everything she reviews? I get that she only asked for 6k or so, but that's still kinda galling when plenty of people do exactly the same thing for free...


+the threats and stuff are horrible. That I agree with.

TL;DR: Write better female characters (or just write game characters better altogether maybe?) and don't threaten people on the Internet. But also: fuck right off, feminism...
Humanism ftw

 

[wulf3n]

A video game is a piece of artwork.

Tropes are things that occur in pieces of artwork (like books, films, and games).

The idea that artwork leads to real life sexism is called feminist theory. It is a type of literary criticism - as noted by Movie Bob in his video about Orson Scott Card. And it is the school of thought that Anita studied in college.

So yes, we are talking about artwork.

No we're talking about the effect artwork has on society. Something feminist theory as far as I'm aware has yet to provide any evidence for.

 

[SummerOtaku]

The fact that all of the leaders are huge misogynists and (usually) rape apologists. The fact that they are anti-science, choosing to hold to disproved theories of evolutionary psychology. The fact that even the most "respectable" of their number, Warren Farrell, has endorsed date-rape.

Any links for reference?
Also I'm not sure you can consider anyone in MHRM a "leader"
There are few noticeable personas, but no one who demands/deserves/carries title of "leader"
Are you talking about any particular person?

I am thinking of the leaders of A Voice For Men and The Spearhead, two of the most prominent sites. Both have said absolutely awful things and both of which are generally held up as leaders in the MRA community. Warren Farrel talked about how date rape is sexy in his book, so I don't have any direct links to that, but I do have links to images of the passage where he discusses that, if you like.

As for links to horrible stuff from them... Well, those are more easy to find!

Horrible shit from The Spearhead:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/10/14/why-you-might-want-to-think-twice-about-sending-your-daughter-to-college/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/05/30/after-25-women-are-just-wasting-time/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/09/15/how-female-suffrage-destroyed-western-civilization/

Horrible shit from A Voice For Men:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/women-dont-own-sex/
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/chanty-no-not-that-one/
http://www.avoiceformen-uk.com/2013/07/are-women-homophobic.html

OK, let's review some of the examples you gave. I will focus on the ones from A Voice for Men.
Women don't own sex: 1. Being cautious is important, no matter what gender you are, you can decrease the likelihood of being the victim of a violent crime. That DOESN'T mean the victim is guilty, just that being cautious can save your life. 2. Vilifying all men for actions done by a small minority of both men and women is discrimination and teaching men not to rape doesn't have any merit, because ALL MEN ALREADY KNOW THAT and rapists are not doing it out of ignorance. 3. The final point, the one you would call rape apology, is that the sexes should be equal in sexual encounters. At the moment a man can be convicted of rape without any evidence, a woman can claim rape if both she and her partner were intoxicated, statutory rape cases are often gender biased- there is a case of a 13-year old paying child support to his rapist, for example.
The other two articles discuss point 2 from the previous article.
Yes, there are some exaggerations and generalizations, but I wouldn't say that complaining about inequality is horrible shit.

All men already know that? I'm not sure I agree given statistics and the like. Do you not believe rape culture exists?

Yes, I'm sure of that, just like all people know that murder is wrong. I think the rape culture is actually all men being framed as rapists and all women as victims, coupled with the spreading of paranoia among women. Most rape victims are male. Female rapists are a minority, but a significant one that is being downplayed.

You think most rape victims are male? That ALL men are framed as rapists and women victims? Oh man...it hurts to know people actually think this.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think we should rename this thread, because in all honesty this thread is really of absolutely no relation to the article it is tied to. May be should call it "Smug Self-Satisfaction and Moral Outrage; a Tragey in 30 pages." Seriously people, grow the fuck up.
[font color="white"]And yes, I do realize how ironically smug I sound, but I'm certainly not out smugging Dubya or half the other people commenting here.[/font]

If you dont want to partake in the discussion.. theres the door. No one is forcing you to participate or even comment yet alone read.

All you do is making an ass out of yourselfe.

I read the article, found it to be a bit thought provoking, and was greeted by an army of screaming lunatics in the comments. I like discussing feminism, I like discussing what is wrong with the games industry, I hate discussing Anita Sarkesian because every argument related to her winds up being almost exclusively about peripheral matters like MRAs, fraud, threats and hate of varying qualities and targets, and tropes, rather than, you know, the prevalence of sexism in video games.

And for your information, I was an ass looooooong before I commented here.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

/rant

By all accounts you are right.

Yes the video game industry is laughably clumsy in their portraial of female protagonists. But intentionaly suggesting that the industry is out to surpress female rights is an entirely different beast.

All those "sexist" tropes she has listed just make my eyes roll.

Where are all the Dead or alive beach volleyball examples?

Its not like real objectivication doesnt exist in games.. its a very real thing. But those are made to sell a game to a certain demographic... not to destroy womens rights like arnita keeps claiming over and over again.

If that market didnt exist so wouldnt those games. These games are ment for that audience and not to make a political statement. That is why people feel personaly attacked by her... because basically she tells people that they are bad evil women hating monsters for enjoying their particular brand of fantasy.

.. But they are out to suppress female representation in videogames.

Spoiler

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/10/7922/
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/mar/06/women.games

http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had

http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/
http://uk.gamespot.com/features/fear-of-a-woman-warrior-6404142/
http://www.gamespot.com/news/naughty-dog-insisted-on-female-testers-for-the-last-of-us-6406619
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evI5pF5h8Ck
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 a point made in the form of a joke
http://indigitainment.com/2013/05/08/indigenous-determination-in-game-space/
http://www.toybox-games.jp/english0107.html
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-03-20-bastion-developer-teases-transistor-for-pax-east
http://lesbiangamers.com/2008/05/farcry-2-female-character-fiasco/

See? A whole lot of "no girls allowed" vibes.

Anita's points seem to focus on how women are pretty much always being saved by a guy, and, well, the women don't even have to be women sometimes.

They may not be violating women's rights, or trying to (aside, maybe the right for women to exist in sensible clothes in their games, or the right to not look like trophy wives. <.<) but I'm wondering if they're really helping anything? I mean games don't necessarily have a lot of great rolemodels, but that doesn't mean they can't exist.

Honestly, I'm not gunna argue the market for looking at hot women doesn't exist. I know it exists. Every now and then, I'm part of it. Not only because I don't really have a choice most of the time, but I appreciate looking good, and playing dressup virtually. Being lesbian, it kinda panders to me.
Still, like I said, that market is about all there is as far as women go. Frankly that "market" isn't saving the game industry it seems.

 

[Story]

Sorry if I didn't quote some of the people who answered me, this thread is moving pretty quickly.

Yet who is to say Anita didn't notice this trend in video games, decided to explore it farther and found the evidence she needed to support it?

If this were the case, she'd have sources to site, since she'd have done actual research. And so many of her points wouldn't be taken out of context.

This is also a form of cherry picking. As someone in this thread said earlier, I can easily say that Story "is a neo-nazi and supports child prostitution" then look over all of your comments, pick them apart and arrange them in a way that supports my claim.

Cherry picking is also dishonest.

Lastly, she's not working with literature. Her subject matter might be games, but the overarching message is social political in nature.

Ah I see now. However, how is it that Anita is able to look at the whole context of her arguments in a video format? More over, if her point is that many women are kidnapped in video games just to drive the plot why do these other contexts matter so long as they aren't contradictory to what she is supporting?

Edit:
Though I do very much agree with her social political argument being pretty weak.

I think that's probably what she did! It isn't difficult to notice some of the less female friendly aspects of games, or the predisposition towards white male protagonists. But don't you agree that it's kind of pathetic to go from a screenshot of Princess Zelda being held captive by Ganondorf, to a conclusion that she's a passive piece of property, without ever mentioning that she's also a ninja-wizard?

Actually she did mention that to be fair. Only she claimed it was short lived as, after Zelda resumed her more stereotypical female look, she was taken out of the action almost immediately.

 

[Draconalis]

Ah I see now. However, how is it that Anita is able to look at the whole context of her arguments in a video format? More over, if her point is that many women are kidnapped in video games just to drive the plot why do these other contexts matter so long as they aren't contradictory to what she is supporting?

Honestly, allow me to re-link something to you. I'm watching it now as we speak.

It can explain matters much better than I, as they followed Anita much closer than I do. She's pretty much a non-entity on my radar. I watched her video once, a long time ago, and I barely remember the details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGFWQEQUT5g

 

[SummerOtaku]

Eh. I dislike feminism because even moderate feminists tends to just assume that 'men are teh evulz' is the default way to contextualise everything, and either cherry-pick facts that support this, or skew things that don't support it so they seem like they do. It's a dogmatic approach and not at all in step with proper critical thinking. Or err... honesty. Plus I'm frankly fucking tired of people telling me that my internal motivations are sex and subjugating women (for the lulz or something?) and nothing else.

'Men are evil' is not feminism. That is like saying christians hate the gays. Some who claim to be christian do but that's not a principal of christianity at all. In fact, isn't it 'judge not and love thy neighbor' more in line with christian thought?

So NO. If someone says they are a feminist and hate men and find men evil or whatever, they are not really feminists. Feminists feel men and women are EQUAL so saying men are evil is right out the window on the very first point.

So you do not dislike feminism.

In fact the whole 'your internal motivations are sex and subjugating women' is exactly the sort of thing feminisim is fighting against (gender roles and stereotypes of patriarchy).

Therefore, my friend, you might actually be a feminist yourself.

 

[wulf3n]

Spoiler

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/10/7922/
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/mar/06/women.games

http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had

http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/
http://uk.gamespot.com/features/fear-of-a-woman-warrior-6404142/
http://www.gamespot.com/news/naughty-dog-insisted-on-female-testers-for-the-last-of-us-6406619
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evI5pF5h8Ck
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 a point made in the form of a joke
http://indigitainment.com/2013/05/08/indigenous-determination-in-game-space/
http://www.toybox-games.jp/english0107.html
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-03-20-bastion-developer-teases-transistor-for-pax-east
http://lesbiangamers.com/2008/05/farcry-2-female-character-fiasco/

See? A whole lot of "no girls allowed" vibes.

I've always seen it as a more "don't care if your here" vibe. Which is arguably more insulting.

 

[Story]

Ah I see now. However, how is it that Anita is able to look at the whole context of her arguments in a video format? More over, if her point is that many women are kidnapped in video games just to drive the plot why do these other contexts matter so long as they aren't contradictory to what she is supporting?

Honestly, allow me to re-link something to you. I'm watching it now as we speak.

It can explain matters much better than I, as they followed Anita much closer than I do. She's pretty much a non-entity on my radar. I watched her video once, a long time ago, and I barely remember the details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGFWQEQUT5g

Thanks for the link, but I just watched this video, and disagreed with most of it.
Plus, to be honest, I didn't particularity care for the way he addressed Anita. He felt the need to pointlessly insult her many times which tarnished even his truly valid points.

 

[blackrave]

Ok, I've just read few pages of this thread and now my head hurts.
I fell for trap of That-who-shall-not-be-named
FUCK IT!!!
It was the last goddamn time!
I was the earliest person who said that "defiance is our greatest weapon"
So please stop react to this subpar person
Let her persona dissolve.

NO MORE!
NO MORE!
NO MORE!
NO MORE!
NO MORE!
NO MORE!
NO MORE!

 

[Draconalis]

Thanks for the link, but I just watched this video, and disagreed with most of it.
Plus, to be honest, I didn't particularity care for the way he addressed Anita. He felt the need to pointlessly insult her many times which tarnished even his truly valid points.

I've been pausing alot and haven't encountered any insults yet.

So far, I agree with what he's said though.