The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[Imp_Emissary]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

I love you too, RJ.
But that can wait for later.

First, I would like to tell ya about one thing Anita commented on in the videos that didn't have to do with gender, that could arguably be a bigger problem with bad[sub](or at least not always as varied)[/sub] representation of men and women in video games.

That was about the large number of games that use combat/violence as the primary way for the players to interact with the world around them.

There are games that give a few more options. Like the Bioware&Bethesda games that let you talk your way out of situations. Or Metal Gear games that normally let you sneak past most enemies/knock them out instead of killing them.
That said, even if a game lets you not kill the enemies, it doesn't mean they don't have the player be "non-violent".

Not that violent video games can't have neat stories, but the kinds of stories they can tell is a shorter list because of this limitation.

Now for the love.

Spoiler: *Turns RJ into a cat, then Sloths RJ*

 

[mic1402]

Guys, What ever happened to the thing where we found out anita wasn't a fan of games and was just lying for profit?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I think part of my point was that you are more likely to find female characters in places where you find more complex characters in general. As you move away from generic people shaped sacks of flour to actual characters, the likelihood of a female character increases (probably in relation to the developers caring more about the story and less about general appeal to the largest demographic. This may also fit well with understanding of buying habits of gamers based on gender.

I really hadn't noticed the trend of complex characters = more likely to find female characters. I still don't really see it.

But because of that, yeah, by going after their main audience (wouldn't say dude-bro demographic, the 15-30 male demographic is the same one targeted by not just fighting and fps after all, and certainly gets attempts to appeal by every demographic because of how profitable it can be and how reliably so) whenever the option is available, they would probably choose to represent the current most profitable demographic base rather then a lesser one out of simple practicality.

I would say the dudebro demographic. Nah, I'm just kidding. they're a part of it, though.
How reliable is the demographic when only a few companies really make successful games off them, though?

Add to that over-scrutiny about any female character, the chance of backlash for not having a "positive" female character (which in games where there is almost no character, wouldn't be too surprised to see some controversy pop up in relation to that), the notion that many people just don't care the gender of the character if gameplay is fun and the greater chance that an artist or graphic designer will be male that would have a chance of self-insertion, and we start to really get a grasp why things end up with fewer female protagonists. And that is to say nothing of the cycle effect of female protagonist games historically doing worse financially meaning they are less likely to be bet on or supported to the same effect, further decreasing the chance they will be a break-out hit.

I understand the fear of overscrutiny, but it's like dancing when you don't think you can. You gotta get out there, and do it anyhow.

Overscrutiny happens when there's little to scrutinize.
If you're looking for a piece of straw 3 inches long, looking an entire bail of hay vs a handful will likely net more positive results. Moreover, it's harder to notice all the individual pieces of straw you aren't looking for unless you're going through every piece for that one perfect piece instead of settling for something close enough.

Like I said, guys scrutinize people like Kratos coz I have seen mention of people not like being distilled into crude angry rage-a-holics, but not so much that it's anywhere to the degree most female protagonists are met. Likely because there's lots of alternatives to Kratos, though at one time you might not have guessed with the God of War inspired games like Dante's Inferno, and Darksiders.

Developers risk similar scrutiny every time they put out a guy protagonist. I mean Assassin's Creed put out several non white guys with short brown hair. Who's hating on them for what they look like?
Nintendo risked it with nearly every link re-design. As much hate as some designs got, I doubt they got so much scrutiny they'll never use some of those designs again.

All of which does suck, both for variety sake, as well as representation, though is still understandable in a rational sense which makes it both hard to attack without seeming unrealistically idealistic at times, and hard to find ways to change it as it is not a result of ideology so much as conservative business behavior and risk assessment practicality.

I dunno about this. They haven't done anything to adjust it because they feel their current model works, yet it seems like reality isn't supporting it.

It sucks to say it, but it makes more sense as a company to go with a male protagonist, so most will choose that path. Male characters don't have the pressure of having to represent the entire gender they are assigned, are more likely to appeal to the largest paying demographic, don't prevent women from playing the game and even if it may turn some away it is still likely less then if it was female character turning away males, and is more likely to not get bad press for not having female characters then if they had some and it didn't fit the ideals of a journalist or researcher who wanted to make a storm in a teacup that week.

Or we could damn them even harder!!

But seriously, if they refuse to address the criticisms, then are we expected to stop criticising them for it? the problem's still there.
If the criticism is to go away, the problem must be addressed. The solution is kinda simple. If a developer wants to make a female protagonist, let them. That gets more out there, when the rough early period passes, they'll probably closer into the clear than than they are now.
People criticize because people want more female protagonits, so with more out there, hopefully in some decent variety, the criticisms will lessen.

Companies are already being blasted either way.

If we want to change things, we have to figure out how to change what causes companies to do what they do in the first place. I think part of it would have to be not supporting the likes of Anita though. It is easy to blame the industry for being so conservative, but when the community itself is ready to lynch them for any failure, or even not meet the personal ideal of some ideological critic should they even try to make female characters, I don't blame them for not. And while part of the reason female characters are scrutinized the way they are is because of lack of them, every game is an individual production and the developers are not going to risk their game and money in order to make the field less hostile towards their competitors in the future. Why risk their neck and reputation, especially when a large game flopping can be closure, when they already have a stable option with greater possible reward for less risk?

Anita's an unusual case. I can't say I like the way she presents things. Putting aside personal attacks against her, too.
Thing is she has a point. Several. If all of her points are getitng dismissed odds are you probably see no problems with the industry. I could be wrong, though.

Games with female protagonists doing worse is often a matter of quality of the game (Generally lacking when it comes to women. Wonder why?), lack of advertisement, and generally just not giving it the push most male only games get that succeede, so of course they're going to under perform. And so they think all games with female leads are going to underperform. And we enter the past 13 years of little representation with games with female characters nearly set up to fail.

More reward, less risk, I get that. Thing is, it's not all that safe. I mean a lot of companies are failing. A lot of companies have failed recently. Some of them even played it safe.
Sure some companies are bulletproof, but most just aren't and I think those smaller companies are trying to be too much like the larger companies. It's a business model that might be worth following, but it involves following a niche that's already full so it's only good for the companies that are successful. The rest of the smaller companies have to compete against them, though which leads to failing.

 

[RJ 17]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

I love you too, RJ.
But that can wait for later.

First, I would like to tell ya about one thing Anita commented on in the videos that didn't have to do with gender, that could arguably be a bigger problem with bad[sub](or at least not always as varied)[/sub] representation of men and women in video games.

That was about the large number of games that use combat/violence as the primary way for the players to interact with the world around them.

There are games that give a few more options. Like the Bioware&Bethesda games that let you talk your way out of situations. Or Metal Gear games that normally let you sneak past most enemies/knock them out instead of killing them.
That said, even if a game lets you not kill the enemies, it doesn't mean they don't have the player be "non-violent".

Not that violent video games can't have neat stories, but the kinds of stories they can tell is a shorter list because of this limitation.

Now for the love.

Spoiler: *Turns RJ into a cat, then Sloths RJ*

Look, all I was trying to say was that I don't see what all the hub-bub - for or against - Anita is all about. She seems to me like a female Rush Limbaugh of the gaming industry. Now with that said...

Spoiler: *Breaks Free Of The Dreaded Sloth-Hold By Using One Of His Ultimate Techniques*

 

[Something Amyss]

Thunderf00t attacked her implying she claimed the Dansel in Distress trope was invented by video games, even though she pointed out it existed in classic literature.

In fairness, Thunderf00t is full of crap and it didn't start with Anita. Feminists threaten his special snowflake status.

Well, no. She's not a con artist. It's just that America loves the underdog. (and that love sometimes defies logic and reason).

But again, you have shifted away from the point in question.

Sort of. It's not okay to violate copyright laws just because you don't have money (of course), but it's a grey area.

It's really not a grey area.

You really didn't contradict yourself in that previous post, I'm sorry for that. But in one of your next posts - see below.

Especially since I didn't make one of the two statements you presented as contradictory. Which was the point here.

That is a sarcastic statement, so you're implying that complainers shouldn't watch her videos.

No, I'm outright mocking a specific branch of people who say they cannot stand to watch her, yet still do. There's a large difference, and I'd like to think we can be adult enough here to not pretend they're the same thing. You know, because they're not.

If you inferred otherwise, this likely goes to your comprehension skills. It's not what I said by any margin.

And here you're implying that people should watch her videos before complaining. Which is true - they really should if they haven't yet.

Well, they should, but I wasn't implying that they should. In fact, the point here was more to point out the flaws in generalising. It turned his mentality around on him by making a blanket accusation.

Granted, a lot of people who are criticising her attribute to her things she doesn't say. I suspect they haven't watched her stuff, and if they're going to criticise her, they certainly should be informed first. That's still not contradictory.

That wasn't a false dichotomy. Because it really is binary choice here - you either watch those videos, or you don't.
If there's a third option, do tell.

Well, you falsely attributed a contradictory set of choices to me. If the issue is "watch or don't watch," fine. But then, since you say those are the only two choices, and that's what's at issue, why bring it up?

You brought it up because of the extra issue you tried to tack on to me, in part by quoting someone else. Don't be dishonest, especially on a web forum where your previous statements are still visible.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Look at that! This fan hasn't even seen the videos, or knows what it is she is saying.

Yet, is willing to also comment anyway, and pay attention to the issue! To spread the word!
Just like the first wave of fans at the announcement of the kickstarter!

That, Zachary Amaranth, is dedication!
That, Zachary Amaranth, is generosity!

By all means, don't let me get in the way of your jovial sarcasm parade - at least...I hope that's sarcasm you're attempting - but just for the record, the only --- you know what? Nevermind. I'm not gonna bite. For all intents and purposes, you're right, Imp. I shouldn't have even bothered commenting in this topic.

I love you too, RJ.
But that can wait for later.

First, I would like to tell ya about one thing Anita commented on in the videos that didn't have to do with gender, that could arguably be a bigger problem with bad[sub](or at least not always as varied)[/sub] representation of men and women in video games.

That was about the large number of games that use combat/violence as the primary way for the players to interact with the world around them.

There are games that give a few more options. Like the Bioware&Bethesda games that let you talk your way out of situations. Or Metal Gear games that normally let you sneak past most enemies/knock them out instead of killing them.
That said, even if a game lets you not kill the enemies, it doesn't mean they don't have the player be "non-violent".

Not that violent video games can't have neat stories, but the kinds of stories they can tell is a shorter list because of this limitation.

Now for the love.

Spoiler: *Turns RJ into a cat, then Sloths RJ*

Look, all I was trying to say was that I don't see what all the hub-bub - for or against - Anita is all about. She seems to me like a female Rush Limbaugh of the gaming industry. Now with that said...

Spoiler: *Breaks Free Of The Dreaded Sloth-Hold By Using One Of His Ultimate Techniques*

Very well. If you love something, you have to let it go. ;p

As for Anita, I don't see the similarities. For one she's not quite as...Bombastic as Rush.
Though, that is my perspective, not yours.

Green grass is in the eye of a beholder, and what not. ;D

 

[Warachia]

1: The first giant bomb list is hillariously short. I think you meant the long unsorted list that goes back to the dawn of gaming and counts games where you have to play the game first as a guy to unlock a woman to play as, or play as a woman for even the briefrst part of the game. Pretty sure foreign language games are in there, too. That's not really helpful, nor does it offer a lot of hope for the future.
http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/3015-2287/characters/

2: The second list counts women who aren't the main boss, and also counts women that join your party, and stop being antagonists and become NPCs in your group. That wasn't quite what the guy was getting at, I think, when he said women as the main villain, plus you play as a woman.

The third list is pretty short, and repeditive, too. Most of the games are on steam, though there are some that have gotten to consoles. Not sure if I mentioned it, but my laptop isn't exactly a gaming machine, and I utilize it more for social matters, and work than gaming.

Visual novel games. Thank you. Shouldn't be too demanding on my system.

What's sexist about princess maker? I'm more irritated that it's basically PC exclusive. But do you play as the princess, or the guy raising her? I forget. pretty sure it's the latter.

I'm not really looking at AAA so much as wanting to focus on console games, to be blunt. I recently got a 2ds to try and get away from my problems with console games.
Not everyone wants to game purely on the indie circuit either. Believe me, i don't. Do note I said purely. Doesn't mean I won't play an indie game.

I do know of games women like to play, being one.
Gender neutral genres are murky, and generally not what I'm talking about in games with female protagonists.

Yes, my list is very selective. It's about female protagonists in games where you only play as female. That's the whole point of what I'm talking about. It certainly helps to have sights set on console games that came out in the past 5 years, and games coming out.

And why not play as an ugly woman every once in a while?

I'm sorry, but your argument is ridiculous, so because you think the lists are short you are just going to almost entirely ignore their whole argument? Vicsor's list has hundreds of games on it, divided into different categories (ones where you only play as a female too), although I'm sure you read it because if you didn't you wouldn't have changed arguments, you were asking for indie games then say you don't wan't indie games, but then you have a vague statement after that to try (and fail) to not sound like a hypocrite, either that or you are really unclear in your wording, "I'm not really looking at AAA so much as wanting to focus on console games," which ARE AAA games, "I recently got a 2ds to try and get away from my problems with console games" so you don't want to focus on consoles then, make up your mind please.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Crowd funding isn't a magical cure. People can't treat it like a pre-order because, well, lets look at Doublefine's attempt at it. They asked for money. They got the money, then they found out they needed a lot more money. It's not so simple as to just do it.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/03/double-fine-kickstarter-debacle/

Kickstarter's still new, too. And not everyone likes digital transactions, me being one of them.

You are right, Crowd Funding isnt the cure, but it is one step on the road to the cure.

People can say "I want X, I want X, I want X!" and the publishers MIGHT take notice and try to release something similar to X, it wont be big budget, and it wont be a primetime game as they are unsure of it. This would likely lead to it being fairly low quality and ignored or get low reviews.

Where as if people say "I want X, I want X, I want X!" and Crowd funding game goes "Ok, I am making X, here is what will be in it!" and if it is quality, and it raises 3 million or so in funding from people, or 5 million, or 10, or 25, ect Publishers will take notice. They will be able to reasonably assume if they put a million or two into X game they will be able to get that out and then some based on the demand.

I don't doubt Crowdfunding can help the industry, and I don't doubt that the prospect of making money will raise the attention of the industry (sorta. I question the business sense of an industry that's shrunk violently), however crowdfunding will have to get hammered out more. It seems simple enough, but we're pretty much only seeing the surface. Like I said, so much can go wrong.

I really don't know if crowdfunding will reach the millions. It seems improbable to me, really. Like I said, it's new, and untested.
Some people, like me, don't like digitally moving their money around. If I want to buy something on XBL, PSN, or Nintendo shop, I buy a card, input the code, then puchase. I prefer getting stuff from brick and mortars.

What crowdfunding -can- do, though, is perhaps use a pledge system to guage interest, and use the crowdfunding for assistance in development costs. I don't know how well it'll work, but it seems mroe reasonable than asking people to pay for the game's development entirely before hand.

I'm hoping that my vague want in wanting more female protagonists is going to be noticed, but sometihng similar to it is kinda weird to think about. Or just a buncha guy games.
Because not all of them are likely to make the same female character exactly, we'll have variety as a side bonus, the way I figure it.
I'm not terribly picky about the female protagonsits they present, more what systems they're on. Unless they all look like the woman from X-Blades as that'd be a bit much.
I'm just hoping for some law of probability to kick in that with many female protagonists, they all will be unique.

The smaller games to better fit demands idea is a nice idea, though. As much as I loathe Ubisoft for saying they think Beyond Good and Evil is a mistake, and giving flak for Child of Light, making Assassin's Creed Liberation HD for ps3 and sellling it for 19.99 and Blood Dragon on the cheap (I forget the exact cost) seems like a move for making smaller scale games that can better fit more niche demands.
Hopefully the middle range cost games will help create a new business model revolving around them.
Which could lead to some crowd funding utilizing games.

Crowdfunding, thinking about it sounds like a good suppliment to cover costs instead of covering the whole thing.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

In way of the samurai, you are called "he" "him" and generally referred to as a man no matter what. There's no ambiguous language like in Saints Row 2,3, and 4.

That's hilarious. I don't think you can take that to heart. I definitely wouldn't take it to mean anything since WOTS has some of the worst localization I've seen. The English is horrible, as are the graphics, the animations, the Japanese voice acting... I actually am a fan of the series, honest.

Oh, no I don't take it to heart. I love the series, myself! The sword play, the character customization, the wackiness. The series is a welcome balance of things.
I didn't buy WotS 1, 3, and 4 (I missed 2.) coz I hate the series. It's largely coz they lewt you customize the main character into looking like a woman, and the pseudo-lesbianism is kinda nice.

Most of the stuff in the series doesn't bother me.

I'm just saying that gender select games don't exactly create a deep story taking into account gender.

 

[IceForce]

What I find to be scary is the fact that the article that kicked all this off was allowed to be published in the first place. I mean I think it's safe to assume that the mods/staff know what these threads always end up turning into considering how fast any other threads about the subject end up getting locked before they can get too bad.

Not this time though. "Oh what's that? You're a content creator? Then go right ahead, fan the flames as much as you please without responding to anything in the resulting mess of a thread. Don't worry we're not gonna lock it, we'll just warn/ban/suspend as many people as we need to until everyone gets tired of shouting at each other".

... or until there's no one left to ban.

Interestingly, this thread will not be locked. They are not allowed to lock pages created by content creators like bob. If this could be locked it would have been locked on page 2.

Which is pretty fucking stupid, it has to be said.

If any ordinary forum user had've met Sarkeesian in real life, and created a thread and wrote a piece about her, the thread would've been locked 2 or 3 pages in, with basically a big middle finger from the mods.
But because this article/thread was made a contributor, it's allowed to continue, no matter how bad it gets.

It's bullshit. Why is there one rule for contributors, and another rule for everyone else?
The rules here need a massive overhaul.

 

[Warachia]

I don't really think the Sorceress is as much a parody as she is a amalgamation of cliched elements used in a non-cliched way, but that's off topic, and if I start I'll never stop

Dragons Crown is a good example of the how I believe the whole issue is turning into a self fulfilling prophecy or catch 22.

I know this is off topic, but that's EVERY character in Dragon's Crown, every charatcer is "a[n] amalgamation of cliched elements used in a non-cliched way", singling out the sorceress without addressing any of the other characters is being intellectually dishonest.

 

[Warachia]

What I find to be scary is the fact that the article that kicked all this off was allowed to be published in the first place. I mean I think it's safe to assume that the mods/staff know what these threads always end up turning into considering how fast any other threads about the subject end up getting locked before they can get too bad.

Not this time though. "Oh what's that? You're a content creator? Then go right ahead, fan the flames as much as you please without responding to anything in the resulting mess of a thread. Don't worry we're not gonna lock it, we'll just warn/ban/suspend as many people as we need to until everyone gets tired of shouting at each other".

... or until there's no one left to ban.

Interestingly, this thread will not be locked. They are not allowed to lock pages created by content creators like bob. If this could be locked it would have been locked on page 2.

Which is pretty fucking stupid, it has to be said.

If any ordinary forum user had've met Sarkeesian in real life, and created a thread and wrote a piece about her, the thread would've been locked 2 or 3 pages in, with basically a big middle finger from the mods.
But because this article/thread was made a contributor, it's allowed to continue, no matter how bad it gets.

It's bullshit. Why is there one rule for contributors, and another rule for everyone else?
The rules here need a massive overhaul.

What generally happens is the mods post a message saying that they will hand out much larger penalties for smaller infractions to keep everyone in line, the reason they lock a thread is because they don't want to have to ban people, and they want to differentiate between user crated content and contributor content, why they choose not to lock contributor content though is beyond me.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Snip.

Allow me to just thank you for being easily the most rational, logical and non-aggressive person on this forum to ever disagree with me on this matter. It's unbelievably refreshing to read a response that isn't a direct attack on my character and actually addresses the point I was trying to make. I wish more people would take a leaf from your book.

I'm also right there beside you with my rose tinted goggles from the 90's. I was a 90's kid after all. I grew up with games from Crash Bandicoot and Abe's Oddyssey to games like Parasite Eve and Threads of Fate. There were male and female protagonists in those times, and I was probably just too young to care at the time but I felt like I cared more about if the game was worth my time rather than whether the characters specifically were good or bad.

I do admit that the well of female protagonists has dried up in the last decade, but I feel like the quantity has declined but there has certainly been an increase in quality recently. For every X-Blades there's a Tomb Raider 2013 and for every Dead or Alive there's a Street Fighter.

If you don't mind me doing so, I feel like there are at least a few games from recent years that never get mentioned and they display everything I'd like to see when representing women in games. Very few people mention the Atelier series of games. The Atelier games on PS3/Vita easily have 3 of the most down to earth and fantastic female protagonists ever written, in my opinion. There are no damsels in distress, no fighting fuck toys and as far as I know its target audience is actually girls, yet I honestly find it one of the most enjoyable experiences in gaming.

I can think of more than this, and have actually considered making a thread about it, where people can specifically recommend good examples of female protagonists/heroines. I feel like complaining about the bad can only do so much to bring awareness to the issue, while openly praising the games that do it right and showing support both in spirit and in cash can only show that there is a market for such games.

You're welcome! And thank you for saying that!
It's a pleasure to be rational, and non-aggressive. :3

I don't know about quality, honestly. Tomb raider felt stripped down from what it was. The puzzles were optional but definitely made the game easier, for one. Most of the game is cover based third person shooter. Lots of people noticed the disconnect in Lara not wanting to be a fighting machine, and yet she is, and the disconnect doesn't really close until the end.
The sense of adventure is kinda lacking. I'm not sure I ever swam under water.
It's a good, functional game, though. I enjoyed playing it.
It's definitely a step up from X-blades.

Unless you mean quality of representation, then, yeah, rebooted Lara is definitely a step up from X-Blades.

SF, and DoA, I'm not gunna comment on. Frankly they're not super far apart in terms of representation. The larger street fighter roster seems to put it ahead though in some areas.

I was seriously considering the Atelier series, but I keep hearing that they have a set time limit in which to do things. I'm not a fan of having to be in a hurry to complete a game, and my ability to schedule is, well, not great. I barely manage the Sims.
From what I understand, though, pretty much everything you've said is right on the money. I do love the character designs. Still, isn't the goal of Atelier Ayesha to save your sister? Pardon my ignorance as far as te story goes.

I agree that only complaining doesn't help. If I hear about a game on the way with a female protagonist, I try and spread the word, and be happy about it. I made a thread talking about Child of Light, and AC: Liberation HD in hopes of getting word about it out.

 

[wulf3n]

I know this is off topic, but that's EVERY character in Dragon's Crown, every charatcer is "a[n] amalgamation of cliched elements used in a non-cliched way", singling out the sorceress without addressing any of the other characters is being intellectually dishonest.

Every chara[ct]er is likely to have an abundance of nuance in their design and require their own separate analysis.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

While they don't have a hive mind, they can make a female character for an initial entry, then look at what the competition is doing, then wonder what hasn't been done yet, then try to do that. Within reason, of course.

I agree developers should't be the only ones criticized, and sometimes are criticized for things beyond their control. I blame the indurestry as a whole on that note. I know it's not all of the industry, but it's enough that it's probably easier to root out those that haven't rubbed me the wrong way.

Developers get flak for male creations don't they? What's the difference? Well, aside from grievous screwups like Other M, I suppose.

I would imagine they do, just not to the levels seen by a poorly implemented female character. And as far as I'm aware we've never seen an equivalent uproar to a male character as Other M or Dragons Crown. This is arguably because no male character has been handled in the same way, but still lends to the fear that stuffing up a female character carries a higher consequence than stuffing up a male character.

It doesn't even matter personalitywise as Dragon's Crown's Sorceress has shown us. She was supposed to be a parody. Thing is she's the norm. it kinda blew up around her because of that.

Until developers work on getting more female characters out there, what few that we do get are going to get immense amounts of attention because they're so rare.

I don't really think the Sorceress is as much a parody as she is a amalgamation of cliched elements used in a non-cliched way, but that's off topic, and if I start I'll never stop

Dragons Crown is a good example of the how I believe the whole issue is turning into a self fulfilling prophecy or catch 22.

I agree that they don't get as much flak with male models as they do female models. And you're right. Odds are males have never been handled like that.
Maybe if females weren't handled like that, and more like guys, something positive could happen? Have they ever been handled like the guys get handled?
That fear is going to have to be gotten over, IMO, or else the gaming industry will never get passed being called sexist, and what not.

Women's representation in games is a mess for certain.

 

[VanQ]

From what I understand, though, pretty much everything you've said is right on the money. I do love the character designs. Still, isn't the goal of Atelier Ayesha to save your sister? Pardon my ignorance as far as te story goes.

I agree that only complaining doesn't help. If I hear about a game on the way with a female protagonist, I try and spread the word, and be happy about it. I made a thread talking about Child of Light, and AC: Liberation HD in hopes of getting word about it out.

The goal of Ayesha is to save your sister, but not in the conventional Damsel in Distress kinda way. I don't want to get too much into it as I haven't put much time into Ayesha yet and don't want to accidentally spoil anything.

The Atelier series I was referring to in specific were the games set in Arland.
Atelier Rorona: The Alchemist of Arland
Atelier Totori: The Adventurer of Arland
Atelier Meruru: The Apprentice of Arland

These three games are all set in the same setting and continuity and are seperate from the other Atelier games. When it comes to keeping a schedule in check, they're not nearly as difficult as some people make them out to be. The strictest of the three, Rorona, gives you at last 3 months of time to meet the required deadlines to not fail the story. Apparently they will be bringing the game more up to date with its modern incarnations with Atelier Rorona+ on Vita.

I do love Atelier Rorona, but the UI and alchemy/battle systems on the PS3 version are extremely outdated at this point. There is nothing wrong with skipping it and going straight to Totori, with its updated UI and less strict emphasis on deadline. You have to reach certain ranks by certain days but everything you do from performing Alchemy, exploring the world and completing assignments given by the Adventurer's Guild will give you points towards that.

Meruru is even less strict on time and has more of an emphasis on building your kingdom. That's something I should note, by the way, Meruru is the Princess of her country and the protagonist. She takes the responsibility onto herself to save her failing kingdom and to develop it and make it a better place for all that live there.

Princess Meruru may be just one Princess out of many but she is the very anti-thesis of everything Anita has complained about in her videos. She's outgoing, intelligent (when she needs to be), easy going, caring and a damn fine ruler and role model. She's not oversexualized and she dresses like a rational human being.

I highly recommend giving the Atelier games a try. They really are overlooked masterpieces in my opinion. And more people should talk about them!

 

[Rebel_Raven]

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So let's just get this straight.
You want a game that:
1. Features a female protagonist
2. That only features a female protagonist
3. Where the protagonist's gender (being female) is integral to the story
4. Where the story is told from what you perceive to be a woman's point of view
5. That is on consoles and preferably not indie.
Feel free to correct any of those as you deem fit.

The first two criteria seem like convenient ways of artificially cutting down the list to me. Not only because of how it assumes great generalisations of the writing of hundreds of games, but also because of the following.

The third point relies on the assumption that most games featuring exclusively male protagonists have their gender integral to the story. And that's simply not the case. Gears of War would be no different if it featured Michelle Fenix looking for her husband, Far Cry 3 would be no different if it featured Janice Brody rescuing her friends. The latest Lara Croft would be no different (besides the title) if it featured Lars Croft instead of Lara.
The complaint summarised in the third point applies equally to both male and female characters. It is an issue of personal preference rather than a gender related ethical issue.

For the fourth point, what exactly is the difference between stories told from a neutral point of view and stories told from a woman's point of view? After all, if the protagonist in these "gender neutral" games is technically female doesn't that make it a female point of view?
I'm hesitant to say so, but it's almost as if you're saying "I want it written from a stereotypical woman's point of view." If not, what other criteria you would define this "woman's point of view" with?

The fifth point explains a lot. You're looking in the wrong place. Video games have traditionally been seen as juvenile and for children, yet even within the field of video games consoles have traditionally been considered juvenile and for children. The games with the most progressive and mature writing have always been on PC and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
Plus the only difference between and indie game and a non-indie game is that the indie games haven't made much money yet. If this specific type of story you desire can only be found in indie games it probably mean that a game with that type of story hasn't been able to make a significant amount of money, and does not warrant the risk of investment in a mainstream game.

Frankly I think you're setting your standards too high and you would be disappointed in the story of video games even if you were male.

I don't agree with your views on one, and 2. It's reasonable to me since guys get 1, and 2 all the time.

On 3, Gears of war you might have a point on.
Farcry 3? I think it'd make a huge difference what with Citra, and the pregnancy theme here, and there.
The recent Tomb Raider seemed like it took too much from the Uncharted series to the point you're probably right on that.
I don't agree that applies equally.
Lets look at Red Dead Redemption. Jane marston having her wife, and son held hostage while Jane Marston has to do the government's bidding? Maybe if it were her husband instead of wife. Then there's Bonnie's flirting with John which would prolly have to be altered. I really don't think they'd interact the same if John were Jane.

Similar comes up when we come up to Michael in GTAV.

Getting away from Rockstar, Catherine would definitely get a bit warped if the protagonist were a woman, wouldn't it?

God of War? Again, family would have to be altered, wouldn't it? And the orgies. Unless there's going to be a somewhat rampant lesbian theme through the series, anyhow. I wouldn't complain, personally.

There's a lot of games where gender isn't interchangeable as freely as you insist. At least for guy protagonist games. mainly the ones where the guy has a romantic relationship with a woman, which is quite a few of them. As much of a fan as I am of LGBT themes, another area I think is sorely underserved, I don't think these plots would be what was envisioned for the male protagonists.

4: Because there's games out there that are male power fantasies told from a male point of view, seen through a male view.
Few games feel really neutral.
Basically it's a matter of experiencing the game as a female character. Not being reminded you're playing as a guy every second you're on the screen, and by every NPC that ever speaks to you. Yeah, it's tolerable every now and then to play as the opposite gender, but almost all the time?
I mean how is it neutral that you're reminded of the gender of the character you're playing all the time?

5: You're probably right as far as PC gaming being more mature, but that doesn't mean the console market can't catch up. I'd PC game if I felt like it was as easy as Console gaming, but most of my stints in PC gaming show that's not the case. Torchlight had issues with going into windowed mode, I can't run Vindictus worth a damn, I can't run warframe worth a damn, I tried to emulate road war 2000, a game from the Dos days, and it went hillariously bad. I got several free games from GoG, and most wouldn't run on my laptop, and I found out I miss a controller a lot. That said, controller compatibility is never guarenteed without possibly a program that's spyware for some place in china.
Modding wasn't as quick and easy as people make it out to be.
I'd have to use the PC exclusively for gaming. Heaven help me if I catch a virus on it somehow. And I'll have to remember to keep it optimized as PC performance tends to degrade as it keeps a lot of junk to take up space, fragment the disk, and slow it down in general.
Maybe next time I get a system, I'll get a more gaming aimed PC instead, though I doubt I'll have a ton to spend on it, and put up with all the headaches that come with PC gaming.
Oh, is it just me, or is it hard to get PC games from a brick, and mortar store?

The thing about making -a- game towards my request is that, well, like anyone, I'd assume, one game will never really cut it. Not forever. New experiences wil be craved, and it's unlikely a single game will ever cover them all. If such a perfect game were made, then the industry would prolly go broke.
So, yeah, you're right. I'd prolly be dissapointed on some levels with the game no matter what. It's why I'd want multiple games.

I mean, has any game ever perfectly suited all your needs from a videogame? If you ever wanted to hit some virutal person with a baseball bat, or you just wanted to sit down and admire your work sculpting a landscape, or build a home, or stealthily sneak into a building to steal someting valueable, play an RTS, amd so forth, would one game cover all of that?

I liek a wide variety of things in gaming. I'll play most any game under the sun if I can get my hands on it, even if I don't think I'll like it. It helps to have something I want, though. NBA Jam's a male dominated game as one would expect, but there's Team EA, and SSX, both of which have women, which brightened the hell out of my mood.

Racing games, tactical games, sims, RPGs, T/FPSes I love diversity. The only thing I don't dig is straight PvP. It tends to lead to me meeting a buncha people that give gaming a bad name. I'm unlucky like that.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

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All her "points" come on the backs of flawed assumptions and generalizations. This leads to an unfortunate circumstance that any "points" she is actually correct about turn out to be coincidental. I wholeheartedly disagree with just about all her "points" from a reasoned argument stand-point, and I do in fact think there are severe problems with the video game industry when it comes to gender issues.

At the same time, I think the problems with gender issues are mostly caused by greed of publishers and developers bowing to the publisher's every whim. Which means, the gender issues are caused by greed, not sexist attitudes. I do not think the video game industry is being sexist, there I said it. Are there sexists in the video game industry? Most likely, but then again, we are generalizing.

Further, this drying up of female characters is a symptom of the god awful AAA games system. There are plenty of indie games with good female characters and female protagonists. It is mostly the more visible AAA games where every decision made is based off of what their target audience wants, not what would make a better game.

And what is this target audience?

Males.

Sorry ladies, you spent too much time not being nearly as interested in video games as the guys, it is going to be an uphill battle to prove to these publishers that you are a significant enough target audience for them to start pandering to you when they have decades of data telling them it is mostly males playing their games.

I don't argue her delivery is flawed. I don't believe I ever have.

Ya know, I'm not gunna argue if the problems are sexist or not. I'm just happy you admit that you see them, but to me, it's by definition, sexism. Heck, oppression could prolly fit deifinition wise.

I don't see it as impossible for target audiences to change.
It's weird, thinking about the specefic targeting. For all this "greed" the industry is targeting one demographic really. And that demopgraphic is spending their money, potentially on the competition leaving less for the rest to get.
If male gamer 18-30 pays for product A, they're not gunna buy product B because their money already went to A. If they're fortunate enough to afford A, and B, what about competitior C? It's like squeezing water from a sponge. Said sponge can only give up so much water.
The lack of diversification of targeted markets may well end up detrimental.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

1: The first giant bomb list is hillariously short. I think you meant the long unsorted list that goes back to the dawn of gaming and counts games where you have to play the game first as a guy to unlock a woman to play as, or play as a woman for even the briefrst part of the game. Pretty sure foreign language games are in there, too. That's not really helpful, nor does it offer a lot of hope for the future.
http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/3015-2287/characters/

2: The second list counts women who aren't the main boss, and also counts women that join your party, and stop being antagonists and become NPCs in your group. That wasn't quite what the guy was getting at, I think, when he said women as the main villain, plus you play as a woman.

The third list is pretty short, and repeditive, too. Most of the games are on steam, though there are some that have gotten to consoles. Not sure if I mentioned it, but my laptop isn't exactly a gaming machine, and I utilize it more for social matters, and work than gaming.

Visual novel games. Thank you. Shouldn't be too demanding on my system.

What's sexist about princess maker? I'm more irritated that it's basically PC exclusive. But do you play as the princess, or the guy raising her? I forget. pretty sure it's the latter.

I'm not really looking at AAA so much as wanting to focus on console games, to be blunt. I recently got a 2ds to try and get away from my problems with console games.
Not everyone wants to game purely on the indie circuit either. Believe me, i don't. Do note I said purely. Doesn't mean I won't play an indie game.

I do know of games women like to play, being one.
Gender neutral genres are murky, and generally not what I'm talking about in games with female protagonists.

Yes, my list is very selective. It's about female protagonists in games where you only play as female. That's the whole point of what I'm talking about. It certainly helps to have sights set on console games that came out in the past 5 years, and games coming out.

And why not play as an ugly woman every once in a while?

I'm sorry, but your argument is ridiculous, so because you think the lists are short you are just going to almost entirely ignore their whole argument? Vicsor's list has hundreds of games on it, divided into different categories (ones where you only play as a female too), although I'm sure you read it because if you didn't you wouldn't have changed arguments, you were asking for indie games then say you don't wan't indie games, but then you have a vague statement after that to try (and fail) to not sound like a hypocrite, either that or you are really unclear in your wording, "I'm not really looking at AAA so much as wanting to focus on console games," which ARE AAA games, "I recently got a 2ds to try and get away from my problems with console games" so you don't want to focus on consoles then, make up your mind please.

Yes, I try and take into consideration what people have to offer. I read the lists. The lists are short, or one of my other problems with the lists, and they're largely ignoring consoles, hand helds, etc. which really shortens the list.

I don't think I ever asked for indie games. Mind pointing out whre I did? I don't have a huge amount of faith in the indie circuit to bring about change to the gaming industry, and my Laptop doesn't let me PC game much. Especially not in comfort. I'm not gunna ask for PC indie games, in other words.

I'm sorry, but Giana Sisters, Minecraft 360, and Terraria on PS3 are "AAA"? Assassins' Creed Liberation is AAA? Dynasty Warriors is AAA? Way of the Samurai is AAA? there's a lot of non AAA games on consoles as far as I'm concerned. AAA generally comes from Rockstar, EA, Ubisoft, and Square, and that's about it. AAA games get TV commercials and advertisement, and a lot of console games don't.
There's a lot of indie games, and not AAA games on PSN. Never heard of them? Probably because they don't have enough As.

I recently bought a 2ds because I'm fed up with PS3, 360, and WIIU (which just needs games, period, but monster hunter's just awesome.) generally focusing on guy only games.

The Nintendo handleld library (the reason I got a 2ds) is somewhat appealing with Pokemon Conquest, Harvest Moons, Pokemon, Style savvy, Rune factory, and a lot of games that would prolly never see the light of day on consoles... or even PC, at times and what feels like a more likely chance to have gender select (which is nice, but it's not going to fix my problems with the industry.) and games aimed at women more squarely, and light hearted games.
Not sure I'll get games like Rainbow Six Vegas 2 on it, though, so I'm keeping my consoles coz sometimes light hearted desires give way to wanting to use a shotgun, and hit people with baseball bats. Virtually of course. I'm not a terribly violent person in reality despite having several firearms, and archaic weapons, and go to turkey shoots now and then for fun.

I don't want to PC game. I've ran into too much trouble too often in trying to get a PC game working on my laptop, and frankly there's the occassional news of PC game screwups that wouldn't really happen on Consoles.
My laptop won't handle a lot of games, either.

It's likely me not being clear more than anything. Something I worry about a lot. It's kinda why i'm wordy. I'm trying to get my point across as clearly as possible. Sometimes it doesn't work, I guess.