The Problem with Piracy...

[Felated Show Pony]

And you have every right to think that.

I would say that society domineers against individuals for the sake of stability, and that there can be no just system without primary and complete freedom for the individual. Aka, an end to coercive government.

we both have the right to our opinions, but like i said, you can't convince people of your ideas by being morally outraged at them.

The last part is the entire point of this discussion

 

[tofulove]

And you have every right to think that.

I would say that society domineers against individuals for the sake of stability, and that there can be no just system without primary and complete freedom for the individual. Aka, an end to coercive government.

we both have the right to our opinions, but like i said, you can't convince people of your ideas by being morally outraged at them.

well i agree we all have the rights to our opinions, but we don't have the rights to steel. your freedom ends were another begins. you cant take some ones tv cause you want it. nore can you take a game some one made with out paying for there labor time and risk in making it. just because some thing is not physically tangenibal doesn't mean it has no value.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

And you have every right to think that.

I would say that society domineers against individuals for the sake of stability, and that there can be no just system without primary and complete freedom for the individual. Aka, an end to coercive government.

we both have the right to our opinions, but like i said, you can't convince people of your ideas by being morally outraged at them.

well i agree we all have the rights to our opinions, but we don't have the rights to steel. your freedom ends were another begins. you cant take some ones tv cause you want it. nore can you take a game some one made with out paying for there labor time and risk in making it. just because some thing is not physically tangenibal doesn't mean it has no value.

Here, you are right.

And I have never said that I have a 'right' to steal. It is just something that I can't bring myself not to do. Call me weak, because I probably am, but again I can't bring myself to effectively throw money away. Because, viewed from a certain angle, that's what it is.

 

[kazagistar]

I feel sympathy towards you. I was in the same situation when I was younger: $5 a week, a strong desire to play games, and the technical knowhow to pirate. Here is my solution; I pirated what I wanted to play, but I promised myself that I would absolutely purchase the games I enjoyed once I was older and had the money. Now I have about $300 dollars free spending money a month, and, pay attention here, I have FOLLOWED THROUGH. I own all the Blizzard games, all the X-Com games, all the Fallout games, and many more... some of them, I haven't even gotten around to playing since I purchased them, but that isn't the point.

Why would I spend money on these games now, when I have little or no gain from them? Sure, I could say it is because I held true to my moral principles, but the real truth is more selfish. I want more of these games, or similar games, so I essentially donate my money to the developers and publishers, slightly increasing the demand for said games, providing the funding to create more.

I still pirate every single game I play before I play it, but any game I actually enjoy I then purchase. Those that I like more then usual, I might also buy for my friends (Braid, for example). I believe that telling people to not consume media because they cannot afford it is absurd, but to not buy those games you truly love when you have the means to do so is just wrong and despicable.

 

[A-D.]

Personally i do download the occasional new game too, but for me that is not in the sense of "I want it but dont have the Money", its more of testing the actual Game instead of waiting for a Demo which might never come or only shows me half the content of the actual Game. So i download it, play it at least halfway or fully through and then, considering i liked it, the Game has Replay-value and so forth, i buy it. Did that with Fallout 3 before any of the DLCs came out, i have since bought the Game and any DLC available..and downloaded the occasional Mod too. So yes for me it really only comes down to two reasons, first and foremost, can my Computer run it and run it stable. No sense in me spending Money on a Game that might not run at all (happened to me already and they refused to refund me the game too, reasoning that its already opened and i might have made a copy of it) or is buggy as hell and therefore barely playable. The second reason as stated above is to find out if it is Fun for me to play and offers alot of Replay Value, you know, to actually play a game through twice. Of course nowadays there is also the option to rent alot games at a few stores but mostly im a very lazy bum and cant be bothered going to get it, or i would most likely forget to bring it back and that might end up with me spending a sum i could have gotten the game twice for. I lately bought Prototype, seeing as i was somewhat curious, strangely the game was very bland for me, repeating itself about 6 hours into the game. I also only spent under 24 Hours in total gameplay time to actually finish it, and it doesnt have any Replay-value at all, so basicly, i lost quite a bit of money on a game i played once and will probably never do again. Which is kinda the point really, most games nowadays just dont really offer any real reason to play a game twice or more anymore, so i can see why there is Piracy.

On the other Hand, one thing i dont understand is this, the Industry creates alot of CD Protection Software like Starforce and what have you, why? Just go to google and search for a crack to any game you can think of, you will at least find one workable one, if not more. Why go through the hassle of putting something like that in which might at the end actually hurt the paying customers (Starforce for example isnt as nice as one might believe) when the pirated Stuff either comes with a Crack already or there is one freely available? Of course you could still buy the game and then get the Crack to work around the Protection, its also an option, but most will just see that they can play the game for free, even if its just once.

Point is, im not justifying piracy but the problem might solve itself or at the very least be severly diminished if every Game Developer could for example offer their Game for free, over some Website or Gameportal, for testing. Basicly, like some MMOGs have 14 Day Trials, just let them download it once, they play it through and then they cant play it again, at least not without buying the full Product. That way the People who only do it for basicly testing it before spending Money on the product would very likely dont resort to "piracy" anymore. Its just a thought though..

On a sidenote, i also download certain Albums of Music, though in a more legal manner, i do own the original CDs but i dont like ripping them, so i download them instead to have a copy of them on my Harddrive, which i obviously also dont share with others. Its just my lazy way of avoiding to possibly damage my CDs or having to insert and remove them whenever i feel like listening to a certain Song. I dont download any other Media though, i can usually wait for Movies to come on tv or buy the dvd if i really want to see them (Spending 9 bucks or more to watch a movie once is quite high imho)

 

[sneak_copter]

Piracy (almost) killed the PC gaming industry, and that's what made me quit. It's also what made my buy a console, so I'd never have the option to do it as easily again.

 

[tofulove]

And you have every right to think that.

I would say that society domineers against individuals for the sake of stability, and that there can be no just system without primary and complete freedom for the individual. Aka, an end to coercive government.

we both have the right to our opinions, but like i said, you can't convince people of your ideas by being morally outraged at them.

well i agree we all have the rights to our opinions, but we don't have the rights to steel. your freedom ends were another begins. you cant take some ones tv cause you want it. nore can you take a game some one made with out paying for there labor time and risk in making it. just because some thing is not physically tangenibal doesn't mean it has no value.

Here, you are right.

And I have never said that I have a 'right' to steal. It is just something that I can't bring myself not to do. Call me weak, because I probably am, but again I can't bring myself to effectively throw money away. Because, viewed from a certain angle, that's what it is.

every thing i agree with but throwing money away, your spending your money for a game, if you think its not worth the money than don't bye it, every thing is worth the purchaser is willing to pay, if your not willing to pay than you don't want it enough. at least you amit that its not right and by so implying what your doing is wrong. which brings me to one of my first points, if you just say your a thief and thats how i am and some smuck on the internet not going to change me than there no point to argue any more. we have came to our conclusion steeling is wrong but you will do it any ways knowing its wrong. as long as you admit its wrong i have less of a problem than you trying to say its ok.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

I feel sympathy towards you. I was in the same situation when I was younger: $5 a week, a strong desire to play games, and the technical knowhow to pirate. Here is my solution; I pirated what I wanted to play, but I promised myself that I would absolutely purchase the games I enjoyed once I was older and had the money. Now I have about $300 dollars free spending money a month, and, pay attention here, I have FOLLOWED THROUGH. I own all the Blizzard games, all the X-Com games, all the Fallout games, and many more... some of them, I haven't even gotten around to playing since I purchased them, but that isn't the point.

Why would I spend money on these games now, when I have little or no gain from them? Sure, I could say it is because I held true to my moral principles, but the real truth is more selfish. I want more of these games, or similar games, so I essentially donate my money to the developers and publishers, slightly increasing the demand for said games, providing the funding to create more.

I still pirate every single game I play before I play it, but any game I actually enjoy I then purchase. Those that I like more then usual, I might also buy for my friends (Braid, for example). I believe that telling people to not consume media because they cannot afford it is absurd, but to not buy those games you truly love when you have the means to do so is just wrong and despicable.

Indeed, it seems you are in the same situation as me.

And, if what you say is true, then I hope to be as good a person as you monetarily-wise when I do grow up and have a life of my own. I consider myself to be a generally good human being, so one day I hope to give the money back. Maybe to charity, after all it'll probably do more good there.

 

[Delock]

I shall use this hypothetical situation then. Let's say you spend over a year on a certain product, putting everything you've got into it. You've worked so long, and during that time, you've had to pay for everything you buy using borrowed money that you "know" you will be getting back once your product is released to stores. The day finally comes, but expected sales are down. A LOT. Suddenly, you can't afford everything you once could, your debts keep mounting up, and you slowly start to waste away. Then you see someone with your product down the street. You go over and thank them, because they were one of the few to buy it. They shake their heads and say: "No, I didn't pay for this. I got it for free."

What would you do then?

For songs people download, this sums it up quite well http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20090925

 

[squid5580]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of your post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

So let me ask you this. How do you think they pay you for your work every week or 2 weeks? How is your paycheck funded? By the company's money of course. So what would happen if everyone who shops there developed your mentality. I mean it isn't hard to shopift from a store. It is all right there on the shelf all one has to do is pick it up and put it in thier pocket and walk away. Now if this practice persisted what do you think will happen to you as an employee? Either you won't get your paycheck for all of your work (regardless how easy or hard) or you are going to be out of a job. Do you think that is fair or right? Are you going to say its ok I no longer have a job because hey they wanted it and it was there easily accessible for them to take?

Now if you are talking some obscure title that you will never find on a store shelf, is never being made again, and no one will be hurt by you pirating it then that is a different story.

For those who posted condoning this I have to ask. How do you justify pirating as not stealing? That is my question. Is it because you are not taking something physical or tangible? Or is it because the law hasn't caught up to technology that you can claim it isn't stealing?

I have never once justified piracy as not stealing. Never, search through my posts on this thread: never.

And no, the sad fact is that it isn't right. And I wish I could convinve myself that effectively throwing away 25 pounds is worth it (morally, it is, logically, it isn't). And (not to make this seem like an incredibly deep topic, I know it really isn't) the arguement of morality v logic is really something that has controlled history.

Was it right to drop a bomb on Nagasaki? No. Was it logical? At the time, yes.

Where is the logic of exchanging little pieces of paper for happiness in the first place? Or for exchanging them for life sustaining substances? Or the logic of working for them? Afterall your time is invaluable but you still set aside hours of your life for them. Logically I should go into my nieghbors house kill him or her and take all the stuff I want. That is the end result of logic without morality.

 

[tofulove]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of your post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

So let me ask you this. How do you think they pay you for your work every week or 2 weeks? How is your paycheck funded? By the company's money of course. So what would happen if everyone who shops there developed your mentality. I mean it isn't hard to shopift from a store. It is all right there on the shelf all one has to do is pick it up and put it in thier pocket and walk away. Now if this practice persisted what do you think will happen to you as an employee? Either you won't get your paycheck for all of your work (regardless how easy or hard) or you are going to be out of a job. Do you think that is fair or right? Are you going to say its ok I no longer have a job because hey they wanted it and it was there easily accessible for them to take?

Now if you are talking some obscure title that you will never find on a store shelf, is never being made again, and no one will be hurt by you pirating it then that is a different story.

For those who posted condoning this I have to ask. How do you justify pirating as not stealing? That is my question. Is it because you are not taking something physical or tangible? Or is it because the law hasn't caught up to technology that you can claim it isn't stealing?

I have never once justified piracy as not stealing. Never, search through my posts on this thread: never.

And no, the sad fact is that it isn't right. And I wish I could convinve myself that effectively throwing away 25 pounds is worth it (morally, it is, logically, it isn't). And (not to make this seem like an incredibly deep topic, I know it really isn't) the arguement of morality v logic is really something that has controlled history.

Was it right to drop a bomb on Nagasaki? No. Was it logical? At the time, yes.

Where is the logic of exchanging little pieces of paper for happiness in the first place? Or for exchanging them for life sustaining substances? Or the logic of working for them? Afterall your time is invaluable but you still set aside hours of your life for them.

money is just the a more practical system than bartering, instead of giving 3 chickens for your pig, ill give you 10 dollars for your pig and you can use that 10 dollars for 3 chickens or any thing else you want or need

 

[Felated Show Pony]

And you have every right to think that.

I would say that society domineers against individuals for the sake of stability, and that there can be no just system without primary and complete freedom for the individual. Aka, an end to coercive government.

we both have the right to our opinions, but like i said, you can't convince people of your ideas by being morally outraged at them.

well i agree we all have the rights to our opinions, but we don't have the rights to steel. your freedom ends were another begins. you cant take some ones tv cause you want it. nore can you take a game some one made with out paying for there labor time and risk in making it. just because some thing is not physically tangenibal doesn't mean it has no value.

I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF PIRACY. I don't believe in the right to steal. the point i was making is people don't often agree with the whole of society, and the "rule of law" is not a compelling argument to anyone other than people walking around on a chokechain.

 

[squid5580]

long time reader first time poster.

this is directed at the op. it seems to me you screwed opinion of what right and wrong is and what work is. it seems from your post your most likely a minor and never had to work for any thing in your life other than maybe doing common house hold choirs. the fact you think you can justify steeling because if you don't steel you have to work for it, i find that disgusting. and the fact its a ez crime to get away with its ok to do.

Thanks for joining on my behalf.

On the topic of your post: yes, I am a minor, and yes, I have had a job - working in the back of a supermarket on a weekend and holiday mornings for two years, still going. Not what you'd call back-breaking labour, but I'm sure you'll agree that were I to go into a real working environment I wouldn't last very long. And I don't think you've understood my point about 'stealing (with an a) because otherwise I'd have to work for it'. As I've said, I do make some (tiny) money, and I pay for my bus to school, part of the weekly shopping, yadda yadda. This leaves me with, say 5 pounds a week left over. This is without paying for a bus into town, food, presents for friends. And that is where my problem starts: I can't bring myself to save up for a month for a game which I know I can get for free. Criticise me all you want, but you have to accept that this is the viewpoint of me and many others.

Note: I have never pirated anything else apart from DS games. I have no torrent software on my computer, (I will allow you to check) and if you read my OP then you will understand my dilemma with DS games.

So let me ask you this. How do you think they pay you for your work every week or 2 weeks? How is your paycheck funded? By the company's money of course. So what would happen if everyone who shops there developed your mentality. I mean it isn't hard to shopift from a store. It is all right there on the shelf all one has to do is pick it up and put it in thier pocket and walk away. Now if this practice persisted what do you think will happen to you as an employee? Either you won't get your paycheck for all of your work (regardless how easy or hard) or you are going to be out of a job. Do you think that is fair or right? Are you going to say its ok I no longer have a job because hey they wanted it and it was there easily accessible for them to take?

Now if you are talking some obscure title that you will never find on a store shelf, is never being made again, and no one will be hurt by you pirating it then that is a different story.

For those who posted condoning this I have to ask. How do you justify pirating as not stealing? That is my question. Is it because you are not taking something physical or tangible? Or is it because the law hasn't caught up to technology that you can claim it isn't stealing?

I have never once justified piracy as not stealing. Never, search through my posts on this thread: never.

And no, the sad fact is that it isn't right. And I wish I could convinve myself that effectively throwing away 25 pounds is worth it (morally, it is, logically, it isn't). And (not to make this seem like an incredibly deep topic, I know it really isn't) the arguement of morality v logic is really something that has controlled history.

Was it right to drop a bomb on Nagasaki? No. Was it logical? At the time, yes.

Where is the logic of exchanging little pieces of paper for happiness in the first place? Or for exchanging them for life sustaining substances? Or the logic of working for them? Afterall your time is invaluable but you still set aside hours of your life for them.

money is just the a more practical system than bartering, instead of giving 3 chickens for your pig, ill give you 10 dollars for your pig and you can use that 10 dollars for 3 chickens or any thing else you want or need

I edited the post but here is the jist. Why is it logical for me to exchange those 3 chickens for a pig when I can just take the pig? Then I have 3 chickens and a pig. It isn't logical for me to give a damn that you got nothing. It also isn't logical to let you live should you resist.

 

[tofulove]

morals are subjective, and based in society.

society is not a perfect system, and you have given no compelling reason for us to follow it, you just assumed that everyone should.

nothing is perfect, but i would much rather live in a society of law and order, than in a land of lawlessness were might makes right and you can do what ever you will, and other can do what they will with no regards to you.

Until Judge Dredd walks the wastes, this land is ours.

a fall out 3 reference very related to the subject at hand. and to go off subject, the world of fall out 3 is make believe, if we were thrown into a world like that, law and order will come to be, by the might of a strong leader and his followers. anarchy can never exist cause of in the state of no law, law will come when one takes control.

 

[tofulove]

But just so you know, I'm not in any way justifying that. I am, after all, only human, who has other needs as well as entertainment.

Okay, I'm not going to try to justify this on costs to society, damage to industry, disrespect of copyright holders, etc, because you've made it quite clear you're not old enough or mature enough to care about that kind of thing just yet, all you care about is you. So moving it to that level:

Your first problem is that you think your entertainment is a *need*. Get that idea out of your head right now, because it will cause you extreme pain later in life when you have actual needs that have to be fulfilled. If you place entertainment up with actual needs you will simply make yourself miserable when you have to choose between it and something else. Remember that it is a desire, great to have fulfilled, but livable without, and you'll actually find life is a happier place.

Second, you're being short-sighted. You are choosing short-term benefit for yourself without fully examining the risks. How hard would it be for a publisher to put out a "pirated" version of the game on the public sites that used the DS's wireless capabilities to essentially "phone-home"? Once they got a certain number of signals from a particular DS unit, it would then be fairly simple to send the cops around and have them confiscate your DS, your games, and apply significant fines to you and your family (and beware, with the DMCA in place, those fines are *nasty*) This means you'd be without your DS, any games, your parents would be loathe to let you near one again, and it would make your home-life very ugly as people around you fought about money issues. Remember, more families and couples fight over money than anything else. Bringing that risk onto yourself and your house for a few hours of entertainment just isn't a good cost-benefit plan.

And of course, as other folks have mentioned, when you pirate the games instead of purchasing, the developers have less reason to bother working extra hard to put out good games. Might as well just put together another bejeweled clone. So unless you really really like bejeweled, it's not a viable strategy if you want to get the most entertainment out of your DS.

One final thing, working for your game is actually good in a number of ways. First, there's the anticipation it builds as you work toward a definite goal and are getting closer. It means the game seems that much cooler when you finally do get it. Second, when your parents see you working toward a specific goal like that, they will be far more impressed and proud than if you just have it. And who knows, if you let them know what you're working toward, you can sometimes luck out and find you get it as a gift

the best post ive seen in this thread yet. gg

 

[Felated Show Pony]

agreed.
human nature will never allow for an end to coercion, or coercive rule. Practical attempts at anarchy always fail because of this, at least within a few generations.

[EDIT] sorry this is supposed to be attached to the Dredd post. crapples.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

But just so you know, I'm not in any way justifying that. I am, after all, only human, who has other needs as well as entertainment.

Okay, I'm not going to try to justify this on costs to society, damage to industry, disrespect of copyright holders, etc, because you've made it quite clear you're not old enough or mature enough to care about that kind of thing just yet, all you care about is you. So moving it to that level:

Your first problem is that you think your entertainment is a *need*. Get that idea out of your head right now, because it will cause you extreme pain later in life when you have actual needs that have to be fulfilled. If you place entertainment up with actual needs you will simply make yourself miserable when you have to choose between it and something else. Remember that it is a desire, great to have fulfilled, but livable without, and you'll actually find life is a happier place.

Second, you're being short-sighted. You are choosing short-term benefit for yourself without fully examining the risks. How hard would it be for a publisher to put out a "pirated" version of the game on the public sites that used the DS's wireless capabilities to essentially "phone-home"? Once they got a certain number of signals from a particular DS unit, it would then be fairly simple to send the cops around and have them confiscate your DS, your games, and apply significant fines to you and your family (and beware, with the DMCA in place, those fines are *nasty*) This means you'd be without your DS, any games, your parents would be loathe to let you near one again, and it would make your home-life very ugly as people around you fought about money issues. Remember, more families and couples fight over money than anything else. Bringing that risk onto yourself and your house for a few hours of entertainment just isn't a good cost-benefit plan.

And of course, as other folks have mentioned, when you pirate the games instead of purchasing, the developers have less reason to bother working extra hard to put out good games. Might as well just put together another bejeweled clone. So unless you really really like bejeweled, it's not a viable strategy if you want to get the most entertainment out of your DS.

One final thing, working for your game is actually good in a number of ways. First, there's the anticipation it builds as you work toward a definite goal and are getting closer. It means the game seems that much cooler when you finally do get it. Second, when your parents see you working toward a specific goal like that, they will be far more impressed and proud than if you just have it. And who knows, if you let them know what you're working toward, you can sometimes luck out and find you get it as a gift

Firstly: I never called entertainment a need. It may have sounded like that, but I never called it a need. 'I have other needs aside from enterainment' may be better. Maybe not, but let me tell you this: I don't believe entertainment to be a need.

Secondly: Since when were morals on piracy related to age and maturity? I'd say that I was more mature than most my age, (sorry if that sounds egotistical, and basically twattish, but I think it's true) many of who pirate things. Also, adults I know have downloaded music. Does that make them immature?

Thirdly: Since the R4 is one of the most widely available pirating units around, there would be a lot of wireless signals coming from the DS. Considering hundreds of thousands have been sold, I don't think they'd bother taking every single R4. They'd cut it at the source and cut their losses. And my parents would be loathe to let me near it? Considering they bought it for me, I think not.

It seems to me as though you're on a form of moral high horse. And that is fine, and in the long run you'll probably grow to be a better person than me.

 

[tofulove]

agreed.
human nature will never allow for an end to coercion, or coercive rule. Practical attempts at anarchy always fail because of this, at least within a few generations.

faster than that even. slightly off subject, batman the city of gothem was never in a state of anarchy it was simply ruled by criminals who rule hurted the week and poor, so batman step in to help those suffering under there rule. and if batman wins there still no anarchy the power just another form of government, which hopeful will serve the people better.