The 'Provocative Clothing' Rape Defense

[Nieroshai]

Sigh, it's not a defence. You've misread what they've said and just completely corrupted their words. And... egh... just... let's just say that a rape is going to happen one night. There is a man out with the intention of raping a girl. Wearing provocative clothes is just bringing attention to you, wearing unprovocative clothes isn't going to make you invisible, but you may put yourself higher on the list of potential targets if you wear clothes that provoke.

And then there's the hoo-haa about slut walks, yeah, ladies should be able to wear whatever they want. I agree. Let's tell young men not to rape. I also agree. But don't act like you can't understand that Canadian police officer who suggested to make yourself less of a target.

... huh. I didn't notice it was unpopular opinion time already.

I agree with this.

It would be great if women could wear whatever they want to whenever they want to and it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.
Fact of the matter is though, that everyone already knows rape is wrong, it's just that rapists don't care about it being wrong, nor do they care about the law or the victims for that matter, which is a big fucking problem.
This means that there are a few things that need be done:

1. Rapists need to be taught that rape is FUCKING WRONG.

2. Society needs to learn that rape can NEVER be the victims fault. There is no "he/she wanted to get raped"

3-9. See above



10. Maybe, just maybe, women should consider not to dress provocatively when they are going somewhere they know might be dangerous. As written by the gentleman I quoted, revealing clothes do make a woman more of a target, since they do increase her visibility.
This is not to say that they are to blame in any way or at fault or anything even remotely close to that if they get raped, but wearing provocative clothing in a potentially dangerous environment might not be a sensible thing to do at times.

There's an inherent problem with point #1. They DO know rape is wrong. Burglars know theft is wrong. Vandals know vandalism is wrong. Gang thugs know murder is wrong. From childhood, most if not all of us are given a picture of right and wrong. Crime and injustice happen when we do those things anyway. We do those things despite their wrongness, because we want the benefit from the action more than we want to do the right thing. Say I want money the easy way, or I think I deserve to mark my own territory, or defend said territory from other assholes by busting a cap. Hell, say I want an orgasm and I've got no self-control and no charisma with which to get tail the normal way. And before the argument cracks out, masturbation does not suffice as a counter-argument. Imagine your friend orders a pizza, and you really want it. Say you have an overwhelming desire for it, the smell's driving you nuts, and you have no money to get your own. A good, normal person would just go away or deal with it, or even be adventurous enough to go up and ask for a slice, but there will always be the one who decides "fuck him, fuck the rules, I'm gonna go over there and take that pizza." Smelling the pizza doesn't satisfy the craving, it only makes you think about it more. The whole point of restraint is that it is a struggle against our own nature in an attempt to be civil, courteous, and a productive member of society. Somebody is always going to want some tail so bad they're willing to risk the law and physical harm to get it.

 

[Screamarie]

Well I've actually heard it's the exact opposite which can mean your more likely to get raped, IF were talking about just walking down a dark alley and getting jumped kind of stuff. If your shy and meek, which probably means your not wearing very provocative clothing, you are more like to get raped because you are less likely to fight back and more likely to fulfill the desire for power that your attacker has.

In fact, I've heard of studies that say that women who have been raped and traumatized by them and therefore become more afraid and less confident are likely to be raped again because they're shining beacons of a target.

So...I guess every woman should be wearing mini skirts if they don't want to be raped.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Yeah, I don't get that either. That one of the biggest loads of bullshit I have ever heard. This "defence" is still a blatant admission of guilt, but tries to imply that the person in question shouldn't be punished because the victim was apparently "asking for it." Fuck that! If he did it he should still face prosecution to the fullest extent of the law regardless of whether or not she was "asking for it." *sarcastic air quotes*

 

[runic knight]

There's an inherent problem with point #1. They DO know rape is wrong. Burglars know theft is wrong. Vandals know vandalism is wrong. Gang thugs know murder is wrong. From childhood, most if not all of us are given a picture of right and wrong. Crime and injustice happen when we do those things anyway. We do those things despite their wrongness, because we want the benefit from the action more than we want to do the right thing. Say I want money the easy way, or I think I deserve to mark my own territory, or defend said territory from other assholes by busting a cap. Hell, say I want an orgasm and I've got no self-control and no charisma with which to get tail the normal way. And before the argument cracks out, masturbation does not suffice as a counter-argument. Imagine your friend orders a pizza, and you really want it. Say you have an overwhelming desire for it, the smell's driving you nuts, and you have no money to get your own. A good, normal person would just go away or deal with it, or even be adventurous enough to go up and ask for a slice, but there will always be the one who decides "fuck him, fuck the rules, I'm gonna go over there and take that pizza." Smelling the pizza doesn't satisfy the craving, it only makes you think about it more. The whole point of restraint is that it is a struggle against our own nature in an attempt to be civil, courteous, and a productive member of society. Somebody is always going to want some tail so bad they're willing to risk the law and physical harm to get it.

problem, most cases of violent rape are not about sex. Sounds dumb I know, but it is something with power or control or whatever and has even been done in cases where the attack has no sexual attraction to the victim and just does it to meet the other requirements. Hell, there is weird psychological aspects involved with how the attacker views and justifies what they have done, such as cases where homophobes who rapes other men justified it as not gay because it wasn't about sex or because they were not being penetrated or whatever other mental acrobatics.

It isn't that people see a skimpy outfit and act on impulse like a hungry man attacking a pie. Bit more complicated then that. Oh! and then there is the counter-argument that if they lacked such self control, why do they not all murder their bosses as well instead of, say, being religious figureheads of community for decades as they fiddle kids or whatever else?
Just not as simple as you describe I am afraid.

 

[freaper]

Sigh, it's not a defence. You've misread what they've said and just completely corrupted their words. And... egh... just... let's just say that a rape is going to happen one night. There is a man out with the intention of raping a girl. Wearing provocative clothes is just bringing attention to you, wearing unprovocative clothes isn't going to make you invisible, but you may put yourself higher on the list of potential targets if you wear clothes that provoke.

And then there's the hoo-haa about slut walks, yeah, ladies should be able to wear whatever they want. I agree. Let's tell young men not to rape. I also agree. But don't act like you can't understand that Canadian police officer who suggested to make yourself less of a target.

... huh. I didn't notice it was unpopular opinion time already.

I agree with this.

It would be great if women could wear whatever they want to whenever they want to and it would be great if all men would learn that rape is fucking wrong.
Fact of the matter is though, that everyone already knows rape is wrong, it's just that rapists don't care about it being wrong, nor do they care about the law or the victims for that matter, which is a big fucking problem.
This means that there are a few things that need be done:

1. Rapists need to be taught that rape is FUCKING WRONG.

2. Society needs to learn that rape can NEVER be the victims fault. There is no "he/she wanted to get raped"

3-9. See above



10. Maybe, just maybe, women should consider not to dress provocatively when they are going somewhere they know might be dangerous. As written by the gentleman I quoted, revealing clothes do make a woman more of a target, since they do increase her visibility.
This is not to say that they are to blame in any way or at fault or anything even remotely close to that if they get raped, but wearing provocative clothing in a potentially dangerous environment might not be a sensible thing to do at times.

Pretty much this.

If you'll allow me to use theft as a metaphor; as much as I'd like to leave my door unlocked when I'm out of the house, it's just not sensible. Yes, the robber that strolls through my apartment is at fault for stealing my stuff, but if I had taken more precautions I would not have gotten robbed in the first place, unless, of course, that thief was planning to rob me anyhow.

If a lady's walking out at night, by herself, in provocative clothing, it makes it so much easier for any Tom, Dick and Harry to jump her, given that he's a rapist, of course. As much as any sensible person would love to see women walk around at night, by themselves, in the clothes they wish to wear, it is simply not possible to do so anywhere they please. I'm afraid to say this might, in fact, never be the case.

 

[runic knight]

Had a thought. How much of this argument stems on the very notion of sexual repression in the first place about what is or is not provocative in society today?

to put it another way, lets take topless beaches and stuff in europe or something, where nudity is far less forbidden and therefore far less taboo. Would they be more likely to be raped by the logic of less dressed being first target? Would their lack of clothing be taken into consideration at being attacked? So much of this stinks of culture's repressed sexual desires and enforced morality about sex...

 

[Thaluikhain]

There's an inherent problem with point #1. They DO know rape is wrong. Burglars know theft is wrong. Vandals know vandalism is wrong. Gang thugs know murder is wrong. From childhood, most if not all of us are given a picture of right and wrong. Crime and injustice happen when we do those things anyway. We do those things despite their wrongness, because we want the benefit from the action more than we want to do the right thing. Say I want money the easy way, or I think I deserve to mark my own territory, or defend said territory from other assholes by busting a cap. Hell, say I want an orgasm and I've got no self-control and no charisma with which to get tail the normal way. And before the argument cracks out, masturbation does not suffice as a counter-argument. Imagine your friend orders a pizza, and you really want it. Say you have an overwhelming desire for it, the smell's driving you nuts, and you have no money to get your own. A good, normal person would just go away or deal with it, or even be adventurous enough to go up and ask for a slice, but there will always be the one who decides "fuck him, fuck the rules, I'm gonna go over there and take that pizza." Smelling the pizza doesn't satisfy the craving, it only makes you think about it more. The whole point of restraint is that it is a struggle against our own nature in an attempt to be civil, courteous, and a productive member of society. Somebody is always going to want some tail so bad they're willing to risk the law and physical harm to get it.

Doesn't hold true. Many people are against rape in the abstract, but don't consider what they do to be rape. A lot of people just assume that a woman automatically will or should consent to sex under certain circumstances. It was only very recently (1992 in the US) that men could be charged with raping their wives, until then consent was assumed, and a lot of people still lean towards that view. A large amount of rapes are committed by previous sexual partners, for example.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

EDIT 2: And no, if the girl is drunk and has consentual sex, accusing someone of rape afterwards is not an excuse either. You have to be averse to having sex for it to be rape, not just suffering a bout of poor decision making.

Lack of indicating they do not want to have sex =/= consent.

If someone has sex with an unconscious person, the person isn't saying 'no', but it's still rape.

Alcohol makes these kinds of things difficult, especially if the people were so drunk they don't remember, but if the other partner is not drunk, having sex with someone who is not thinking clearly is a bit iffy, and even rape, depending on if they pass out or something.

Although I didn't say so, I was not referring to being unconscious or so drunk they don't know what's going on. Sorry 'bout that. As far as I'm concerned you shouldn't have to accomodate other people being drunk, because a lot of the time people get drunk specifically so they're uninhibited.

 

[Saika Renegade]

The basis of the supposed defense mentioned by the OP feels something along the lines of a person justifying an attempt to shoot IndyCar champ Scott Dixon on the basis of seeing him in his racing uniform (as he is sponsored by Target, he sports a literal bullseye on his chest) and saying he was just asking to be shot.

Brought into a new yet still criminal context, it sounds all the more ludicrous, and as a defense would be a subject of media mockery in no time.

 

[mooncalf]

Which came first, the creep or the miniskirt?

 

[loa]

That is not a "rape defense", it is putting blame on the victim which is arguably a worse thing.

 

[Gamer_152]

The fact that as many people still use this excuse as do is very worrying. Not only are they trying to excuse an utterly inexcusable act that needs to be dealt with extremely seriously, but victim blaming is very destructive behaviour. People are often reluctant to report their rape to begin with, but stuff like this only makes them more unlikely to and can cause them to blame themselves for horrific events that were not their fault. It's also the kind of statement that tries to unreasonably dictate to women what they can and cannot wear. It's all-round disgusting.

 

[Lieju]

EDIT 2: And no, if the girl is drunk and has consentual sex, accusing someone of rape afterwards is not an excuse either. You have to be averse to having sex for it to be rape, not just suffering a bout of poor decision making.

Lack of indicating they do not want to have sex =/= consent.

If someone has sex with an unconscious person, the person isn't saying 'no', but it's still rape.

Alcohol makes these kinds of things difficult, especially if the people were so drunk they don't remember, but if the other partner is not drunk, having sex with someone who is not thinking clearly is a bit iffy, and even rape, depending on if they pass out or something.

Although I didn't say so, I was not referring to being unconscious or so drunk they don't know what's going on. Sorry 'bout that. As far as I'm concerned you shouldn't have to accomodate other people being drunk, because a lot of the time people get drunk specifically so they're uninhibited.

It depends on how drunk they are. If both partners are drunk, there can be poor decision-making on both sides, but if you're not drunk, you have more responsibility in a situation like that.
You don't necessarily know why the person has gotten drunk. They might be unused to alcohol, or drinking something they don't think has all that much alcohol. Or their drinks might even have been spiked.

But if someone gets so drunk they can't remember what happened, and can't remember giving consent, it's understandable why they might feel taken advantage of.
It doesn't necessarily mean the other person did something wrong, but these kinds of cases aren't always 'girl gives consent, regrets giving consent later and cries rape'.

 

[CaptainKarma]

People say that there's no evidence and that it is completely unrelated to rape. I disagree because that sort of clothing may set off something in men who have little self control. I'll admit it when I see a hot scantily clad girl in the street I think "ohh yeahssss" to my self and then my mind tends to elaborate, but I would never make a grotty comment or try to go over and grab her.

Take someone who is a bit mentally unstable and also very drunk. They may see the same girl I did, seeing her skimpy outfit they will think of the same things I did (her clothes would make the mind recall the things associated with the clothing, namely things of a sexual nature). Having little self control in the first place and being intoxicated, it is not surprising that they may make a remark to try and appear big in front of their friends (seen that happen a lot), or in more extreme ceases actually attempt sexual harrasment or rape.

You cant claim there is no evidence and then MAKE UP your own little fictional circumstance to use as evidence. Do you want me to find the state that show dress has no effect on the likelihood of rape? How about the interviews with actual rapists who aren't even aware of clothing and choose victims just out of opportunity?

What's worrying to me is that this whole conversation focusses only on "stranger inthe bushes" rape, and ignores the vastly higher acquaintance rape or date rape.

I like how the subject of the woman being flirtatous and leading the man on is not included. You think women only DRESS a certain way or do you think it follows that they also act a certain way when dressed (lets not pull any punches here) like a slut. Try to act like booty shorts at the club instead of the gym is somehow not slutty if you want to but then youre just being dishonest.

Before you say (like a retard) that Im actually defending the rapist: False. I am not defending the rapist. Rape is so obviously wrong it is insulting you accuse me of thinking otherwise.

Where I am going with this is that the victim is often the "victim" with a case of buyers remorse. That means that if you dress like a slut you deserve to hear for the millionth time "maybe you shouldnt dress like a slut" and that is all you deserve, not to be raped. I hope it is clear the difference betweeen those 2 things because you are likely thinking with your emotions right now instead of actual thinking.

Perhaps women do have some actual amount of fault in dressing a certain way the same as I would have some actual amount of fault if I went to a gay bar dressed like the male version of a slut. Nevermind that I dont, nevermind that Im straight, it would be flat out dumb to do such a thing and then say "I can dress however I want".

Again not defending the rapist and its sad I have to repeat this for you to remember this far down the post that I already told you that. Posters are on what is so obviously a witch hunt here that unlikely would be a kind outlook on this group having actually thought about the post instead of just flaming like you're about to.

Take attitudes like this. This post is fucking disgusting. Why do you segue so smoothly from provocative dress to false accusations? How the is it relevant? Yes, false accusations are very very bad. But they yacht nothing to do with clothing.

 

[Burnswell]

This is great, lets argue about whether the stupidest position on something has any merit.
There are people who think the sun is a tiny ball that moves around a flat earth. There are people who think a 2000 year old cult leader is going to come back and fuck the planet up any day now. There are people who think the Sandy Hill shooting was a staged deception using actors because middle income moms don't wear makeup, they must have been actors. If you look hard enough its pretty much possible to find someone who believes the most ridiculous shite you could imagine. Ridiculously stupid things are said every day.
The most I'd buy is that some backwater churches or minor theocratic hivetown thinks this brainfart sounds logical, but it would not only get laughed out of any modern court but the defendant would be admitting his own guilt and getting his ass thrown in prison instantly from using this as a defense.
This is the furthest thing from anything resembling a mainstream opinion, so if you really think this is something that "needs to be fought" you're almost as much of an idiot as the peanuts who think that's a legitimate argument.
Next we'll be debating the "I stoled fud cos it looked yummy" defense. Fml.

 

[CrystalShadow]

When the issue of rape comes up people usually have straightforward images in their mind, reality is rarely that cut and dry, and honestly I think the system as it is now tends to favor women and sympathy towards them a little too much. It's far too easy for a woman who does something willingly to claim rape after the fact, and there are tons of reasons why you see that kind of thing happen.

A lot of people hate me for it, but I'm pretty much of the opinion that unless there are signs of actual forced sexual contact (ie holding someone down and forcing yourself on them) such cases should hold little legal validity, and should rarely go to court. Contreversial, but in a system where innocence is presumed, it's a subject where emotions get too easily involved, and I have problems with any kind of case where someone can be potentially convicted with little or no physical evidence of a crime, especially by a jury for emotional reasons. I've felt that we need standards for physical trauma, and things like the so called "closed door doctrine" to be put into law, with such trials being encouraged to be heard before a Judge instead of a Jury (even if it should remain the defendants perrogative) since a Judge is more likely to make a more professional judgement and be under closer review after the fact.

Your argument here is a little flawed. Yes, what you're claiming is possible, but the entire point becomes a little questionable when you consider that Rape cases have notoriously low conviction rates. (roundabout 5% or less in most countries).

This kind of undermines the assertion that it's easy to claim you've been raped. It isn't, and compared to other crimes it's actually easy to get out of it if it even goes to trial in the first place. (which isn't necessarily that likely, because a lot of actual rape victims feel ashamed, or find the thought of the legal process too traumatic.)

It's an interesting idea, but reality shows otherwise.

 

[Johkmil]

What disgusts me in this thread is how many who are continuing to front the rapists' cause while taking care to notify everyone that they do not support rape.
First point: the skimpy (or "slutty") clothing argument. There's no proof that skimpy clothing increases the risk of sexual assault. Absolutely none. So stop making theoretical situations where the rapist chooses based on your (somewhat disturbing) understanding of the mind of a rapist.
Second, even worse argument: rape allegations are usually women having second thoughts. Closely related to "it's not rape if you didn't struggle." Less than four per cent of all rape cases reported to the police end in a conviction. Does this mean that most accusations are false? No, it means that we are so focused on the rare case of assault rapes that we do not consider the much more common date/party rape as "real" rape. I do not have the US numbers, but in Norway 95% of the victims are female, most of the rapes happen while intoxicated on parties, 50% use more than a week to press charges, and perhaps most importantly: in most of the cases the victims knew the rapist, an in those cases an astounding 75% are previously registered felons, usually theft and narcotics; a statistic that proves bad boys are not only douches, but also dangerous. They see what they want, and take it. In these cases one could argue that not wearing revealing clothes, not drinking alcohol and staying at home could prevent rapes, but then we could as well make the women wear burquas.

In short: assaults are opportunistic, most rapes are committed by eastwards with an perverted view on sexuality. "It is always consensual if it's with me, baby! If she flirts, she puts out. "
The best way to prevent rape is to stomp down hard on your mates, or anyone else (such as internet forumgoers) showing signs of misogynistic ideas.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Wow, many of the responses in this thread are completely disgusting. Incidentally Escapist, how the fuck is "slut" not considered a sexist slur? Remember that clause in the Code of Conduct, eh? The bit about sexism not being tolerated? Please tell me what 50% of thread consists of.

What the fuck is dressing or behaving "like a slut" anyway? Showing ankles, wrists and hair? Having bare knees and arms? Showing thighs and cleavage? What is "acting slutty"? Smiling at a man? Being friendly, also known as "flirting"? Having had sex in the past?

I've been moderated for this before but I'll be damned if I'm not saying it again- This community has some serious fucking issues with women.

 

[Giftfromme]

Wow, many of the responses in this thread are completely disgusting. Incidentally Escapist, how the fuck is "slut" not considered a sexist slur? Remember that clause in the Code of Conduct, eh? The bit about sexism not being tolerated? Please tell me what 50% of thread consists of.

What the fuck is dressing or behaving "like a slut" anyway? Showing ankles, wrists and hair? Having bare knees and arms? Showing thighs and cleavage? What is "acting slutty"? Smiling at a man? Being friendly, also known as "flirting"? Having had sex in the past?

I've been moderated for this before but I'll be damned if I'm not saying it again- This community has some serious fucking issues with women.

Nothing is black and white bro. That's what the responses show. It's a whole spectrum of viewing the world, based on experience, reading and social surrounds. Yours is one view of the issue, but not necessarily the correct one, whatever "correct" means in this instance. These are many viewpoints fighting for dominance