The Rise of the "Man-*****"

[Hagi]

He apologised for something he shouldn't have to apologise for because you made a massive deal out of it.

If you dress like a tool expect to get treated like a tool.

Back under your bridge.

There's a difference between expecting to be treated like a tool and promoting someone else being treated like a tool.

Yeah, if you dress like that you'll likely get treated like a tool. But how does that make treating someone else like a tool a good thing? Or even worse, how does that make promoting treating someone else as a tool a good thing?

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's good. And it certainly doesn't mean it should be promoted.

He should have apologized, which he ambiguously did. And promoting the verbal abuse of someone else is a big deal, even if Mythrignoc is overreacting a bit, likely due to personal experience.

 

[Mythrignoc]

It can't be that bad. *Looks at image*. Wow. Ok everyone around him now has license to make fun of this man for the way he dresses. I think this is worse than just straight up drag.

Go fuck yourself.

The hell is wrong with a man getting in touch with his feminine side?

Nothing, but that outfit is just so damn bad. It's basically saying "I'm feminine but I want to express that without everyone knowing" but it's so fucking obvious you can see it from space. It's a joke.

There's something deliciously ironic about you making a statement about an object of fashion on a topic you're ostensibly on the 'opposing side' of. x)

What side do you think I'm on?

I got an enormous rant from a guy who didn't bother to read my entire post to find out that I don't mind if men act feminine.

I think it's ironic though because personally I find people who do nothing but judge celebrities or random people due to their outfits to be lowlife scum.

Although since he is a model I can't really judge him for what he's wearing.

No I read your whole post.

Your second paragraph of tolerance, understanding and compassion just didn't make up for your first, extremely insulting paragraph that was in no way indicative of being a joke.

It wasn't a joke but what the hell's wrong with hating on an outfit. I wouldn't call him a man-***** though.

Example-
"Man, fuck that tranny *****. I may be okay with guys wearing womens clothing but that fag is just ugly as hell, I hope people harass him and make fun of him, so fuck him."


Do you see how insincere it is to pretend to be open minded by throwing in an insult directly contradicting what you say?

I thought that outfit looked incredibly stupid so therefore I think men shouldn't be allowed to be feminine. Whatever you say.

This is what you did. Your first paragraph was a slam against this guy and the idea of being effeminate

As I explained later the outfit looks like someone trying to hide their femininity and doing a tremendously bad job at it. That's why it's funny. That's why I think it looks worse than straight up drag.

Yes, you explained it later, but it's not what you said in the beginning.

Calling someone ugly and berating them for being effeminate, and when you get called out on it, covering your ass by trying to make it seem like you really are open minded, again, does NOT absolve you of what you originally said.


If I called a woman a *****, and someone told me that's an awful thing to say, and then I respond with "Well she was being mean to me boohoo," not only is my reasoning just an excuse to feel good about calling her a *****, but I'm STILL calling her that and insulting her.

So yeah, you explained "what you meant" quite clearly, and I read it all. Doesn't mean I'm okay with your earlier statements now, all it says to me is that you're trying to backtrack and cover your ass to justify that you were totally in the right for saying that in the first place, and you weren't.

What I originally said was that the guy's outfit sucks, I guess it could be misconstrued for ragging on him for being feminine.

No, what you originally said was, and I quote YOUR words-

"Ok everyone around him now has license to make fun of this man for the way he dresses."

You promoted abuse to a man for the way he dresses. There's no getting around what you said, you directly stated he should be harassed for the way he dresses.

It doesn't matter if the outfit was ugly or it was the most horrendous thing you've ever seen in your life, it's not YOUR life, it's his.

If that were some guy really dressing like that in every day life, as opposed to just a model, you would be promoting verbal and potentially even physical violence against the effeminate man.

Oh shut the fuck up. I said people should make fun of him for it, that's it. I didn't say he should be hurt because of it so stop lying about what I said. And there's no such thing as verbal violence, it's an oxymoron.

As a transgender myself, I was pissed, and I still am that you're trying to justify it.

You'd be a lot less pissed if you actually listened to what I said and didn't make shit up.

And I don't consider people making wisecracks harassment, not unless they follow around or don't stop (which is not what I was advocating).

Verbal Violence is an oxymoron? It's impossible to hurt someone purely verbally?


Dude, do you have any idea what a politician is? That's there JOB.

 

[Colour Scientist]

i am, personally, slightly offended that women seem to wish to claim all positive emotions as "feminine" whilst relagting most negative emotions as "masculine"

Where did you get the idea that women created the gender roles that exist in society? In many traditions:

Feminine = Emotional, nurturing, caring, etc... = weak
Masculine = Tough, stoic, etc... = strong


These stereotypes prompted the terms "pussy" for feminine men (implying they're weak) while masculine women have been called "butch" which doesn't have the same negative connotations. That was a pretty lame attempt to turn a thread about feminine men into one about the evil double-standards women put in place to keep men down.

 

[peruvianskys]

Oh shut the fuck up. I said people should make fun of him for it, that's it. I didn't say he should be hurt because of it

It's really hard for LGBT people to feel comfortable or accepted when they wear the clothing they want to wear, and the idea that "it's just making fun of them" doesn't really work out that way. A lot of people are harassed for their choice of dress and I'm sure plenty of people, young kids especially, have done terrible things because of nothing but "non-verbal violence" (which is totally a thing, it's even legally defined). I'm not saying it's your fault if a gay kid kills himself because you said his sweater looked faggy, but there's something to be said for realizing how hard "feminine" men who are open about their desires have it and not wanting to add to that problem.

As someone who doesn't appear to be gay, you probably don't know quite how tough being a member of the LGBT community is, especially for socially active men. Mocking someone for how they dress is never okay, but especially when the reason for the mockery is because they aren't "masculine enough" for you. The feeling of not fitting in, not being manly enough, is a really hard thing for a lot of men to deal with and it's really tough for a lot of LGBT men especially. I don't have to deal with it because I'm a very "manly" person most of the time, but I know a lot of my friends suffer harassment because of it and even "just making fun of them" is enough to really upset someone who's life is hard enough as it is because of the immaturity and bigotry they have to endure for being who they are.

Just side on the side of too respectful, okay? It's not the end of the world if you make fun of someone for a silly scarf, but you should understand that remarks like that really do hurt people and the ones who get it most are the ones who struggle with those issues anyway without any help from outsiders who deem it their job to enforce rigid male/female gender roles at the expense of a person's happiness.

Edit: Also, does anyone else think "Rise of the Man-*****" sounds like the sequel to some kind of 80's action film? I'd pay to see Terminator 5: Rise of the Man-*****.

 

[Hagi]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence

by your link:

rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment:

You really are going for that 100% aren't you?

 

[The_Graff]

i am, personally, slightly offended that women seem to wish to claim all positive emotions as "feminine" whilst relagting most negative emotions as "masculine"

Where did you get the idea that women created the gender roles that exist in society? In many traditions:

Feminine = Emotional, nurturing, caring, etc... = weak
Masculine = Tough, stoic, etc... = strong


These stereotypes prompted the terms "pussy" for feminine men (implying they're weak) while masculine women have been called "butch" which doesn't have the same negative connotations. That was a pretty lame attempt to turn a thread about feminine men into one about the evil double-standards women put in place to keep men down.

by george! A woman (or would you prefer 'womun'?) disagrees with my less than complementary opinion of women. someone inform the press!!

 

[Mythrignoc]

@Father-Time,

If you HONESTLY and TRULY believe that words cannot do any harm, least of all to the LGBT community, I invite you to google the name's "Maggie Gallagher," "Shirley Phelps," "Pat Robertson," "Michelle Bachman," or any other politician name associated with either abhorring the gay community or trying to "Fix" them.

 

[51gunner]

Generally anyone dressed like that embodies two personality traits that I don't get along with

1) Vanity
2) Hipster-ism (seemingly pointless rejection of what 'most' people wear).

This sets off my warning bells, therefore I'm probably passing judgement on that person straight off before I even speak to them.

 

[Colour Scientist]

by george! A woman (or would you prefer 'womun'?) disagrees with my less than complementary opinion of women. someone inform the press!!

You can have a negative opinion of women, by all means. If you have genuine reasons to hate women then that's your problem. Just don't go spouting madey-uppey bullshit, of course I'm going to call you out on that.

If I said all men are dicks on this site and left it at that I'd be lynched. It's silly to act as though me calling you out on something that isn't true proves some bizarre point that all women are out to get you.

 

[The_Graff]

by george! A woman (or would you prefer 'womun'?) disagrees with my less than complementary opinion of women. someone inform the press!!

You can have a negative opinion of women, by all means. If you have genuine reasons to hate women then that's your problem. Just don't go spouting madey-uppey bullshit, of course I'm going to call you out on that.

If I said all men are dicks on this site and left it at that I'd be lynched. It's silly to act as though me calling you out on something that isn't true proves some bizarre point that all women are out to get you.

i do not believe that all women are 'evil' or 'out to get me' most of the women i know are actually very pleasant company i simply have a problem with the logical fallacies inerent in feminism and how they are swallowed, blindly, by people like yourself. i suggest you do some reading on the subject.

 

[Mythrignoc]

@Father-Time,

If you HONESTLY and TRULY believe that words cannot do any harm, least of all to the LGBT community,

It's hilarious that you say that because it relies on the incorrect stereotype that transvestites aren't heterosexual (or not transgendered).

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Wow.


LGBT stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender.

Transvestites, AKA crossdressers, are NOT included in that acronym. Please look things up before you tout nonsense

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

I think this is the third time this same issue has been brought up. So if you're one of those people who've seen my answer before...READ IT AGAIN~! xD Or don't. That's alright too, but for those that haven't seen my answer please take a look. I think it actually still fits in this case without changing anything.

I really don't like this implication being made. I feel that giving a direct response to it inherently limits what men are and aren't allowed to do.

I myself have long since thrown the whole idea of masculinity out the window when it comes to the so called societal norm of the definition. If you really want to be man, it means to do anything and everything you want to/love to do (with the exception of things against the law obviously, I'm not encouraging mass murdering people ^^').

In my own personal opinion: To truly be a man is to stop thinking about what you 'need' to do in order to be a man.

I think a better thing to spend time thinking about is:
As a man what are the things I feel I can't do because it isn't 'masculine' enough?
After thinking about that go ahead and do those things. Get the most out of life. Don't let a ridiculous idea like "What it means to be a man" stop you.

An example of this is the growing trend of older gentlemen finding enjoyment in My Little Pony. I wonder if any of them are ashamed of liking it simply because it doesn't seem 'masculine' enough. It would be sad if they hid it and missed out on potential friends they could make a connection with through the show.

So long story short. I think that the definition is irrelevant if a person wants to live a truly whole and complete life.

Here's a fact I'd like to share with the world despite it probably not being considered 'masculine'. I bought the DS game Style Boutique and absolutely loved every minute I played it. It was by far one of the best and most addicting games I had ever bought for my DS and I still play it today.

 

[Hagi]

Yes I'm so evil for using the definition everyone uses rather than twisting the dictionary definition ignoring the obvious intent.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/violence?region=us

There's this thing called context. It changes the meaning of words.

Again by your own link: the violence of her own feelings.

Now obviously, her feelings aren't going around physically harming people. That's not what violence means in that context. It means she has feelings that make her want to cause harm, or cause emotional harm to herself depending on interpretation.

Just like that you have verbal violence. It doesn't mean that your words are going around physically harming people, which would indeed be impossible. It means that your words cause harm.

Your words, in your initial post, caused harm.

 

[Colour Scientist]

i do not believe that all women are 'evil' or 'out to get me' most of the women i know are actually very pleasant company i simply have a problem with the logical fallacies inerent in feminism and how they are swallowed, blindly, by people like yourself. i suggest you do some reading on the subject.

I have, I really, really have. If you think that feminism is one solid block of ideas then you clearly know nothing about it. The topic had nothing to do with feminism, it's sad that you think just because I pointed out that what you said was bullshit you think you know exactly what my beliefs are.

If you think that feminism is comprised of sitting in a room, talking about how shit men are or yelling at men for holding open doors then I think you're the one who needs to start doing some serious research before you go spouting uninformed statements like that.