The short-lived DC Cinematic Universe may be done

[Hawki]

Your argument is that you don't need a lead in film to introduce the characters of an ensemble. By their very nature, sequels are going to have had a lead in film; the one they're a sequel to. You can't really use them to prove your point

There's a world of difference between the likes of Star Wars and the Matrix when compared to the cinematic universe format. Even if the likes of Neo and Luke get top billing, the films still introduced their casts all in one go, whereas the MCU format devotes entire films to single characters before getting to ensemble films.

 

[Natemans]

=

Good. Cast someone better as superman and write him right this time.

I don't need superman debating on whether he should actually help people. He's a boy scout, his moral dilemma should be whether or not he's helping ENOUGH

No one can match Henry Cavill's looks. No one.

Give me a buff, black haired, white dude with chest hair and a cleft chin that can ACT.

Henry Cavill was a great choice for Superman. I was still waiting for them to give him good material to work with. Hearing this news is all the more disappointing.

 

[Natemans]

=

Good. Cast someone better as superman and write him right this time.

I don't need superman debating on whether he should actually help people. He's a boy scout, his moral dilemma should be whether or not he's helping ENOUGH

No one can match Henry Cavill's looks. No one.

Give me a buff, black haired, white dude with chest hair and a cleft chin that can ACT.

If I haven't said this before

Supergirl had the best Superman

The suit is a mixed bag, but writing and acting is pretty solid. Christopher Reeve is still my fav though I still like Tyler Hoechlin a lot.

 

[Elijin]

I have no understanding of how you can say Justice League is the final entry in the current DC Film Universe, only to immediately acknowledge that 2 more films are scheduled for release, and 1 for production.

 

[Kyrian007]

The thing they have to do to make this work, is the one thing they will never be willing to do. They need to pull the plug on everything and just stop. Let it die, sit on the license and produce nothing. For years. Maybe even as long as a decade. Marvel can't keep up the pace they have set forever, even though they have people who can see the bigger picture and actually have some decent long term planning. At some point they will be out of ideas, maybe even try and fail to reboot the whole thing. Marvel has pretty effectively blocked out the whole market for comic book movies. There really isn't any room for competitors. The only shot DC has isn't chasing after leftovers... they have to knock Marvel off the top of the ladder. And the only way to do that is to strike when Marvel is faltering... and that isn't now. That won't be until after Avengers 4... and probably not anytime soon after that either... not even probably years after. To win, DC has to have patience and wait until the market wants their product. Something that corporations just can't accept "we can't have ALL THE MONEY RIGHT NOW."

 

[Hawki]

The thing they have to do to make this work, is the one thing they will never be willing to do. They need to pull the plug on everything and just stop. Let it die, sit on the license and produce nothing. For years. Maybe even as long as a decade. Marvel can't keep up the pace they have set forever, even though they have people who can see the bigger picture and actually have some decent long term planning. At some point they will be out of ideas, maybe even try and fail to reboot the whole thing. Marvel has pretty effectively blocked out the whole market for comic book movies. There really isn't any room for competitors. The only shot DC has isn't chasing after leftovers... they have to knock Marvel off the top of the ladder. And the only way to do that is to strike when Marvel is faltering... and that isn't now. That won't be until after Avengers 4... and probably not anytime soon after that either... not even probably years after. To win, DC has to have patience and wait until the market wants their product. Something that corporations just can't accept "we can't have ALL THE MONEY RIGHT NOW."

So, on one hand, you criticize corporations for wanting "all the money," yet also claim that DC shouldn't try to compete Marvel because they...can't have all the money (or at least not enough of it).

I can kind of appreciate the idea of DC not being able to compete with Marvel, but the whole "wait until Marvel is faltering" idea isn't going to work. As in, suppose Marvel releases a film that bombs, WB goes "great, now we can strike," but by the time they start producing their movie, Marvel could regain dominance. Or, they produce movies, wait for Marvel to falter, then release them? Yeah...that isn't going to happen.

One idea I really dislike is that of the DCEU rebooting, because everyone and their mother knows the origins of Batman and Superman at this point, we don't need to see them again. While each DCEU movie has had its flaws, the worldbuilding in of itself is fine, so there's that foundation to work from.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I have no understanding of how you can say Justice League is the final entry in the current DC Film Universe, only to immediately acknowledge that 2 more films are scheduled for release, and 1 for production.

Essentially the current "continuity" from MoS, BvS and JL will come to an end. Wonder Woman 2 will follow the first, but won't be in continuity with the DCCU as it has been established to date. As a rough analogy, it can be thought of as Solo vs SW Episodes VII-IX.

Recasting is a legit option, but the article argues that with both flagship characters potentially being out and the general state of the DCCU to date (in short, it's in a sorry state), the current continuity should end and something new and better (hopefully without Zack Snyder's involvement) could replace it.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

"After months of painstaking research from our hard working and passionate team, we're relieved to say we've finally found it."

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The thing they have to do to make this work, is the one thing they will never be willing to do. They need to pull the plug on everything and just stop. Let it die, sit on the license and produce nothing. For years. Maybe even as long as a decade. Marvel can't keep up the pace they have set forever, even though they have people who can see the bigger picture and actually have some decent long term planning. At some point they will be out of ideas, maybe even try and fail to reboot the whole thing. Marvel has pretty effectively blocked out the whole market for comic book movies. There really isn't any room for competitors. The only shot DC has isn't chasing after leftovers... they have to knock Marvel off the top of the ladder. And the only way to do that is to strike when Marvel is faltering... and that isn't now. That won't be until after Avengers 4... and probably not anytime soon after that either... not even probably years after. To win, DC has to have patience and wait until the market wants their product. Something that corporations just can't accept "we can't have ALL THE MONEY RIGHT NOW."

So, on one hand, you criticize corporations for wanting "all the money," yet also claim that DC shouldn't try to compete Marvel because they...can't have all the money (or at least not enough of it).

I can kind of appreciate the idea of DC not being able to compete with Marvel, but the whole "wait until Marvel is faltering" idea isn't going to work. As in, suppose Marvel releases a film that bombs, WB goes "great, now we can strike," but by the time they start producing their movie, Marvel could regain dominance. Or, they produce movies, wait for Marvel to falter, then release them? Yeah...that isn't going to happen.

One idea I really dislike is that of the DCEU rebooting, because everyone and their mother knows the origins of Batman and Superman at this point, we don't need to see them again. While each DCEU movie has had its flaws, the worldbuilding in of itself is fine, so there's that foundation to work from.

Well, they either need to put their big-boy pants on and stop making movies that do nothing but confuse or piss people off and make their universe work OR they discard the shared universe idea and forge their own path away from Marvel's direction and make solid solo character movies that have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

They did 1 movie, man of steel, before jumping head first into failure with Batman vs. Superman, they did no lead up movie to the disastrous Suicide Squad, they got a halfway decent movie out of Wonder Woman, then another disaster with Justice League.

The quality of the movies in of themselves says nothing about the supposed need for them to exist.

I think that proves that yeah, you do have to do build-up movies before the ensemble movie. Guardians jumped into the cast, yes, but it was what, the tenth MCU movie? Hardly an unproven franchise at that point,

GotG is one of the few MCU movies that can exist without any prior knowledge of the MCU. It can't crib on the MCU to succeed like the others can.

Also, other ensemble movies needed character movies? Right...

-Tell that to Harry Potter

-Tell that to Lord of the Rings

-Tell that to the X-Men film series

-Tell that to the Matrix

-Tell that to Mission: Impossible

-Tell that to Star Wars

Bearing in mind that these are all movies that are successful, and there's many more. But even if I extend that to movies that are considered unsuccessful, they at least had the confidence and dignity to not have to rely on individual character movies. Off the top of my head, take the recent Power Rangers movie. While it was bad, that badness had nothing to do with the weaknesses of its cast. Of the five rangers, every one of them gets a backstory within the film itself.

Yeah, um at best 2 of those are ensemble casts. Harry Potter is, as is Lord of the Rings. They have equal main characters, each with their own stories and plots, and each with more or less equal screen time.

Mission impossible is Hunt's story. Star Wars is close, but its still Luke's story. Matrix is Neo's story. X-men is borderline, and I can see it going either way with the materiel, unfortunately the only reoccurring Xman has been Wolverine. While entire movies can go with barely a mention of him, his arc is still the central arc the entire franchise is built around.
But you know, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Marvel's Xmen is an ensemble cast.

DC still doesn't have one that works. Ensemble casts need to be more than just a lot of characters. They need to each have equal importance, equal plots.
In Justice League the Flash and Aquaman might as well not even be in the movie. What they add is not enough to be a main character, thus not part of an ensemble.

But I don't want everyone to get their own movies because honestly I never cared for some of them.

I don't want a Dr. Fate movie, I don't want a Jimmy Olsen movie, I don't want a Swamp Thing movie.

Focus only on the charcaters that everyone cares about the most for goodness sake.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But I don't want everyone to get their own movies because honestly I never cared for some of them.

I don't want a Dr. Fate movie, I don't want a Jimmy Olsen movie, I don't want a Swamp Thing movie.

You can always not watch those films if they make them. They'll not stop putting out rubbish films for A listers whether or not they put out rubbish movies for B or C listers.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

But I don't want everyone to get their own movies because honestly I never cared for some of them.

I don't want a Dr. Fate movie, I don't want a Jimmy Olsen movie, I don't want a Swamp Thing movie.

You can always not watch those films if they make them. They'll not stop putting out rubbish films for A listers whether or not they put out rubbish movies for B or C listers.

Look. I just want my Superhero movies to have characters that actually take themselves seriously and not the actors acting themselves. I don't want even characters like Martian Manhunter and Dr. Fate to crack a joke or two. I especially don't want Superman to spout corny as fuck things like "This looks like a job for Superman!"

I also want blood and fanservice, Yeah I am that kind of guy. Comic Books themselves already gotten away with it and it was all the more awesome for it. I want fanservice in my Comic Book movies and I don't care what prudish people think. I mean we will never see Black Cat in the MCU looking like this:

Spoiler

And I want action and blood. I want when Superman gets punched in the face, his mouth bleeds. I want the action to be viceral when it gets serious.

And for goodness sake adapt certain comic book stories already. Kingdom Come would be the greatest Comic Book movie ever if they do it. Or Justice. Or Infinite Crisis.

I don't mind if the color pallete is grey or a rainbow, but if you want DC's movies to have color than go ahead, I mean comic books are already colorful in their art.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Now there are rumblings that Warner Bros wants to replace Henry with Michael B. Jorden.

 

[WindKnight]

I have no understanding of how you can say Justice League is the final entry in the current DC Film Universe, only to immediately acknowledge that 2 more films are scheduled for release, and 1 for production.

Essentially the current "continuity" from MoS, BvS and JL will come to an end. Wonder Woman 2 will follow the first, but won't be in continuity with the DCCU as it has been established to date. As a rough analogy, it can be thought of as Solo vs SW Episodes VII-IX.

Recasting is a legit option, but the article argues that with both flagship characters potentially being out and the general state of the DCCU to date (in short, it's in a sorry state), the current continuity should end and something new and better (hopefully without Zack Snyder's involvement) could replace it.

The general theory I'm seeing in places is they're going to do the Flash movie as 'flashpoint', the story that led into the new 52, essentially moving into an alternate universe/continuity where everything that worked in the previous movies are kept, while everything that didn't gets tossed.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I have no understanding of how you can say Justice League is the final entry in the current DC Film Universe, only to immediately acknowledge that 2 more films are scheduled for release, and 1 for production.

Essentially the current "continuity" from MoS, BvS and JL will come to an end. Wonder Woman 2 will follow the first, but won't be in continuity with the DCCU as it has been established to date. As a rough analogy, it can be thought of as Solo vs SW Episodes VII-IX.

Recasting is a legit option, but the article argues that with both flagship characters potentially being out and the general state of the DCCU to date (in short, it's in a sorry state), the current continuity should end and something new and better (hopefully without Zack Snyder's involvement) could replace it.

The general theory I'm seeing in places is they're going to do the Flash movie as 'flashpoint', the story that led into the new 52, essentially moving into an alternate universe/continuity where everything that worked in the previous movies are kept, while everything that didn't gets tossed.

How do you make a movie like that even work?! How do you selectively make Batman no longer kill and change Superman's entire personality with that movie?

If they are that desperate for a reboot, they should just cancel all projects and give a 5 year break to start from scratch.

Don't make a movie to serve as a reboot. Just because X-Men Days of Future Past did it means nothing in the end since X-Men Apocalypse happened and everyone hated it.

 

[Agema]

According to this article (and many more besides), Henry Cavill could be done playing Superman in the DCCU films. Not only that, but Ben Aflek may further be done with Batman. Citing various possible reasons, including "scheduling conflicts", talks breaking down about a Shazam! cameo, future Supergirl movie, role as Geralt in The Witcher TV show, it could well mean that the shambles that was the DCCU could be done, with the Justice League film being the last movie in its current incarnation.

Proverbial rats fleeing the sinking ship.

"Hey, stick around in the critically underwhelming, box-office mediocre, second rate comic book franchise! I'm sure you've nothing more financially or artistically valuable to do!"

Back in 2010, Zack Snyder's CV made him look like an obvious go to guy to run a comic book franchise. Anyone who sat through his films, however, would have been a lot more skeptical about what value added he was really bringing.

 

[Elijin]

The general theory I'm seeing in places is they're going to do the Flash movie as 'flashpoint', the story that led into the new 52, essentially moving into an alternate universe/continuity where everything that worked in the previous movies are kept, while everything that didn't gets tossed.

How do you make a movie like that even work?! How do you selectively make Batman no longer kill and change Superman's entire personality with that movie?

If they are that desperate for a reboot, they should just cancel all projects and give a 5 year break to start from scratch.

Don't make a movie to serve as a reboot. Just because X-Men Days of Future Past did it means nothing in the end since X-Men Apocalypse happened and everyone hated it.

By not feeling the need to itemise or address changes?

You have an event, communicate its a new world/universe/timeline and anytime something doesnt line up with the older movie, that's your reason. Dont need to constantly mention it, its just a blanket rule. Oh, you thought character x does y? Well, parallel universe. So on and so on.

Essentially takes a single event, then just let it be. Tell the new story as you like, it's a new setting with shared elements, but not all elements.

 

[Pseudonym]

It is inherently silly to have superhero universes and crossovers. For one, it creates rank and file superhero's, which is thematically rubbish. Sometimes certain hero's will completely overshadow the others. Why would superman need help from other superhero's anyway? What are the others going to do? It also leads to clashes that work on playgrounds but not on the big screen because of the thematic contradictions that arise when characters that are meant to be unbeatable in differing ways are cast against each other. And that is not even getting to how poorly it works to have tragic characters like the Hulk be straightforward good guys in some power rangers set up.

So I see this as a good sign. Now maybe WB can stop wasting their efforts at mimicking Marvel by making 500 movies off one ill conceived concept and make something that stands any chance of being interesting.

It does suck for all the people who would have liked to see a DCCU be good, though I think those people can just as well watch the Marvel movies that they tend to like.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

No one is saying you should. Marvel didn't. There is no 'Bill the Janitor at Peter Parker's School 25 years before the Avengers so that one scene in Avengers 5 makes sense' movie.
But there is a Captain America movie, and an Iron Man Movie, and a Hulk movie, and a Thor movie.

DC just did a single Superman movie, then jumped into Batman, Superman and Wonder woman, then did Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman.

They wanted to be like Marvel, but didn't want to make 5 lead up movies. They got greedy, impatient and trite, and failed.

 

[Kyrian007]

So, on one hand, you criticize corporations for wanting "all the money," yet also claim that DC shouldn't try to compete Marvel because they...can't have all the money (or at least not enough of it).

I can kind of appreciate the idea of DC not being able to compete with Marvel, but the whole "wait until Marvel is faltering" idea isn't going to work. As in, suppose Marvel releases a film that bombs, WB goes "great, now we can strike," but by the time they start producing their movie, Marvel could regain dominance. Or, they produce movies, wait for Marvel to falter, then release them? Yeah...that isn't going to happen.

One idea I really dislike is that of the DCEU rebooting, because everyone and their mother knows the origins of Batman and Superman at this point, we don't need to see them again. While each DCEU movie has had its flaws, the worldbuilding in of itself is fine, so there's that foundation to work from.

Its more like DC (and Disney/Marvel, they just made better decisions) goes in with that attitude of having to have all the money, and in DC's case it has led them to making terrible decisions and awful movies and rushing their product out to compete in a market race they already lost. If they took their time and cared about a quality product more than cash, I wouldn't care a bit. But that isn't their mindset. And yeah, making a movie takes time and makes capitalizing on a failure at Marvel difficult... but when I say faltering what I mean is a big stumble. A movie in production loses a director and another scheduled film is not done enough to slot in, or a few movies in a row tank and they cancel some upcoming projects to consider a complete reboot going forward... something big enough that DC can put together a good movie and capitalize on timing. That's why I said it might take years. But yes that won't happen, they don't have the patience.

But I don't want everyone to get their own movies because honestly I never cared for some of them.

I don't want a Dr. Fate movie, I don't want a Jimmy Olsen movie, I don't want a Swamp Thing movie.

Focus only on the charcaters that everyone cares about the most for goodness sake.

Make a good enough movie though, and you can create an audience for some of these 2nd tier DC characters. Then you CAN throw in a big name like Batman or Superman in a team up movie, and avoid the problem Hawki brought up about seeing an origin movie for the umpteenth time. If DC did make a Dr. Fate movie that does well then your follow up can add in a hero or 2, truncate an origin for one of the bigger heroes who don't need a whole movie fleshing out their backstory in that followup, and you've got a 'new' hero people like plus a big name draw. Its what DC tried to do with MoS and BvS, it was a good idea. It failed because it was built on a big name (Superman) and when MoS failed (to a lot of people) they were building the team-up on an unsound foundation. That's why you start with a lesser name like Fate, or Blue Beetle, or Black Cat, or Spectre... if it fails no one will care. You can cut your losses and try again, something they couldn't do because they started the DCEU with Superman. I do think it would be better for them to start small and work their way up than throw out the big franchise name first. Maybe even get their director and creative team together first with a movie they won't build to a team up movie with. Find that director/writer team that the fans love before getting the shared universe going. Get someone like Joe R. Lansdale to write a Jonah Hex movie. He wrote a great Hex series for DC and a really good Batman animated series episode that made even Jervis Tetch an interesting Batman villain. If it bombs, it doesn't drag down any other part of the franchise. And if it works you have your creative team together, good buzz and word of mouth, and an audience built in that wants to follow the movies.