The short-lived DC Cinematic Universe may be done

[PsychedelicDiamond]

And good riddance to it. They've made one good movie and ever since it came out they were going out of their way to make nothing like it. I still find it baffling how you can go from something like Batman v Superman to something like Suicide Squad in less than a year but somehow they managed to lose all the good will I had for the DCEU as a franchise in that timespan. All they've managed to produce since was Suicide Squad, which was unwatchable garbage, Wonder Woman, which was slightly more watchable garbage and Justice League, which I will never stop taking as a personal insult. Discarding Snyder and Terrio for a talentless hack like Joss Whedon was the straw that broke the camels back.

If that's how they treat their talent they shouldn't be surprised that actors like Cavill and Affleck are running away from them.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So, on one hand, you criticize corporations for wanting "all the money," yet also claim that DC shouldn't try to compete Marvel because they...can't have all the money (or at least not enough of it).

I can kind of appreciate the idea of DC not being able to compete with Marvel, but the whole "wait until Marvel is faltering" idea isn't going to work. As in, suppose Marvel releases a film that bombs, WB goes "great, now we can strike," but by the time they start producing their movie, Marvel could regain dominance. Or, they produce movies, wait for Marvel to falter, then release them? Yeah...that isn't going to happen.

One idea I really dislike is that of the DCEU rebooting, because everyone and their mother knows the origins of Batman and Superman at this point, we don't need to see them again. While each DCEU movie has had its flaws, the worldbuilding in of itself is fine, so there's that foundation to work from.

Its more like DC (and Disney/Marvel, they just made better decisions) goes in with that attitude of having to have all the money, and in DC's case it has led them to making terrible decisions and awful movies and rushing their product out to compete in a market race they already lost. If they took their time and cared about a quality product more than cash, I wouldn't care a bit. But that isn't their mindset. And yeah, making a movie takes time and makes capitalizing on a failure at Marvel difficult... but when I say faltering what I mean is a big stumble. A movie in production loses a director and another scheduled film is not done enough to slot in, or a few movies in a row tank and they cancel some upcoming projects to consider a complete reboot going forward... something big enough that DC can put together a good movie and capitalize on timing. That's why I said it might take years. But yes that won't happen, they don't have the patience.

But I don't want everyone to get their own movies because honestly I never cared for some of them.

I don't want a Dr. Fate movie, I don't want a Jimmy Olsen movie, I don't want a Swamp Thing movie.

Focus only on the charcaters that everyone cares about the most for goodness sake.

Make a good enough movie though, and you can create an audience for some of these 2nd tier DC characters. Then you CAN throw in a big name like Batman or Superman in a team up movie, and avoid the problem Hawki brought up about seeing an origin movie for the umpteenth time. If DC did make a Dr. Fate movie that does well then your follow up can add in a hero or 2, truncate an origin for one of the bigger heroes who don't need a whole movie fleshing out their backstory in that followup, and you've got a 'new' hero people like plus a big name draw. Its what DC tried to do with MoS and BvS, it was a good idea. It failed because it was built on a big name (Superman) and when MoS failed (to a lot of people) they were building the team-up on an unsound foundation. That's why you start with a lesser name like Fate, or Blue Beetle, or Black Cat, or Spectre... if it fails no one will care. You can cut your losses and try again, something they couldn't do because they started the DCEU with Superman. I do think it would be better for them to start small and work their way up than throw out the big franchise name first. Maybe even get their director and creative team together first with a movie they won't build to a team up movie with. Find that director/writer team that the fans love before getting the shared universe going. Get someone like Joe R. Lansdale to write a Jonah Hex movie. He wrote a great Hex series for DC and a really good Batman animated series episode that made even Jervis Tetch an interesting Batman villain. If it bombs, it doesn't drag down any other part of the franchise. And if it works you have your creative team together, good buzz and word of mouth, and an audience built in that wants to follow the movies.

I DO NOT WANT THEM TO START SMALL!!!

I do not want to wait 20 fucking years just to get that "right and proper" Justice League movie with everything set up and proper.

These are movies, not seasonal TV series.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

And good riddance to it. They've made one good movie and ever since it came out they were going out of their way to make nothing like it. I still find it baffling how you can go from something like Batman v Superman to something like Suicide Squad in less than a year but somehow they managed to lose all the good will I had for the DCEU as a franchise in that timespan. All they've managed to produce since was Suicide Squad, which was unwatchable garbage, Wonder Woman, which was slightly more watchable garbage and Justice League, which I will never stop taking as a personal insult. Discarding Snyder and Terrio for a talentless hack like Joss Whedon was the straw that broke the camels back.

If that's how they treat their talent they shouldn't be surprised that actors like Cavill and Affleck are running away from them.

And I am still yet unconvinced that Whedon was already friends with Snyder or that the movie was always gonna be the same.

Putting aside the suicide of Zack Snyder's daughter, I would not have bat an eye if it was any other director taking the reins, but it being JOSS WHEDON, the man who directed the Avengers, they hired him just to make Justice League more like Marvel because they lost faith with the Nolan/Snyder style of Superheroes that made them billions in the Dark Knight.

 

[WindKnight]

SNIP

No one is saying you should. Marvel didn't. There is no 'Bill the Janitor at Peter Parker's School 25 years before the Avengers so that one scene in Avengers 5 makes sense' movie.
But there is a Captain America movie, and an Iron Man Movie, and a Hulk movie, and a Thor movie.

DC just did a single Superman movie, then jumped into Batman, Superman and Wonder woman, then did Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman.

They wanted to be like Marvel, but didn't want to make 5 lead up movies. They got greedy, impatient and trite, and failed.

Arguably it was more they were desperate, and rushed into things. Like, the Harry Potter films were winding down, and they needed a new franchise RIGHT NOW and the bad reception to Man of Steel spooked them.

Heck, in his Really That Bad on BvsS, Moviebob openly says that On Paper a lot of the decisions that went into the initial conception BvsS were good, sound and with logic behind them, but the execution absolutely stunk.

(SNIPPED)

I don't want to be mean, but I think you need to understand, that it seems what you want from comic book movies is EXACTLY what drove people AWAY from the DCEU.

I mean, everyone has different tastes, and your certainly not Buckets Of Blood [https://shortpacked.com/comic/buckets-of-blood] guy, but you seem to want the kind of stuff that's actively (general) audience repellant, and that's NOT because the general audiences have poor taste.

 

[Dansen]

And good riddance to it. They've made one good movie and ever since it came out they were going out of their way to make nothing like it. I still find it baffling how you can go from something like Batman v Superman to something like Suicide Squad in less than a year but somehow they managed to lose all the good will I had for the DCEU as a franchise in that timespan. All they've managed to produce since was Suicide Squad, which was unwatchable garbage, Wonder Woman, which was slightly more watchable garbage and Justice League, which I will never stop taking as a personal insult. Discarding Snyder and Terrio for a talentless hack like Joss Whedon was the straw that broke the camels back.

If that's how they treat their talent they shouldn't be surprised that actors like Cavill and Affleck are running away from them.

And I am still yet unconvinced that Whedon was already friends with Snyder or that the movie was always gonna be the same.

Putting aside the suicide of Zack Snyder's daughter, I would not have bat an eye if it was any other director taking the reins, but it being JOSS WHEDON, the man who directed the Avengers, they hired him just to make Justice League more like Marvel because they lost faith with the Nolan/Snyder style of Superheroes that made them billions in the Dark Knight.

Equating a hack like Zack Snyder to Christopher Nolan is an insult. The Dark Knight Trilogy actually has craft and effort instead of being cgi nightmares like the superman movies. Zach doesn't have a single critically acclaimed film under his belt, he makes action schlock but likes to pretend that he has anything of value to say. He peaked with 300 and has been steadily declining since.

I'm glad Shazaam is so goofy, say what you will, at least their is no pretense that the movie is important, its just trying to entertain an audience.

 

[Kyrian007]

snip

I DO NOT WANT THEM TO START SMALL!!!

I do not want to wait 20 fucking years just to get that "right and proper" Justice League movie with everything set up and proper.

These are movies, not seasonal TV series.

If its how long it takes to do it right, I don't mind waiting. WB realized they had royally screwed up their Batman franchise in 1997. I'm sure they were planning to have another out by 99 or 00, but they waited 8 years until they had the right pieces together... and that netted us Batman Begins. I don't really see a problem with not doing it until you can do it better. Better Batman Begins in 2005 than 3 more Joel Schumacher Batman films made to sell more fast-food to-go cups and happy-meal toys. Better to acknowledge mistakes and work longer to correct them than just crank out another movie for a quick buck.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

snip

I DO NOT WANT THEM TO START SMALL!!!

I do not want to wait 20 fucking years just to get that "right and proper" Justice League movie with everything set up and proper.

These are movies, not seasonal TV series.

If its how long it takes to do it right, I don't mind waiting. WB realized they had royally screwed up their Batman franchise in 1997. I'm sure they were planning to have another out by 99 or 00, but they waited 8 years until they had the right pieces together... and that netted us Batman Begins. I don't really see a problem with not doing it until you can do it better. Better Batman Begins in 2005 than 3 more Joel Schumacher Batman films made to sell more fast-food to-go cups and happy-meal toys. Better to acknowledge mistakes and work longer to correct them than just crank out another movie for a quick buck.

How will that retain my interest? As you can see my interest in Superhero movies are now at rock bottom because as of now none of them appeal to my tastes.

I hate Marvel and I am dissapointed that DC is gonna follow their exact direction. Superheroes are completely lame now to me. They used to be awesome, edgy, not hesitating to pull punches and challenge the audiance. Now everyone just wants stagnant mediocrity of childish things we have already seen ages ago. We don't need another Justice League movie just to get it right this time because we have the Cartoon show that did it perfect ages ago.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

SNIP

No one is saying you should. Marvel didn't. There is no 'Bill the Janitor at Peter Parker's School 25 years before the Avengers so that one scene in Avengers 5 makes sense' movie.
But there is a Captain America movie, and an Iron Man Movie, and a Hulk movie, and a Thor movie.

DC just did a single Superman movie, then jumped into Batman, Superman and Wonder woman, then did Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman.

They wanted to be like Marvel, but didn't want to make 5 lead up movies. They got greedy, impatient and trite, and failed.

Arguably it was more they were desperate, and rushed into things. Like, the Harry Potter films were winding down, and they needed a new franchise RIGHT NOW and the bad reception to Man of Steel spooked them.

Heck, in his Really That Bad on BvsS, Moviebob openly says that On Paper a lot of the decisions that went into the initial conception BvsS were good, sound and with logic behind them, but the execution absolutely stunk.

(SNIPPED)

I don't want to be mean, but I think you need to understand, that it seems what you want from comic book movies is EXACTLY what drove people AWAY from the DCEU.

I mean, everyone has different tastes, and your certainly not Buckets Of Blood [https://shortpacked.com/comic/buckets-of-blood] guy, but you seem to want the kind of stuff that's actively (general) audience repellant, and that's NOT because the general audiences have poor taste.

Part of my tastes does includes Buckets of Blood for some things. I enjoy Thrash Metal and Extreme Metal like this:

 

[Elijin]

@Samtemdo8

Without quoting, because you've done it a bunch in your last few posts..

Why does it have to / should it please you? After all, you accept that the trends being followed are widely popular, and appealing to a larger audience is just business 101.

Sorry if that comes across wrong, it could be me misreading your tone, but yeah. Any time an individual is saying 'What about ME. What about MY tastes?' when talking about something designed for mass consumption... *shrug*

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

. They used to be awesome, edgy, not hesitating to pull punches and challenge the audiance.

Wanton violence and explosions do not challenge the audience, it's oversaturated to the point of mediocrity.

And Goofy Humor isn't?

 

[Kerg3927]

Personally, I've reached super hero movie burnout in the past couple of years. I've seen all but the latest DCCU, MCU, and X-Men movies, and in the end most of them are merely passable, predictable, mediocre entertainment at best. Maybe it's because the CGI special effects don't have the wow factor that they once had.

Logan was a game changer for me. I wish they would make more super hero movies like that, with deeper, darker, and more mature tones/themes and better character development.

I'm looking forward to the new Witcher series with Cavill.

 

[WindKnight]

. They used to be awesome, edgy, not hesitating to pull punches and challenge the audiance.

Wanton violence and explosions do not challenge the audience, it's oversaturated to the point of mediocrity.

And Goofy Humor isn't?

GOTG2 deals with abusive families, and dealing with the trauma caused by it, has a character afraid of abandonment slowly realising that his companions all really love him and won't abandon him.

Ragnarok has thor choose to sacrifice his homeland for the good of his people and the universe as a whole.

Black Panther talks about the consequences of colonialism and slavery, the dangers of unthinking isolationism and blind adherence to tradition.

All three talk about men coming to see awe insiring fathers they adore/adored for the flawed people they are, and dealing with their mistakes/evil.

All three have lashings of goofy humour, but are all deeper, more meaningful and much more mature than the DCEU's shallow gritty grimness.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

. They used to be awesome, edgy, not hesitating to pull punches and challenge the audiance.

Wanton violence and explosions do not challenge the audience, it's oversaturated to the point of mediocrity.

And Goofy Humor isn't?

GOTG2 deals with abusive families, and dealing with the trauma caused by it, has a character afraid of abandonment slowly realising that his companions all really love him and won't abandon him.

Ragnarok has thor choose to sacrifice his homeland for the good of his people and the universe as a whole.

Black Panther talks about the consequences of colonialism and slavery, the dangers of unthinking isolationism and blind adherence to tradition.

All three talk about men coming to see awe insiring fathers they adore/adored for the flawed people they are, and dealing with their mistakes/evil.

All three have lashings of goofy humour, but are all deeper, more meaningful and much more mature than the DCEU's shallow gritty grimness.

Using Guardians of the Galaxy as a point of defence?, the same movies that shows me this right after Groot's death:


And Black Panther showed nothing about Colonialism and Slavery. I watch the movie, whatever messages that movie had was barely present. You do not see Non-Wakandan Black People getting oppressed at all.

There is no deeper meaning. Its all just popcorn entertainment.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Can I ask why no one brings up Green Lantern 2008 as a prime example that Warner Bros. still can't bring out a decent DC movies even without Snyder at all?

And that movie was an attempt to make their own Cinematic universe then and there.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

To continue from the OP, the Mail *spit* confirms the story, it's no longer speculation. Halfway down it explains: "After The Hollywood Reporter reported that Henry Cavill may not star in future Superman appearances because Warner Bros intended on shifting focus to a Supergirl movie, the actor confirmed he would not be returning to the franchise."

I still can't believe I'm linking to the same tabloid rag a second time, but it also has an article about Ben Affleck confirming the same, citing an alcohol addiction as the root cause of his departure.

And I am still yet unconvinced that Whedon was already friends with Snyder or that the movie was always gonna be the same.

Snyder was the director of Justice League, as he was for MoS and BvS. His personal tragedy, something no one should ever have to suffer, understandably forced him away from JL to be with his family. WB brought Whedon in to finish the film, and his way of doing that involved reshooting about 30ish% of the movie (15-20% according to here), re-colour grading the whole thing and re-editing it as well. The movie was going to be more dark/edgy Snyder bollocks, then it became more colourful and humourous and the end result was what we got.

Equating a hack like Zack Snyder to Christopher Nolan is an insult. The Dark Knight Trilogy actually has craft and effort instead of being cgi nightmares like the superman movies.

That's a point I've suggested without outright stating, but I completely agree. I think 300 and Watchmen were lightning in a bottle, based on timeless graphic novels that were themselves, striking and of such quality that even he couldn't mess them up (altho according to many, at least in the case of Watchmen he pretty much did). But even giving him those two, the DC films were terrible.

Nolan did a great thing with Christian Bale's trilogy. While the 3rd wasn't so strong, the second was a masterpiece of cinema, not just in the superhero genre, but in film. The same director who made Memento, Insomnia and the Prestige (also with Bale), all fantastic, quality films. The Dark Knight trilogy were DCs best films since 1989. Snyder is not in the same league.

MoS tried to make Superman as dark and broody as Batman and it just doesn't fit. He had no arc, Amy Adams is a terrible Lois Lane, the sheer destruction was yet-another-9/11-metaphor of disaster porn. People complained Routh didn't punch enough people in Superman Returns, so they went OTT here and that's all we got. No character drama, no tense moments, just invincible gods breaking buildings. BvS was so bad I don't want to dwell on it for long. Jesse Eisenberg, an otherwise capable enough actor was the worst Lex Luthor there has ever been in any media. Batman's vision and "spy talk" with Gal Gadot was painful to watch. The Martha thing, the CGi-tastic Darkseid fight and the "death" of Superman (which had no emotional weight behind it at all since we knew it was meaningless).

While not Snyder's creation, Suicide Squad was just bad. After 20 minutes of watching someone eat steak, a bunch of people we don't care about or remember along with Will Smith and Margot Robbie start killing black blobs to solve a problem they created just by existing. Jared Leto is not a good actor; I don't rate him in anything and his Joker was as bad as or worse than Eisenberg's Lex Luthor.

Wonder Woman wasn't all awful. The first and third acts were pretty bad but the middle act, from when she leaves Themyscira until after the castle, was really, really good. The bit in London was so well done and a great way to show the character being so out of place. And in France when the cloak came off, liberating the rural town was the highlight. The end third was terrible tho with awful CGI villain yelling terrible dialogue while having a boring CGI fight.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

To continue from the OP, the Mail *spit* confirms the story, it's no longer speculation. Halfway down it explains: "After The Hollywood Reporter reported that Henry Cavill may not star in future Superman appearances because Warner Bros intended on shifting focus to a Supergirl movie, the actor confirmed he would not be returning to the franchise."

I still can't believe I'm linking to the same tabloid rag a second time, but it also has an article about Ben Affleck confirming the same, citing an alcohol addiction as the root cause of his departure.

And I am still yet unconvinced that Whedon was already friends with Snyder or that the movie was always gonna be the same.

Snyder was the director of Justice League, as he was for MoS and BvS. His personal tragedy, something no one should ever have to suffer, understandably forced him away from JL to be with his family. WB brought Whedon in to finish the film, and his way of doing that involved reshooting about 30ish% of the movie (15-20% according to here), re-colour grading the whole thing and re-editing it as well. The movie was going to be more dark/edgy Snyder bollocks, then it became more colourful and humourous and the end result was what we got.

Equating a hack like Zack Snyder to Christopher Nolan is an insult. The Dark Knight Trilogy actually has craft and effort instead of being cgi nightmares like the superman movies.

That's a point I've suggested without outright stating, but I completely agree. I think 300 and Watchmen were lightning in a bottle, based on timeless graphic novels that were themselves, striking and of such quality that even he couldn't mess them up (altho according to many, at least in the case of Watchmen he pretty much did). But even giving him those two, the DC films were terrible.

Nolan did a great thing with Christian Bale's trilogy. While the 3rd wasn't so strong, the second was a masterpiece of cinema, not just in the superhero genre, but in film. The same director who made Memento, Insomnia and the Prestige (also with Bale), all fantastic, quality films. The Dark Knight trilogy were DCs best films since 1989. Snyder is not in the same league.

MoS tried to make Superman as dark and broody as Batman and it just doesn't fit. He had no arc, Amy Adams is a terrible Lois Lane, the sheer destruction was yet-another-9/11-metaphor of disaster porn. People complained Routh didn't punch enough people in Superman Returns, so they went OTT here and that's all we got. No character drama, no tense moments, just invincible gods breaking buildings. BvS was so bad I don't want to dwell on it for long. Jesse Eisenberg, an otherwise capable enough actor was the worst Lex Luthor there has ever been in any media. Batman's vision and "spy talk" with Gal Gadot was painful to watch. The Martha thing, the CGi-tastic Darkseid fight and the "death" of Superman (which had no emotional weight behind it at all since we knew it was meaningless).

While not Snyder's creation, Suicide Squad was just bad. After 20 minutes of watching someone eat steak, a bunch of people we don't care about or remember along with Will Smith and Margot Robbie start killing black blobs to solve a problem they created just by existing. Jared Leto is not a good actor; I don't rate him in anything and his Joker was as bad as or worse than Eisenberg's Lex Luthor.

Wonder Woman wasn't all awful. The first and third acts were pretty bad but the middle act, from when she leaves Themyscira until after the castle, was really, really good. The bit in London was so well done and a great way to show the character being so out of place. And in France when the cloak came off, liberating the rural town was the highlight. The end third was terrible tho with awful CGI villain yelling terrible dialogue while having a boring CGI fight.

And what about Green Lantern? That movie had nothing to do with Snyder at all. Infact the director of that movie is the same guy that did Goldeneye and the first Zorro movie.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I don't understand how anyone can say that the DC cinematic universe was "short-lived."

They've had 5 movies already come out, 1 which has finished production and is ready to be released, 1 that's almost finished, and 1 currently filming.

8 movies is not short-lived by any means, and I'm frankly astounded that it's lasted as long as it did considering the quality of the movies.