The Stagnation of the Escapist forums.

[O277]

Great job getting that new LCD monitor.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Yeah, I've seen people banned for things that didn't seem like bannable offenses, and other times left unpunished for posting what basically amounted to YouTube comments ("your mum does *needlessly graphic description* to me" or "your face is stupid," etc) But that's another matter. Regarding the community, there's definitely an elitist attitude here you don't get at a lot of other places (well, not in such amounts). It used to be kinda defensible, seeing as we had intelligent posters who would post 3-page OPs across a great number of subjects, and the length would be justified (Iron Ninja was a great poster, I miss him).

Nowadays, though, the idea of really anyone on the forums thinking The Escapist is a "better" quality forum than anywhere else is kind of laughable. It's a different kind of stupid is all. It's not any better or worse than what you'd find on YouTube, it's just that on this site the dummies write slightly longer posts. And even that's not as true as it once was.

For good or ill, the "I'm so evil and cool" Escapist posting cliche seems to be the wave of the future.

My guess as to be people being banned for seemingly non-bannable offences is that they are 'straw that broke the camel's back' type situations. We all know the poster in question had a history of belittling and insulting people frequently.

Pity though, as I always got on ok with him and if he'd just been nicer to people he'd have had some intelligent contributions to make.

The amount of flaming going on is definately getting a little out of hand.

It's still my favorite place on the web though, love it to bits.

 

[P1p3s]

[quote="Borrowed Time" post="18.162316.4160289
All too often I find a topic that I have an opinion about and begin to write a novella, only to hit the back button with a sigh knowing it will either be ignored or spark some sort of inane debate that leads to either a waste of forum space or a harboring of resentment. [/quote]

I'm sad to hear that because I think I'd find it interesting to read what you have to say.

Like the OP.

I'm glad this thread was started because I can see there is a list (albeit small) of people whose style, tone and POV I want to hear and discuss.

That DOESN'T mean I agree with everything they are saying, but sometimes talking to someone who doesn't see things my way but has a intelligble case is more interesting than some who just agrees with you.

To me this is the nature of discussion. For stalking purposes I have added you to my friends list and will monitor your posts - if only for my own evil ends ;o)

 

[Quoth]

Quite honestly I find that most forums have a high proportion of low intellect quotiant participants. It is more normal in the world for their to be fewer articulate people willing to open up to proper dialogue than there are trolls coming along just to inflame you and laugh at their (start sarcasm) cunning ability (end sarcasm) to incite you in to anger.

I came to Escapist following posts on Gamefaqs about Yahtzee's reviews. My post count is low as until a month or so ago only lurked or watched videos. Personally I see very little trend toward better or worse opinion, only that as the popularity of the site grows the proportion of the inane grows. That said I still came out of lurking so there must have been enough interesting posts here in the last 2 months to make that happen.

One of my favourite things about Gfaqs is the ignore function. I have a couple of dozen users on it. The disruptive and pointless drivel that gets generated on that site is automatically shielded from my eyes. At Escapist you have to employ your own ignore function and sift through the twaddle and do so with patience and ruthlessness.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Though I wasn't even aware of The Escapist when the supposed "golden days" existed, I did lurk a little before joining. I'd have to agree with you Goomba. There's only so many times that you can argue the same points over the same topics before it does nothing but add to your own continual loss of sanity. This is made even more apparent, unfortunately, when actually holding intelligent debate over the internet. Special olympics anyone? Ah, what a cliche and one I'm very guilty of participating in.

I think the "golden days" are something of a misnomer. They were "better than today" is all. Before I got here it was all peaches and cream, before you got here I am sure you got the same impression from my comments. If the downward spiral continues, doubtless you will lament for the good old days when some new posters arrive (or maybe you won't, but I am sure you understand the point.)

The other problem you touched on is that text is such a bad medium for conveying emotion, but such a great medium for provoking it. It is quite possible to for someone to type something, without intending any kind of malice, and without meaning to offend, only for dozens of people all over the world to feel like they have just been told that someone wants them dead. What is particularly tragic about this phenomena is that these people would probably get on brilliantly if they met up in a pub and were talking about stuff over a few drinks. I, like you, will admit to falling into this trap myself, and becoming an intolerant and socially-inept asshole. When I do this I like to think I am big enough to apologise and make amends, (as I have noticed you do too), but I don't always succeed in catching myself falling.

Then you have the other kind of person, the kind who finds freedom from social restrictions intoxicating, and finds the internet the perfect arena to let their sociopathic tendancies run free. There are also the ITGs (Internet Tough Guys) who believe that insulting and belittling people who can't respond by giving them a thick ear amounts to them having courage and strength. Ohhh the ironing.

 

[Trivun]

Are we dying again? I thought it was about time.

I'm not really sure, we seem to be dying every few weeks. Every so often we get a flood of new people, some of whom (like this guy, though admittedly he's been here a fair while) post good stuff and some of whom just come to troll and post inane repeat threads. And they get harassed by some of the older members who are arrogant and become grammar Nazis and search bar Nazis, thus discouraging other, decent new posters from returning. But as to what the OP says, I agree. I don't always read through people's posts, but that's usually when there's more than a couple of pages already and it'll take me more than about ten minutes to read the whole thread. Otherwise, I do read and I do reply to and quote people. I do treat a lot of threads as a conversation. And I do like to see new and original threads.

That's something else that really bugs me, too. Original threads. Every time we get a repeat thread, people start posting and either they'll answer with the same response as they do every other time, or they'll become Search Bar Nazis and piss everybody off. However, these same people who complain about there being few original threads don't bother to come up with original topics themselves. I myself came up with a unique and completely original thread last night. As of this morning, only four people have replied. It's had plenty of views but barely any replies. Do people not want original threads then? That, my friends, is what's helping this site go downhill. Hypocrites like the search bar Nazis who complain about everything and yet ignore any attempts to change.

 

[Daedalus1942]

*sigh*

You've been here for 90 posts so you really don't know the forum well enough to understand it. Threads do derail, and a lot of them disintegrate into random comments but that is because there are a lot of threads that defy discussion beyond the stating of opinions. Where I've been involved in a thread and had something interesting to say, I've found that people are very responsive, both for and against my opinion, often giving their reasoning. The way that getting quoted lets you know that someone has responded to you promotes this sort of 2 or sometimes three way conversation, though it does contribute to to threads with several unrelated conversations going on. This criticism is largely unwarranted, and particularly presumptuous for an inexperienced user.

*sigh* You're not exactly an expert on this forum either. You've been here a whole 2 and a half months.
I've been here longer than you and I'm still not an expert on this forum. This type of response is the sort of elitism that the OP is referring to, and he's right.

1. There's nothing elitist about my response. I don't pretend to be "an expert" on this forum, and I'm not interested in whether or not you think you are. I was criticising the OP for not getting it right, and putting that down to his lack of involvement in the forum. If you think he's right, why not give some reasoning or something other than a mere statement of your opinion and the impressive demonstration of your ability to read dates. I think there are plenty of threads that give rise to healthy discussions and I for one have enjoyed plenty of them. Someone who doesn't post a lot probably won't notice these in and amongst the myriad threads about MW2 or 'Your favourite/most hated ', hence the criticism. It isn't elitism, it's a valid point.

2.I would suggest that of the two of our posts, it is yours rather than mine that falls more squarely into what the OP has tried to identify as a problem, namely that users post and opinion without any discussion or justification and so leave no proper scope for discussion. Perhaps before criticising others you should take a look at yourself. Oh, and assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, I've been on The Escapist since it was a pdf magazine, not that you'll remember that.

3. The reason that the OP thinks it was better before is that people don't remember the boring fad threads from before, so only talk about the good ones. This naturally makes the past seem like a better place.

P.S. He may have had an account longer, but that means very little in terms of contributions. Also, your tone is beginning to annoy me.

I'm pretty sure most of the posters on this thread would side with my opinion of you being just a tad hypocritical. If anything the fact that he has less posts mean he's observed much more than you or I have rather than just added his opinion to the neverending swell of crap that builds up sometimes. Also my tone is beginning to annoy you? I've never met you...
You're the one that gave the pretentious *sigh*. I was just trying to prove a point by adding it in there and showing how you came across as very arrogant and elitist. If anything, you've just proven that you annoy yourself. I was being subjective, and you've just basically attacked me, therefore proving that you're a hypocrite.
P.S You're right, I had no idea it used to be PDF magazine as I'm a newbie (and I'm more than happy to admit that), but once again this statement is just proving your elitism towards others.
Your opinion on this subject just seems to keep getting more confusing as the thread goes on...

 

[MiracleOfSound]

[

That DOESN'T mean I agree with everything they are saying, but sometimes talking to someone who doesn't see things my way but has a intelligble case is more interesting than some who just agrees with you.

To me this is the nature of discussion.

Exactly.

You see, this is where the forum seems to have gone a bit wonky lately, people tend to take offence to anyone disagreeing with thier opinion and get on the offensive or defensive.

It's nowhere near youtube levels yet, but you can still see the influence in certain members.

 

[OpiateChicken]

1. There are lots of threads that do have healthy and interesting discussion. So your point that there are none or very few is wrong.
2. The reason you may not have stumbled across such debate is because you do not post often. Posting and being quoted makes it a lot easier to keep the track of a conversation, develop ideas, and assess your arguments.

Alright, I'll bite. You are correct that I don't post that often, but I do lurk quite often, and did for a long time before joining, as well. In the time period in which I lurked, I noticed there was a bit more discussion and acknowledgement going on than there is now. And I suppose you saying that there are lots of threads that have healthy and interesting discussion is subjective, because although I do find some of it to be that way, the vast majority is not, as some other posters have mentioned.

3. This quotation system lends itself to fragemented threads so it is often hard to follow the various threads of conversation within a thread unless you are party to one or more of them.

The length of time you and I have relatively spent is entirely irrelevant to the points I've been making. It isn't a question of who posted more, it is a question of who has analysed the situation better. If you look over my post again, and stop trying to 'win', you'll notice that I don't rely on having posted more. I sincerely hope that you prove yourself less childish in your reply, because I had hoped better after your OP.

First off, why the hostility here?... I'm not trying to 'win' anything, I am merely trying to prove my point, and you are trying to prove yours, and whether I can or not in this debate also seems to be highly irrelevant to anything, since this entire topic is, of course, subjective, in regards to how engaging you find the discussion; I am fairly sure, though, that it is a fact that there has been less quoted material over the last few months. I have no way of proving this except for what I've read, which is why I noted in my OP that I'm a relative n00b.

I suppose this is one of those times when we'll have to agree to disagree, no? I don't see any way of proving this either way, unless you have access to site records, and even then that doesn't prove any depth of discussion on any board. This thread was meant to encourage people to engage in lively discussion, not to bash people who have consistantly been making it.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I come here for intelligent discussion and game related news, there always will be foolish people making foolish threads, but why punish them for being themselves?

At least they're not trying to be something they're not, they embrace their foolishness and live with it.

Also, a lot of people who say they think they're smarter than 95% of the people around them are angry with humanity, talking in hyperbole or just in a bad mood.

 

[Doug]

No, no we can't.

It never existed, and the slightly 'better' forum of the past existed because the mods could keep a track of the small populace.

Overall, I don't understand the purpose of this thread. The majority aren't going to read this and it will sink because of the lack of any discussion.

The people who come on here and the way these people act is directly related. The old glitter on a turd analogy fits quite well. Half a year on the site and you've convinced yourself things are changing. They aren't changing, they cycle is just being sped up.

Whats worse is that every issue you raise can be pointed out in this post.

Agreed. There was no golden age, and frankly, the forum has always been this way as far as I can tell. And whilst I acknowledge there are problem, everyone seems to make a bigger deal out of them than they really need to be.

I thought this OP was very amusing and articulate! So good job on that.

But, to answer your points, yes it would indeed be nice to see some extended discussion going on here with a lot of back and forth between different posters instead of this bulletin style posting with perhaps one or two replies to a post. However, it's entirely possible that the Escapist just isn't the place for this kind of in-depth discussion. Just as one wouldn't flick onto the Discovery channel to watch "Girls Gone Wild" neither would one flick onto any of the mass of generic vox populi channels such as Bravo or Dave expecting to see an in-depth intellectual debate. This doesn't mean that the latter is absolutely and always the former's inferior, it simply means they cater to different desires. This may be the case with the Escapist.

Whilst it's certainly less fulfilling to splurge one's own opinions and thoughts out into the web with no chance of a rebuttal or follow up comment which might, perhaps, alter the way the original commenter thinks about an issue, it's nonetheless true that most people (perhaps even all) simply aren't permanently in a debating mood. There are a lot of forums out there which cater to debate on specific issues which are probably a better choice for a debating centre than a hugely populated and (frankly) disoriented forum like this. This site is, referring back to the TV analogy, the Bravo of forums. Its real focus (gaming) is certainly the driving force behind most points, but it regularly goes off on tangents down pointless paths and ends up as an unrevolutionary way to waste some time.

Perhaps, rather than presume that all sites should be the Discovery channel of the forum world you might pick and choose forums for different moods and needs?

A very good point, though I think the reason why this place is more of a 'Bravo' than a 'Discovery Channel' is because of the sheer volume of comments - someone just having arrived at a 7+ page thread isn't likely to read through each post before adding his own thoughts.

Are we dying again? I thought it was about time.

Like PC gaming, people have been telling us so for as long as I've been on the forum In fact, now I think about it, I'm pretty sure there was a very similar post to the OP back shortly after I joined.

Basically, there is the effect of 'in my day, it was better' about a supposed Golden Age where every thread as enlightened and every poster was thoughtful, and respectful. You know, "I was here before it was cool" symodrone . Anywho, the only comment that has me confused is this supposed Elitism. I've not see it, aside from a very rare handful of 'please make an effort to type like a human being and not a l33ter' posts.

 

[Dommyboy]

Wow, it's just like viewing 4chan! Now we just need to wait for the shit storm of cam whores and it'll be just the same. Along with that, we'll have the Oldfags and Newfags of the Escapist and nostalgia threads on previous threads.

One thing that is good though is how the amount of 'Ask A' threads have been cut down, or maybe I just completely block them out of my mind.

The mods seem to have become a bit more open and less contempt with waving the ban hammer around too lately, which is nice though they're still keeping the place in check well. I don't think the forums are going to die, just descend and reascend in intellectual threads.

 

[Snork Maiden]

Are we dying again? I thought it was about time.

We're going the way of PC gaming at this rate! i.e. apparently perpetually dieing.

OP: Perhaps I wasn't around during this mythical golden age but these past few months have been the best internetting time I've ever had. I don't see any stagnation, except maybe on Wednesdays.

Agreed. Pretty much every forum ever has a "mythical golden age" and is slowly stagnating to death. I've been to forums where I used to believe this was happening. In reality the only difference between then and now (in the majority of cases) is that a lot of people from then have moved on, and older forum members don't (for whatever reason) bond as well with newer forum members.

*sigh*
snip

*sigh* You're not exactly an expert on this forum either. You've been here a whole 2 and a half months.
I've been here longer than you and I'm still not an expert on this forum. This type of response is the sort of elitism that the OP is referring to, and he's right.
-Edit- Also, the original poster has been here longer than you, hahaha.

Hilariously you are guilty of doing the exact same thing you berate someone else for doing ("you've not been here long either so be quiet"), except make it worse by throwing a little dig in at the end.

I completely disagree that this forum suffers from elitism. I wouldn't argue its the paragon of sensible and enjoyable conversation that some people make it out to be, but it has been one of the most accepting and easy to get into forums I've ever visited.

 

[Daedalus1942]

Are we dying again? I thought it was about time.

We're going the way of PC gaming at this rate! i.e. apparently perpetually dieing.

OP: Perhaps I wasn't around during this mythical golden age but these past few months have been the best internetting time I've ever had. I don't see any stagnation, except maybe on Wednesdays.

Agreed. Pretty much every forum ever has a "mythical golden age" and is slowly stagnating to death. I've been to forums where I used to believe this was happening. In reality the only difference between then and now (in the majority of cases) is that a lot of people from then have moved on, and older forum members don't (for whatever reason) bond as well with newer forum members.

*sigh*
snip

*sigh* You're not exactly an expert on this forum either. You've been here a whole 2 and a half months.
I've been here longer than you and I'm still not an expert on this forum. This type of response is the sort of elitism that the OP is referring to, and he's right.
-Edit- Also, the original poster has been here longer than you, hahaha.

Hilariously you are guilty of doing the exact same thing you berate someone else for doing ("you've not been here long either so be quiet"), except make it worse by throwing a little dig in at the end.

I completely disagree that this forum suffers from elitism. I wouldn't argue its the paragon of sensible and enjoyable conversation that some people make it out to be, but it has been one of the most accepting and easy to get into forums I've ever visited.

How the hell am I doing the exact same thing as he? I was mimicking his attitude towards the original poster (henceforth the *sigh*). I'm being subjective and saying I've been here alot longer than him and I'm not an expert myself (as I have explicitly stated), so how can he claim he knows everything about this forum?

 

[CognitiveDissonance]

Hello all,

My first post as you can see, unfortunately it had to be in such a disheartening thread. While it may be overly presumptuous to present a social commentary regarding a forum on which i have never posted (i have lurked for quite a long time however), it seems to me that the escapist is merely continuing it's usual cycle. Like every forum, 'the escapist' is merely the sum of it's parts, in this case the sum can unfortunately be less than its parts, predominantly due to trolls etc..

On the recent issue of MaxTheReaper's ban, i personally found this to be very unfortunate. He was an entertaining poster, despite his evident elitism. While many found him annoying, his general intelligence was undeniable, although he fell into the trap of resorting to abuse when reasonable debate fails. Members such as this seem necessary to any forum, each of you know his name and personality, he is a recognized member of the community, both liked and disliked by many. These personal relationships conferred via the medium of forums break down the cold anonymity of internet communication and make the forum a more personable and enjoyable place. Whilst I am fully aware that he repeatedly infringed upon rules involving unreasonable conduct, i feel that banning a member with such a high post count and evident interest in the escapist community was counterproductive as his contributions far outweighed the negative effects of his mild slander.

The reason I signed up, a mere 5 minutes ago, was to participate in discussions such as this and the many others, particularly in the off-topic discussion, although I am unhealthily partial to gaming also. In my opinion, the community of the escapist is still alive an kicking, it can be seen in the participation in this thread. Just looking over each post, many people have quoted previous posters, demonstrating that they have in fact perused each post, despite their frequent length. When even a small amount of people are willing to respect the other members of their forum, when they are under no duress to do so, i believe that there is truly hope for the environment to continue to progress and be an enjoyable place for everyone.

In the possible reality that i am completely off track, please, point me to one of these other internet forums i am hearing so much about ... not 4chan

 

[VinnyKings]

This is a great post that most people won't even read through. It's disappointing that so many people do think of these forums as just a place to burn time. It's also true that people don't even want to talk about the topic if you look at the threads with polls attached to them.

I hope that the in the future more people will voice their opinion in more details.

Btw 4chan is lol.