The Steam/Valve arguement, (Question! not starting a flame war)

[DoPo]

Oh, the worst part is that you don't actually buy games. You purchase subscriptions. Subscriptions which can be cancelled at any time by the publishers. You do not own any of the games you bought on Steam, you merely hold a license that can be revoked.

Care yo point out to any recent, and by recent, I mean from before even Steam, software that you buy and own? Because there aren't that many.

Still nothing to do with DRM being draconian. How often has it happened that a publisher has pulled their game off Steam and everybody lost access to it? I recently saw that Second Sight is no longer on Steam, I don't know, but I'd guess that people who bought it either still can access it (the most likely scenario) or alternatively (less likely) they got a compensation of some sort.

Which, sure, is fairly common software practice, but when you factor in that games you buy physically could one day, at the behest of the publisher (or Valve), become useless...

Oh, wait, you knew that? Oh, no but let's rag on it anyway... And what if you scratch your disks? Or break them. Or lose them. From what I've observed so far, the you are actually less likely to lose a digital copy of a game, than a physical one. But come on, let's go on with the fear mongering! Let's go, give me the usual retort of "But I tend for my disks" and I'll tell you that's irrelevant. What if you do? The possibility for a disk to break is still there - as in disks can break or become useless in other ways - it is a fact. And you can lose access to a digital game - it is a fact, so let's just be talking facts. Now, from observation (unless you care to provide any reputable statistics), disks tend to break/be scratched/whatever way more often than a digital game up ad disappears on you. I mean, I certainly have had dozens of CDs (not only game ones) get destroyed, you probably have as well. Among me and a couple of friends, we've had hundreds, if not a thousand, disks get out of order and we did care for them, most often we weren't the reason for their demise. Aside from Origin, there are very few cases when digital games do the same. Yes, it happens, but at a way lesser frequency.

I'd consider it a threat if it was at Origin levels (although, to be frank, I think they are better at it now). It's not, it isn't. And you can even do something about it.

Also, that does not support your claim of "draconian" DRM in any way.

Especially when Valve also withholds the right to shut down the Steam servers permanently at any point if they have to or want to.

Sure they can. And a bunch of masked guys can set your collection of disks on fire. Now, attempt and guess for which one you're more likely to receive notice first. Unless Valve literally just pull the plug and immediately sprint off (probability: too close to 0 to even be considered) I wouldn't worry as much. I mean, yeah - they might need to close Steam. I fully agree with that. However, they've said that they'll attempt to give people access to their games before they close off. Now, you might not believe that, yes, they might not bother or just fail, however, this is still really unlikely to be the end of your Steam library - they can sell Steam to somebody else. Which is what happens if you go bankrupt - you sell all your stuff to other people. Really. So somebody would pick up Steam. And assuming that steam is still shut down...hey, remember those many people that have games on Steam you mentioned? How hard would it be for one (or more) of them to make a refuge for Steam clients (as in, the people)? Where you can still get access to Steam games. Sure, illegal, but it would happen, I guarantee it. I'm pretty sure that it can get backing from higher up, too - like Pirate Bay. Alternatively, other DD distributions can take advantage of it: "Come to us, and you'll get your Steam games" - also a very high probability.

But most importantly - again not related to DRM being draconian.

Some people are fine with not actually owning the games they buy. Some are disgusted. But all this stuff is buried under a lot of legal jargon; the average user won't even know about this stuff. The fact is that a lot of people are buying games on Steam under the assumption that it will be theirs forever, and really, legally, that's not the case. There are European laws being passed around because of systems like Steam that pretty much say this is a shitty practice and the customer should be given the right to separate the software from the license. Valve then added more to their EULA saying you can't take them to court with a class-action lawsuit, pretty much making sure that you can't sue them for not abiding by European law should it pass.

Not draconian DRM.

It's notable, mostly, because there are so many people who use Steam. Tens of millions. It's not the worst - I will staunchly be a defender of Valve and Steam until they prove to me they don't deserve defending, which is not an event I anticipate in the slightest - but it is fairly bad when you factor in the customer ignorance. Steam is a system that hooks you in, almost by brute force, and chains you down to it in many ways. It's good business, in that respect, and I think Valve are clever bastards for doing it. It's just the way they sell this software isn't optimal, and the measure they've put in place basically ensure that you are essentially borrowing games from them for a fee. They have the killswitch to every product you have ever bought from them and their service - to many games you buy outside of their service, games that employ Steamworks - and, look, if that's not slightly worrying and Draconian a practice, I don't know what is. Even SecuROM put the power to revoke the license in the user's hands.

Wait, what? What draconian practices again? You just spent several paragraphs going on a tangent, talking about not DRM and suddenly use "draconian" once more?

Digital Right Management, this is what I want you to talk about, not who uses it, not hypothetical futures, not alternative universes or whatever. How Steam currently provides access to games, and how at the moment any wrong doing is punished severely and over the top. Because that's what draconian is when applied to DRM. What, for all we know, SecuROM could start shipping with a code that slips into the boot sector and zaps it clean, should it determine any wrong doings. And the mechanism to find that is severely flawed. However, you don't call that draconian, do you? Because it hasn't happened yet. There is a potential to happen but it's not how it is, hence the title is unneeded.

Don't go on a rant about stuff, talk about what I asked.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

It's a benevolent dictatorship. They have the ability to really screw people over but they're such nice guys that they often don't. I'm happy with Steam because I've never had a problem, but if Gabe Newell dies before cloning technology reaches his income bracket I'll have to reconsider my use of it.

 

[Benitune]

I think another point in its favour is that Valve has no shareholders. There won't be anyone questioning why customers are allowed to download games as many times as they want to, without even being, like, charged for it.

Of course, this is as long as Gabe Newell is alive. Hang on in there, Gabe!

Ah yes, Babe Newell...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/technology/valve-a-video-game-maker-with-few-rules.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all&

This is why I love Valve. It pretty much sums it all up. People complain about the 'DRM' or the fact that Valve retain the right to all your games, but as it's still a private company, then we're fine. I have complete faith in Mr Newell to do the right thing by gamers and consumers.

inb4 "Gabe fanboy", I've read a lot of these stories. He is a living legend.

And like it says in the article, "Mr. Newell said that there was a better chance that Valve would ?disintegrate,? its independent-minded workers scattering, than that it would ever be sold." So I don't see EA or Activision getting their grubby hands on our Steam games any time soon.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

Digital Right Management, this is what I want you to talk about, not who uses it, not hypothetical futures, not alternative universes or whatever. How Steam currently provides access to games, and how at the moment any wrong doing is punished severely and over the top. Because that's what draconian is when applied to DRM. What, for all we know, SecuROM could start shipping with a code that slips into the boot sector and zaps it clean, should it determine any wrong doings. And the mechanism to find that is severely flawed. However, you don't call that draconian, do you? Because it hasn't happened yet. There is a potential to happen but it's not how it is, hence the title is unneeded.

Don't go on a rant about stuff, talk about what I asked.

My point is that the power they have is currently Draconian. They have the power to shut off all their servers. They have the power to revoke all your games (example: people who have been found cheating in, for example, Counter-Strike: Source, can and do receive locks and bans on their entire Steam accounts. For cheating in ONE game. Valve has the right to do it, but they don't explicitly state anywhere under what circumstances). I'm saying, I trust Valve now, I trust what the company is doing, but the systems they've set up support Draconian measures. It's something I feel we should probably keep a check on, should Steam's popularity continue to grow.

You seem to think I'm trying to tear Steam down for it, and I'm not. I'm really not. I love Steam. But as DRM it is excessive, unfathomably bulky. I'll support it as a storefront but Steamworks as DRM is a tad bit unreasonable in places (why do I need friends built-in? I'm fine with friends but... I'm just using this to activate my single-player games...) They have created a set of Draconian locks and hooks and systems. They're not using them. Certainly. I trust Valve with the keys, so to speak. But the system itself IS, quote unquote "Draconian". Excessively severe.

Steam is too popular to not be criticized like this. They're market leaders and we've seen in examples like Origin that people who follow in their footsteps but aren't quite as... benevolent as Valve are... tend to implement a lot of really nasty stuff; rootkits and the sort. Valve are the ones I trust to implement this sort of thing well and I'd like them to be the ones to define the standards, as they have been doing. I don't think it's unreasonable to, at the least, keep the conversation open. As soon as we all cave and say, "yeah, all that stuff is fine," we set a precedent for worse stuff to come in.

 

[elvor0]

And the "Con's" are:
- Draconian DRM
- "You DON'T actually own your games"
- Online/offline gaming
- "unfair" market share

Your thoughts?

-Hawk

-Well the DRM isn't actually that draconian, not when compared to say...Ubisofts always online one. I mean you don't have to have Steam running for most of the games, Valve games you do, but other than that you can pretty much just run them from the root folder without steam.

Steam must be running for essentially all of the games. Clicking on an execution file will open steam if it is not open.

Hmm, I stand corrected. I swear I used to be able to do it with a lot more games. Although, I haven't got many of them installed, and it does so happen that quite a few of them have Steamworks on the game box, but a few do work on their own. Oh well, guess you can blame the companies for choosing to use total steamworks intergration.

Digital Right Management, this is what I want you to talk about, not who uses it, not hypothetical futures, not alternative universes or whatever. How Steam currently provides access to games, and how at the moment any wrong doing is punished severely and over the top. Because that's what draconian is when applied to DRM. What, for all we know, SecuROM could start shipping with a code that slips into the boot sector and zaps it clean, should it determine any wrong doings. And the mechanism to find that is severely flawed. However, you don't call that draconian, do you? Because it hasn't happened yet. There is a potential to happen but it's not how it is, hence the title is unneeded.

Don't go on a rant about stuff, talk about what I asked.

My point is that the power they have is currently Draconian. They have the power to shut off all their servers. They have the power to revoke all your games (example: people who have been found cheating in, for example, Counter-Strike: Source, can and do receive locks and bans on their entire Steam accounts. For cheating in ONE game. Valve has the right to do it, but they don't explicitly state anywhere under what circumstances). I'm saying, I trust Valve now, I trust what the company is doing, but the systems they've set up support Draconian measures. It's something I feel we should probably keep a check on, should Steam's popularity continue to grow.

-snip for space-

I'd say that was a fair argument, they have the /potential/ to do some really nasty shit, and screw over a lot of folks with the power they have, and were it any other company we'd all be running for the hill brandishing pitchforks and doom inducing signs.

We should be okay though for the foreseeable future, I trust Valve to do the right thing, and I think so long as we have Gabe Newell standing in between Steam and whoever it is they may answer to shareholder wise, we'll be fine. Steam may be DRM, but I'll be damned if he hasn't championed a program where even though it is, you really don't care because oh look a deal!

 

[TehCookie]

The only time I want to use offline mode is when my internet goes out, but since you have to be online to set it to offline mode it doesn't help me unless I can predict the future.

Yeah, I get you. But they seem to have fixed it. Somewhat. Scroll up and see what Vuliev said - it requires you to login only once, if you haven't restarted the computer. I just tried it, too - I shut down Steam, killed my connection, and launched it - it asked me if I wanted to start offline. And it worked. I'm pretty amazed. Although, it wouldn't help you if you just started the PC, I assume. But I tend to only set it to sleep, so I'm not too worried.

Also I'm one of those people who has issues with Bloodlines, except I have a lot more rage.

Can I help? Is it the automatic updates breaking the UP or something else?

That's my guess since it broke when it updated, and I'm not arsed enough to install the patch everytime I want to play it (so much for master race, at least my console games work). I tried stopping the updates, but as I said it still updates anyways.

 

[TehCookie]

The only time I want to use offline mode is when my internet goes out, but since you have to be online to set it to offline mode it doesn't help me unless I can predict the future. Also I'm one of those people who has issues with Bloodlines, except I have a lot more rage.

Yeah, I get you. But they seem to have fixed it. Somewhat. Scroll up and see what Vuliev said - it requires you to login only once, if you haven't restarted the computer. I just tried it, too - I shut down Steam, killed my connection, and launched it - it asked me if I wanted to start offline. And it worked. I'm pretty amazed. Although, it wouldn't help you if you just started the PC, I assume. But I tend to only set it to sleep, so I'm not too worried.

The common misconception about Steams offline mode is that you have to go online to set it to offline mode.

This is simply not true. It really isn't. Now I know what you're thinking, but hear me out:

The only time Steam requires you to go online is either because one or more of the licenses for the games you're attempting to play are not synced with the current client version, or your client version was in the midst of updating.

The easiest way to ensure that Steam will open in offline mode, every time, is to just be sure that you shut down Steam before you turn off your computer. Or, more to the point, make sure, if it's updating, that it finishes the downloads.

Now, that doesn't really help if you're hit with a sudden power-outage. Though, even then, Steam still has a chance to open in offline mode. (though not as likely)

Still, as long as you make sure your games are up-to-date with your current Steam client version, offline mode (and subsequent game launches) should work every time.

Is a perfect system? Dear God no. Not by any stretch of the imagination. However, it's honestly no where near as bad as some people seem to think.

(though it sure as hell used to be. and it could still use a lot of work.)

When my connection drops it's not kind enough to wait for everything to finish downloading. I've NEVER had offline mode work without setting it beforehand. I don't shut down my computer, but I don't know how to sync my games to make sure they'll work. If it's suppose to do it automatically it does a pretty bad job. Or is there an issue because I don't leave it running 24/7, I only boot it up to play games and close it when I'm done.

 

[DoPo]

That's my guess since it broke when it updated, and I'm not arsed enough to install the patch everytime I want to play it (so much for master race, at least my console games work). I tried stopping the updates, but as I said it still updates anyways.

Last time it broke was several months ago (I'm guessing sort of the beginning of the year - the first quarter or something), and the time before that was probably about a year ago or around there. And there was at least one time before even that, but it's been years now. Or something like that. They last two got fixed within a 1-2 weeks or so. Dunno about the previous instance(s?) but it should have been roughly the same.

As far as I'm aware, it should be working right now but I don't have the means to test it (my copy is still the CD version - I don't own it on Steam). Also, the update problem (with Bloodlines, at least) is quite rare - the last two times it occurred were actually considered really frequent, despite being about half a year apart. Well, those were the mass ones, at least, I am not sure if it can't just be happening on an individual basis, too. If it does...I dunno, contact support, I guess. Or try reinstalling Steam - I'm not sure if that would help.

My point is that the power they have is currently Draconian.

The DRM is rather Draconian.

The DRM is rather Draconian.

Go on...

Don't go on a rant about stuff, talk about what I asked.

So far so good...

They have the power to revoke all your games (example: people who have been found cheating in, for example, Counter-Strike: Source, can and do receive locks and bans on their entire Steam accounts. For cheating in ONE game. Valve has the right to do it, but they don't explicitly state anywhere under what circumstances).

And how often does that happen? As far as I'm aware, if you cheat on a VAC secured server, you get a ban, possibly a permanent one, for VAC secured servers only. You can still play CS, and you can still join other servers. As I said, that's what I know currently. Did many people lose their library for (say) having a wallhack? Oh, and yes, they do say "Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers." but interpreting that as "using a single hax will get your whole account banned!", while technically correct, is somewhat misleading.

But as DRM it is excessive, unfathomably bulky.

Finally, getting to the point!

Steamworks as DRM is a tad bit unreasonable in places

Steamworks is an API for developers which wraps their game into Steam. So they'll work exactly like Steam does - a check at launch.

why do I need friends built-in?

This is not DRM.

They have created a set of Draconian locks and hooks and systems. They're not using them. Certainly. I trust Valve with the keys, so to speak. But the system itself IS, quote unquote "Draconian". Excessively severe.

No, I'm asking which part of the DRM is draconian. Publisher/distributor X (not going to start with names) may start sending ninjas to your place right now and, let's assume it fits into the EULA (it doesn't exclusively say you won't get attacked by ninjas I bet!) but that not really part of the DRM itself. If you were required to input a product key, the ninjas wouldn't actually fit into the that function

 

[Joccaren]

Does it no longer try to scan my photos and documents and send data back to EA about them? Because Steam never did that.

That was patched out with one of the first updates, less than a month after release if memory serves. People just like to perpetuate that as a current issue because they don't like Origin, or haven't bothered to stay informed about it.

 

[TehCookie]

That's my guess since it broke when it updated, and I'm not arsed enough to install the patch everytime I want to play it (so much for master race, at least my console games work). I tried stopping the updates, but as I said it still updates anyways.

Last time it broke was several months ago (I'm guessing sort of the beginning of the year - the first quarter or something), and the time before that was probably about a year ago or around there. And there was at least one time before even that, but it's been years now. Or something like that. They last two got fixed within a 1-2 weeks or so. Dunno about the previous instance(s?) but it should have been roughly the same.

As far as I'm aware, it should be working right now but I don't have the means to test it (my copy is still the CD version - I don't own it on Steam). Also, the update problem (with Bloodlines, at least) is quite rare - the last two times it occurred were actually considered really frequent, despite being about half a year apart. Well, those were the mass ones, at least, I am not sure if it can't just be happening on an individual basis, too. If it does...I dunno, contact support, I guess. Or try reinstalling Steam - I'm not sure if that would help.

When you have it like that it makes me realize I just have terrible luck, because I bought it a year ago (during the halloween sale) and it broke. So then I gave up and played the Christmas releases and when I was done with those I went to try to play that again and it broke (which would be earlier this year).

If it was just a terrible coincidence you have given me hope! If I only have to fix it one or twice a year I can tolerate that, I just hated that it would break a day later everytime I tried it.

 

[DoPo]

If it was just a terrible coincidence you have given me hope! If I only have to fix it one or twice a year I can tolerate that, I just hated that it would break a day later everytime I tried it.

Well, the last two instences of the problem are the ones I've personally (sort of) seen, and I've been troubleshooting problems for a while. So far it hasn't been once or twice a year - those two were just incredibly close together. It's likely to be way less than that...well unless Steam derps again, that is.

 

[bafrali]

I'm fairly surprised that people hail Valve as some sort of gaming messiah when their only relevant contribution to gaming has been the creation of one of the most draconian DRM policies there is. It could reasonably be argued that if Valve never launched Steam we wouldn't be dealing with the current blatant violations of consumer rights by major publishers and such.

Who would be your example of a developer who truly contributed to the industry? I am geniunely curious.

OT:Off-line mode seems to work fine for me. For example i got my internet arbitrarily cut today but steam let me switch to off-line when i restarted it.

Other than that, what others said. It is convenient, light on DRM and cheap as hell. It is good for indie developers and indie fans like me. Being able to download games without relying on the pyhsical copies is pretty sweet too. I really don't see it as DRM either. It is just a convenient service

 

[Theminimanx]

-Well the DRM isn't actually that draconian, not when compared to say...Ubisofts always online one. I mean you don't have to have Steam running for most of the games, Valve games you do, but other than that you can pretty much just run them from the root folder without steam.

I did not know about that. Just tried it, and while I can boot Audiosurf just fine from the root folder, I can't with Just Cause 2. Is there a pattern for this, or do you have to find out on a game by game basis?

EDIT: Strange, although the Audiosurf launcher works just fine, the moment I click play, it tells me I need to connect to steam. Guess I was talking out of my ass then.

 

[elvor0]

-Well the DRM isn't actually that draconian, not when compared to say...Ubisofts always online one. I mean you don't have to have Steam running for most of the games, Valve games you do, but other than that you can pretty much just run them from the root folder without steam.

I did not know about that. Just tried it, and while I can boot Audiosurf just fine from the root folder, I can't with Just Cause 2. Is there a pattern for this, or do you have to find out on a game by game basis?

See I thought that was the case, but I think I may just been "lucky" it seems to be totally random having tested it earlier after being brought up on the issue, boxed copies with steamworks on the case certainly seem to need to, that's for sure. But Tropico 4, Fable 3 doesn't neither to Team Meat games. I haven't got many games installed at the moment, or most of them are Valve (or published games), so I can't really look for a pattern.

Heck it doesn't even seem consistent across machines, my friend can boot some that I can, and vice versa, even if we both bought them on steam.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

That was patched out with one of the first updates, less than a month after release if memory serves. People just like to perpetuate that as a current issue because they don't like Origin, or haven't bothered to stay informed about it.

We'll it certainly did nothing to engender my trust.

 

[bafrali]

Who would be your example as a developer who truly contributed to the industry? I am geniunely curious.

Sorry, I don't argue with fanboys.

I agree. You seem quite content with throwing around claims with no means of backing them up and label anyone who asked for clarification on your vague claims as fanboys.

A worthy agenda indeed.

 

[Gennadios]

Pros mostly stem from Steam being the current market leader but digital distribution itself still not breaking through to the market.

The sales and selection are the best of any DD platform and it's really nice to have all your games in one place.

In addition, the ease of downloading and updating games is a massive boon.

Cons:

The DRM isn't intrusive, but at times it utterly sucks. Steam decides to lock you out at random times unless you connect to the internet, and there's no way you can play games when it does.

I've had situations where I would be online 6 hours prior, move to a different location with no internet connection and be promptly got locked out of my games. It's random and annoying.

You will lose all your games for any apparent infraction or any action that seems as if you're fostering piracy. Granted, never happened to me and I don't know anyone it has happened to, but there was talk of a few bad/unplayable steam launches and people who even talked of getting cracked executables were banned, so it's still uncomfortable.

Bottom line:

It's great while there's a healthy amount of competition from the retail and DD sectors, but I really don't trust Valve enough on it's own. I try buying games from other sources once in a while just to keep it's competitors in business, even if my most important games are Steam.

 

[Radoh]

Who would be your example as a developer who truly contributed to the industry? I am geniunely curious.

Sorry, I don't argue with fanboys.

I agree. You seem quite content with throwing around claims with no means of backing them up and label anyone who asked for clarification on your vague claims as fanboys.

A worthy agenda indeed.

Don't concern yourself with Percy's personal brand of silliness, there's a reason why he's one report away from a ban after all.

On Topic: I like Steam because it allows a quick access to my entire game library without me fishing for game discs and helps me find old games that are nigh-impossible to find elsewhere.
Also because of Steam Workshop, Steam Greenlight, Steam Community stuff, and bringing me my own personal Renaissance of Gaming.