The terrible treatment of women in the latest Tomb Raider game

[Asuka Soryu]

Gender equality is the dream that will never be made real.

 

[The Madman]

At any rate, you're wearing some of the rosiest glasses I've ever seen. I'm a bit impressed, really.

Why thank you, I spare no expense on the optics. Although I should point out that I only mentioned the first Tomb Raider game, not the many, many sequels. Also I only remember Larson, I have no clue whatsoever who those others you mentioned are.

Spoiler: I actually own all the originals, though I only still have the box for 3. Triangle Box was awesome!

Besides if you're going to tell me with a straight face that Lara Croft's adventures to uncover Area 51 are somehow even remotely comparable to the new Tomb Raider in terms of violence, mayhaps it's I who should be complimenting your own spectacles.

Old Tomb Raider when at its best was silly and over-the-top world-spanning adventure. It was about platforming and clever environmental puzzles, fun level design, and exotic locations. The new Tomb Raider is mostly about watching Lara get hurt and then killing people in gruesome ways.

I'm also not saying the new game is bad, I'm just saying I miss the wacky adventures.

 

[lacktheknack]

At any rate, you're wearing some of the rosiest glasses I've ever seen. I'm a bit impressed, really.

Why thank you, I spare no expense on the optics. Although I should point out that I only mentioned the first Tomb Raider game, not the many, many sequels. Also I only remember Larson, I have no clue whatsoever who those others you mentioned are.

Spoiler: I actually own all the originals, though I only still have the box for 3. Triangle Box was awesome!

Besides if you're going to tell me with a straight face that Lara Croft's adventures to uncover Area 51 are somehow even remotely comparable to the new Tomb Raider in terms of violence, mayhaps it's I who should be complimenting your own spectacles.

Old Tomb Raider when at its best was silly and over-the-top world-spanning adventure. It was about platforming and clever environmental puzzles, fun level design, and exotic locations. The new Tomb Raider is mostly about watching Lara get hurt and then killing people in gruesome ways.

I'm also not saying the new game is bad, I'm just saying I miss the wacky adventures.

The point is that you were bemoaning that the "old Tomb Raider" wasn't about shooting people, but that's patently false.

It's true that the newest Tomb Raider is the most violent, but Legend and Angel of Darkness (and even IV) were much more close than you are implying them to be.

Also, "wacky"? Uh. The first Tomb Raider's depiction of Atlantis was so nasty and dark that I'm amazed I didn't get sick playing it as a kid (PUS EVERYWHERE). And while her adventures were definitely "ludicrous", I don't think they were nearly as silly or pleasant as you seem to remember them.

I do agree with you that the old games were better, but for reasons that aren't the ones you focused on. It's because, as you said in your second post, because they focused on puzzles and level design.

 

[The Madman]

The point is that you were bemoaning that the "old Tomb Raider" wasn't about shooting people, but that's patently false.

It's true that the newest Tomb Raider is the most violent, but Legend and Angel of Darkness (and even IV) were much more close than you are implying them to be.

Also, "wacky"? Uh. The first Tomb Raider's depiction of Atlantis was so nasty and dark that I'm amazed I didn't get sick playing it as a kid (PUS EVERYWHERE). And while her adventures were definitely "ludicrous", I don't think they were nearly as silly or pleasant as you seem to remember them.

I do agree with you that the old games were better, but for reasons that aren't the ones you focused on. It's because, as you said in your second post, because they focused on puzzles and level design.

Fair enough, but I think we can all definitely agree Angel of Darkness is by far the worst Tomb Raider game. If anyone, like myself for example, is waxing nostalgic about the series they're definitely not thinking about that game. In fact they're trying their damned hardest to forget it exists, thank you very much. Seriously, the trailers for that game were sooooo good, then the game came out and it was sooooo crappy and disappointing. Shame. Legend meanwhile was Crystal Dynamics first shot at the series and was kinda meh. Not terrible mind you, but not great.

I do really like Anniversary though. It's a crime that it's the worst selling of the Tomb Raider games considering it very well might be my favourite, corny dialogue and all.

Also considering this:

is what Atlantis looked like in Tomb Raider I think it's my turn to make accusations of rose tinted goggles when you mention it being dark and, um, pus-ey. I think I'd define it more as confusing. Seriously, what is that stuff even meant to be?

Regardless you were right about the kill count, I shouldn't have brought that up as an example. Lara Croft has always been a bit of a cold eyed killer, but at least back in ye olden days she wasn't so brutal about it and the whole thing was played off very wink-wink nudge-nudge style the same way Indiana Jones murders Nazi's. Now... well now I honestly found Tomb Raider hard to play since I'm really not into graphic violence, and that game has tons of graphic violence. Almost nothing but really since by and large the puzzles are gone, replaced with stealth segments and third person action.

Guessing what I'm trying to say is I'm a nostalgic idiot who doesn't like change is all. Tomb Raider is just too dark and gritty for my tastes now.

 

[lacktheknack]

Also considering this:

image snip

is what Atlantis looked like in Tomb Raider I think it's my turn to make accusations of rose tinted goggles when you mention it being dark and, um, pus-ey. I think I'd define it more as confusing. Seriously, what is that stuff even meant to be?

I had a REALLY bad infection as a kid, so I always assumed it was flesh walls and the white stuff was pus, because the texture reminded me of infection.

Which makes sense, considering what the monsters looked like.

Regardless you were right about the kill count, I shouldn't have brought that up as an example. Lara Croft has always been a bit of a cold eyed killer, but at least back in ye olden days she wasn't so brutal about it and the whole thing was played off very wink-wink nudge-nudge style the same way Indiana Jones murders Nazi's. Now... well now I honestly found Tomb Raider hard to play since I'm really not into graphic violence, and that game has tons of graphic violence. Almost nothing but really since by and large the puzzles are gone, replaced with stealth segments and third person action.

Guessing what I'm trying to say is I'm a nostalgic idiot who doesn't like change is all. Tomb Raider is just too dark and gritty for my tastes now.

Heh. Don't worry about it, I also found the new game really brutal. It just annoys me when people sometimes act like the old games were non-violent. We good?

 

[The Madman]

Heh. Don't worry about it, I also found the new game really brutal. It just annoys me when people sometimes act like the old games were non-violent. We good?

I never thought the old games were non-violent, just more fun is all... but now I'm just being pedantic and grumpy again, I'll stop. Of course we're good!

 

[sweetylnumb]

Okay, now that I've got your attention, I thought I should bring up a problem I've seen in the game industry. This is best seen in Tomb Raider. Lara Croft, a terrified young woman, struggles to survive on an island, in the process murdering hundreds and hundreds of men. And only men. Excluding the supernatural spirit of the island that is also in the process of killing men (the male helicopter pilots and countless flight and ship officers) the only characters that that are killed horrifically are men. If you reverse the gender, and a terrified man is forced to gun down hundreds of vicious, rape-y women on a remote island, it would not only be seen as a disgusting piece of fiction, but it would never see the light of day. Think about it. In a world of equality of opportunity (where women who want to be soldiers, engineers, lawyers and scientists) why is it that the only people Lara kills on the island men? The excuse the game gives is that all of the women are burned at the stake by the head nutter. But again, if you reverse this, an all-female island brutally burning all of the men would never, under any circumstances at all be made into a game. So why is the reverse acceptable? I know the typical responses would be something in accordance with "grow a thicker skin" but this response is never said in scenarios when women feel that they are being deliberately picked out. Why are all video game goons men, when women are pushing to be allowed greater and fairer representation in the media?

Im not sure where your getting the idea that women dont want to be lawyers. Isnt it a fairly equal playing field? and there are actually more female scientists than males so unless your living in the 1800's im not sure what your talking about there.

And its becuase males are traditionally expendable. Its just a negative side effect of a male dominanated society. Women are lower and dehumanised but valued more for thier reproductive abilitys while men are given all the power and personality, unfourtantly having to do all the risky life stuff. Its an ancient way of thinking and its shit.

Also the latest tomb raider game was far from progressive. The almost rape scene aside (gggrrr) the only imporvement is that her tits are only double D as opposed to double G, which is nice.

 

[briankoontz]

Gaming treats everyone terribly. The "good guys" get to murder thousands of humans, monsters, enemy soldiers, or whoever the latest worthy victim is, the "bad guys" get to violently die, the women get to be sexually exploited, the men get to spend eight hours a day at the gym and four at the hair stylist or they aren't allowed in the game, the dialogue is banal and sociopathic.

The gaming media is completely wrong about Lara Croft, frequently citing that she is a "strong" protagonist and a model for women. She's a horrific mass murderer and a terrible archaeologist who destroyed a precious (precious to real archaeologists) enormous archaeological site.

Based on the latest game, Lara's gifts are clearly of the body coordination type, so she may wish to choose a profession that better takes advantage of that. This will greatly please the next archaeological team who visits the island, gags at the rotting corpses, cries in misery at the massive destruction of ancient artifacts, and says "What the fuck happened here"? The answer: Lara Croft happened.

That Lara is so often cited as a "good" example of females in games shows just how far gaming and the people who think about gaming have to go.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Its just a negative side effect of a male dominanated society. Women are lower and dehumanised but valued more for thier reproductive abilitys while men are given all the power and personality, unfourtantly having to do all the risky life stuff. Its an ancient way of thinking and its shit.

Shit for who? Females, right? And what if I, as a male, don't want to be valued for my power and personality? What if I'm jealous of females who can reproduce and I can't? Shouldn't I be entitled to see reproducing males in games, just like we see powerful females? And less objectified males, only valuable as a tool of power?

 

[sweetylnumb]

Its just a negative side effect of a male dominanated society. Women are lower and dehumanised but valued more for thier reproductive abilitys while men are given all the power and personality, unfourtantly having to do all the risky life stuff. Its an ancient way of thinking and its shit.

Shit for who? Females, right? And what if I, as a male, don't want to be valued for my power and personality? What if I'm jealous of females who can reproduce and I can't? Shouldn't I be entitled to see reproducing males in games, just like we see powerful females? And less objectified males, only valuable as a tool of power?

Considering reproduction is a biological trait as opposed to a societal construct, not really no. But you can be a stay at home dad so hey at least you got something there. And isnt it better to be valued for your personal power than it is to be valued for you attractiveness and your reproductive organs? and not valued at all if you don't have much of the first one?

Also the "objectification" of men in video games is no the same issue, as explained very well by Jim sterling that one time. Its an issue though, sure.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Its just a negative side effect of a male dominanated society. Women are lower and dehumanised but valued more for thier reproductive abilitys while men are given all the power and personality, unfourtantly having to do all the risky life stuff. Its an ancient way of thinking and its shit.

Shit for who? Females, right? And what if I, as a male, don't want to be valued for my power and personality? What if I'm jealous of females who can reproduce and I can't? Shouldn't I be entitled to see reproducing males in games, just like we see powerful females? And less objectified males, only valuable as a tool of power?

Considering reproduction is a biological trait as opposed to a societal construct, not really no. But you can be a stay at home dad so hey at least you got something there. And isnt it better to be valued for your personal power than it is to be valued for you attractiveness and your reproductive organs? and not valued at all if you don't have much of the first one?

Also the "objectification" of men in video games is no the same issue, as explained very well by Jim sterling that one time. Its an issue though, sure.

Physical power isn't a biological trait? Not sure where you got that from. Males have more muscles, that's a fact.

As for what it's better to be valued for, I always thought it's silly for that to bother anyone... "What trait of mine is it best for someone else to derive an individual advantage...?" No answer is forthcoming.

 

[tzimize]

Okay, now that I've got your attention, I thought I should bring up a problem I've seen in the game industry. This is best seen in Tomb Raider. Lara Croft, a terrified young woman, struggles to survive on an island, in the process murdering hundreds and hundreds of men. And only men. Excluding the supernatural spirit of the island that is also in the process of killing men (the male helicopter pilots and countless flight and ship officers) the only characters that that are killed horrifically are men. If you reverse the gender, and a terrified man is forced to gun down hundreds of vicious, rape-y women on a remote island, it would not only be seen as a disgusting piece of fiction, but it would never see the light of day. Think about it. In a world of equality of opportunity (where women who want to be soldiers, engineers, lawyers and scientists) why is it that the only people Lara kills on the island men? The excuse the game gives is that all of the women are burned at the stake by the head nutter. But again, if you reverse this, an all-female island brutally burning all of the men would never, under any circumstances at all be made into a game. So why is the reverse acceptable? I know the typical responses would be something in accordance with "grow a thicker skin" but this response is never said in scenarios when women feel that they are being deliberately picked out. Why are all video game goons men, when women are pushing to be allowed greater and fairer representation in the media?

Paragraphs dude. Also, its probably been said but I'll say it anyway.

Resources. Are the developers trying to send a message? They hate men? No, dont be stupid. If they were to create female soldiers or what have you that would be more models to model and animate. I'm guessing it mostly comes down to that. They dont really need to make both men and women for us to fight, since we're just gonna kill them anyway.

Would it make for a more interesting game if they did? Most likely, but it isnt necessary. Even if a game doesnt portray reality 100% doesnt mean its got some hidden agenda. It usually comes down to whats most practical/cheap in the development process.

Edit: Also, your title is exploitative and annoying and you should feel bad.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Isn't the main underlying antagonist in the game the Sun Queen? I might be wrong about that, since I played it some time ago. Anyway, call me a chauvinistic pig and patriarchal oppressor, but I dislike killing women in videogames. It always makes me kinda sad...

 

[sweetylnumb]

Its just a negative side effect of a male dominanated society. Women are lower and dehumanised but valued more for thier reproductive abilitys while men are given all the power and personality, unfourtantly having to do all the risky life stuff. Its an ancient way of thinking and its shit.

Shit for who? Females, right? And what if I, as a male, don't want to be valued for my power and personality? What if I'm jealous of females who can reproduce and I can't? Shouldn't I be entitled to see reproducing males in games, just like we see powerful females? And less objectified males, only valuable as a tool of power?

Considering reproduction is a biological trait as opposed to a societal construct, not really no. But you can be a stay at home dad so hey at least you got something there. And isnt it better to be valued for your personal power than it is to be valued for you attractiveness and your reproductive organs? and not valued at all if you don't have much of the first one?

Also the "objectification" of men in video games is no the same issue, as explained very well by Jim sterling that one time. Its an issue though, sure.

Physical power isn't a biological trait? Not sure where you got that from. Males have more muscles, that's a fact.

As for what it's better to be valued for, I always thought it's silly for that to bother anyone... "What trait of mine is it best for someone else to derive an individual advantage...?" No answer is forthcoming.

Yeah, i know, i went to high school. But females can natrually be strong by building mustle. A male, no matter what surgery he undertakes, can never reproduce. So its a little different no.

Personally i would like to be valued as a person so for my personality/actions/whatever. Not so much something arbitrary like attractiveness or going to the gym every day. It sucks either way.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

1. People tell feminists to grow a thicker skin all the time. I do it.
2. It's more acceptable because men are physically stronger, so it's more understandable that all the women were killed by the other tribesmen, however understandable such a premise is in the first place.
3. Lara dies horrifically constantly. To the point where she dies enough to represent all females just by herself in a typical playthrough.

Yes, there's a bit of a double standard, but when it comes down to it, I'm alright with that in the same way I'm alright with most soldiers and warriors being male when games are clearly copying some semblance of human society, because there are reasons for that in real life, sensible at first, and now ingrained. Also it's part of the lore. Whether the lore was made for convenience or fear of backlash or the lore was a decision made deliberately and the tribe being all males was a calculated part of the story, I don't know, but I'm not going to infer which one it was either.

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

Wait.... Wasn't the new tomb raider game written by a woman?

Also weren't the henchman on the island all fishing boat and cargo boat crews that had been washed ashore to be brainwashedto work for the villain? There are very minimal women working in those kind of roles in the first place. Now imagine how a handful of girls would be received in that kind of environment. 100+ men to every girl, all possibly poorly educated and the fact that they spend a lot of time trying to kill Lara and threatening her with rape... Lack of morals too. What do you think would happen to women henchmen on the island? better to only have men there me thinks!

 

[Bestival]

This sorta reminds me of that Cracked After Hours video, where they brought up the following:
Imagine if the genders were reversed in Forrest Gump, and it was a somewhat mentally challenged girl that shows up at a guy's door and they have sex.

There's an insane amount of situations where if you do a black and white genderswap of the people involved it suddenly gets a lot more creepy and rape-y up in here.

So yeah, props to the games that let you kill a wide variation of people. Elder Scrolls, Fallout and I would like to point out that Saints Row also very firmly falls into this category. Funny really, seeing as there's not a whole lot in that series that you could describe as 'teaching good morals', at least it has equality of the sexes...

 

[WindKnight]

The terrible treatment of MEN in the latest Tomb Raider is more like it. Men are either the villains or sacrifice themselves for Lara killing a few bad guys that Lara can do like a walk in the park. Men are expendable, but we have to protect the pooooor woman Lara! Because we all know women are more of living breathing human beings than men.

...OK seriously, why are you turning this into an us vs them situation. Phasmal and I just said we wanted to see more equal opportunity goons. No one is out to get men.

Because a lot of people want it to be seen as an us vs them situation? As much as there are people who want this treated seriously and want equal opportunities to work both ways (one thing I love about the Mass Effect series is you have plenty of women as team mates, powerful villains and even cannon fodder), there's lots who want to see this as a fight where if women gain something, men lose something, and they don't want men to lose anything.