What are the chances this was posted a week after i was forced to read this poem in history class
The White Man's Burden
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Not what I heard from people who've actually BEEN there, but I'll agree that posing one's self as a cold, well-armed occupier is no good for winning over hearts and minds.Satki said:
Should've never gone in the first place.
... you get hungry?Mercanary57 said:
People should be proud of their OWN achievements. Feel free to congratulate a team for winning, but even if they hold your country's name it wasn't anything to do with you. You just so happen to live in the country that won.
I never agreed with the Iraq war. It looked bad from a mile away. Bush Jr. finishing what his dad started. The WMDs was the biggest lie ever given to the world, I'm shocked that everyone has shrugged it off. If anything our Armies made Iraq WORSE now that the country is in civil war.
Sorry, this point isn't really related to the topic. I thought I'd just point out that the world is full of evil on both sides. What matters really is how we build bridges with Islamic nations that we were lead to hate during the Bush Administration. World peace IS possible, however it is NOT possible for the whole world to be democratic. Countries have leaders. If citizens want a new government they can overthrow it themselves or ask for help. We should NEVER force democracy. That defeats the purpose of choice.
I never agreed with the Iraq war. It looked bad from a mile away. Bush Jr. finishing what his dad started. The WMDs was the biggest lie ever given to the world, I'm shocked that everyone has shrugged it off. If anything our Armies made Iraq WORSE now that the country is in civil war.
All nations have dark pasts like slavery. Its how they develop into greater ones, by learning from their mistakes. Pretty much every nation has enslaved another over the centuries. Its not just something that was done only to Africa. It is how empires grew in the past. Its just that the US/UK slave trade was the most recent one. Its a horrible act indeed, yet it is not something only our ancestors have done.Simiou said:
Sorry, this point isn't really related to the topic. I thought I'd just point out that the world is full of evil on both sides. What matters really is how we build bridges with Islamic nations that we were lead to hate during the Bush Administration. World peace IS possible, however it is NOT possible for the whole world to be democratic. Countries have leaders. If citizens want a new government they can overthrow it themselves or ask for help. We should NEVER force democracy. That defeats the purpose of choice.
People are what makes the country I do not give two fucks about this lump of rock im on its a beutiful lump of rock and im happy to be here but I could be anywhere with the people i love and be happy. I can form attachments to people because they are so much more than a lump of rock and not everyone does love there family it is an accident of birth, I dont cheer for sports teams either same reasoning. A country is not cities, possessions or its government its the people pure and simple.kawligia said:
I say, if you're going to glorify imperialism, you should go whole-hog and start acting like Raffles in the far east. British imperialism is the best kind. [/stupid]
It does seem at times that the UN is a construct to provide the smaller nations a forum to whine in. Guilt's just too trendy these days to ever give anyone who needs one a good old-fashioned STFU, unless you're Spain and the deservee is Hugo Chavez.
It does seem at times that the UN is a construct to provide the smaller nations a forum to whine in. Guilt's just too trendy these days to ever give anyone who needs one a good old-fashioned STFU, unless you're Spain and the deservee is Hugo Chavez.
Or just political Karma for expending the people's good will in government so far that they'd go for anything NOT Republican.Cheeze_Pavilion said:
If that's the scenario, then there's room for both racism AND sexism still, so I'll go with that one. When I say 'racism is dead' I mean that in the most couldn't-say-it-with-a-straight-face way.
Of course the fact that America is so hung up on racism in the first place, almost holding up Obama to say "look, were not racist really, we've got a black guy in the white house loooook" seems to show some self guilt, like their trying too hard to show their not. While most of the western worlds just got over the whole thing.Ignignoct said:
Also reasons for not being proud to be American include
-Being the only country to drop a nuclear warhead on a city
-Backing out of the Koyoto Agreement, the anti-ballistic missile treaty
- Committing torture against many people and breaking the Geneva convention
- Allowing George Bush to be elected Twice
- Very little separation between State and Religion
- Celebrity Culture
Though this is more a criticism of the government of American then actual Americans themselves, as all the Americans I've met have been quite nice, also some of my favourite TV shows are produced their like Desperate housewives.
No matter what any country in power does some one will be upset. So long as they express thier displesure with harsh words, I don't see a problem. It would be hipocritical for America to restrict another people's freedom of speech.
Ammerica could be far more imperial than we are right now. I'm looking at you Opium Wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_wars
Like wise there is no requirmement for America to help people outisde its borders.
Ultimatly the people in power will do as they please. We should at lease be greatful that these days dissenting oppinions are generaly ignored. Things have been and can always get worse.
Ammerica could be far more imperial than we are right now. I'm looking at you Opium Wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_wars
Like wise there is no requirmement for America to help people outisde its borders.
Ultimatly the people in power will do as they please. We should at lease be greatful that these days dissenting oppinions are generaly ignored. Things have been and can always get worse.
Dropped a nuclear warhead on TWO cities, thank you very much.george144 said:
I'm surprised at the accuracy of your last 4 bullets, however. It's like your spider-senses kicked in and focused on the truth or something. Bravo.
Now for the first two...
The trouble with telling young Americans to feel bad about stuff that happened before their lives or their fathers' lives is that it is irrelevant to them as a person. I'll include slavery in this. It WAS bad, those WERE terrible things. Kyoto too.
Honestly, though, I think that just having a black dude, because the WORLD is racist (America included) helps out with our image. It helps that he's articulate and charismatic too. I just wish we stopped giving failed businesses billions of dollars to shape up, and let the market self-correct, as painful as that may be.
In the U.K (well where I live anyhow)
People tend to judge the U.S on the actions of who they elected
E.g. George W Bush went to war with Iraq mostly for Oil and caused a lot of deaths and hardships on its people. (We also hated Tony Blair and the Labour Party for the same reasons) and so people disliked the U.S for its actions
However now that Obama is in
We all like the U.S and are pro U.S polices like the Afghanistan surge (well most of us are)
I do tend to shudder when Americans refer to the U.S as the greatest country on Earth
On the topic of patriotism the U.K has very little compared to the U.S. Hardly any Union flags/English flags around except when it?s the World Cup then they are everywhere. The only thing U.K citizens get work up over is when the E.U tries to dictate policy on some unimportant regulation or another
personally I wouldn?t say I was "proud" of being British in a lot of ways I like being a British citizen (free healthcare WOOT) but I wouldn?t say I was proud of it
Sorry I got little off topic there just American Patriotism fascinates me
Back to the point
In all honesty I think the world, well the western world is much better with the U.S helping out and doing its....thing?
That said I really do dislike some the more neo conservative agendas the U.S has as it a bit of an irresponsible use of power
People tend to judge the U.S on the actions of who they elected
E.g. George W Bush went to war with Iraq mostly for Oil and caused a lot of deaths and hardships on its people. (We also hated Tony Blair and the Labour Party for the same reasons) and so people disliked the U.S for its actions
However now that Obama is in
We all like the U.S and are pro U.S polices like the Afghanistan surge (well most of us are)
I do tend to shudder when Americans refer to the U.S as the greatest country on Earth
On the topic of patriotism the U.K has very little compared to the U.S. Hardly any Union flags/English flags around except when it?s the World Cup then they are everywhere. The only thing U.K citizens get work up over is when the E.U tries to dictate policy on some unimportant regulation or another
personally I wouldn?t say I was "proud" of being British in a lot of ways I like being a British citizen (free healthcare WOOT) but I wouldn?t say I was proud of it
Sorry I got little off topic there just American Patriotism fascinates me
Back to the point
In all honesty I think the world, well the western world is much better with the U.S helping out and doing its....thing?
That said I really do dislike some the more neo conservative agendas the U.S has as it a bit of an irresponsible use of power
i am surprised no one is scared of us we are th only country to have used nuclear wepons in war
I have to say that I can understand the general disdain held by the world at large for American culture. It spreads like a virus, infiltrating and obliterating other cultures, and is in many ways a largely vapid, insipid replacement for what was once unique or at least different. One good summation of why I feel this way can be found here: http://klausler.com/cargo.html
I'll copy/paste for those who aren't interested in clicking.
I wrote these principles after reflecting on the content of contemporary newspapers and broadcast media and why that content disquieted me. I saw that I was not disturbed so much by what was written or said as I was by what is not. The tacit assumptions underlying most popular content reflect a worldview that is orthogonal to reality in many ways. By reflecting this skewed weltanschauung, the media reinforces and propagates it.
I call this worldview the American Cargo Cult, after the real New Guinea cargo cults that arose after the second world war. There are four main points, each of which has several elaborating assumptions. I really do think that most Americans believe these things at a deep level, and that these misbeliefs constantly underlie bad arguments in public debate.
I. Ignorance is innocence
Complicated explanations are suspect
The world is simple, and there must be a simple explanation for everything.
Certainty is strength, doubt is weakness
Admitting alternatives is undermining one's own belief.
Changing one's mind means one has wasted the time spent holding the prior opinion.
Your opinion matters as much as anyone else's
When a person has studied a topic, he has no more real knowledge than you do, just a hidden agenda.
The herd should be followed
The contemplative lemming gets trampled
Popular beliefs must be true.
No bad idea can survive.
People are generally smart.
Even if a popular belief doesn't pan out, at least you'll be in the same boat as everyone else.
II. Causality is selectable
All interconnection is apparent
Otherwise, complicated explanations would be necessary.
The end supports the explanation of the means
A successful person's explanation of the means of his success is highly credible by the very fact of his success.
You can succeed by emulating the purported behavior of successful people
This is the key to the cargo cult. To enjoy the success of another, just mimic the rituals he claims to follow.
Your idol gets the blame if things don't work out, not you.
You have a right to your share
You get to define your share.
Your share is the least you will accept without crying injustice.
Celebrate getting more than your share.
III. It's not your fault
If it's good for you, it's good
Society is everyone else.
Good intentions suffice
You can always apologize.
There is no long term
Don't miss an opportunity.
Consequences are things that happen to others
Only you can hold yourself accountable. Don't let others make you do that.
If somebody starts the blame game, you can still win it.
There are evil people and institutions, and surely one of them is more responsible than you are.
You are not the problem
An ugly image means a bad mirror.
IV. Death is unnatural
You're special
Bad things shouldn't happen to you.
Pain is wrong
Life should not hurt.
It's a Whiffle World.
Tragedy is a synonym for calamity
Bad things are never consequences of one's own action or inaction.
There will be justice
Bad people get punished.
You, however, will be forgiven.
There, in a nutshell, is the way American culture is viewed by outsiders. Is there any wonder that they don't like what they see?
EDIT: Sorry about the formatting and the length of the post. I'm new, you see, and the forum controls are still a strange and mysterious magic to me.
I'll copy/paste for those who aren't interested in clicking.
I wrote these principles after reflecting on the content of contemporary newspapers and broadcast media and why that content disquieted me. I saw that I was not disturbed so much by what was written or said as I was by what is not. The tacit assumptions underlying most popular content reflect a worldview that is orthogonal to reality in many ways. By reflecting this skewed weltanschauung, the media reinforces and propagates it.
I call this worldview the American Cargo Cult, after the real New Guinea cargo cults that arose after the second world war. There are four main points, each of which has several elaborating assumptions. I really do think that most Americans believe these things at a deep level, and that these misbeliefs constantly underlie bad arguments in public debate.
I. Ignorance is innocence
Complicated explanations are suspect
The world is simple, and there must be a simple explanation for everything.
Certainty is strength, doubt is weakness
Admitting alternatives is undermining one's own belief.
Changing one's mind means one has wasted the time spent holding the prior opinion.
Your opinion matters as much as anyone else's
When a person has studied a topic, he has no more real knowledge than you do, just a hidden agenda.
The herd should be followed
The contemplative lemming gets trampled
Popular beliefs must be true.
No bad idea can survive.
People are generally smart.
Even if a popular belief doesn't pan out, at least you'll be in the same boat as everyone else.
II. Causality is selectable
All interconnection is apparent
Otherwise, complicated explanations would be necessary.
The end supports the explanation of the means
A successful person's explanation of the means of his success is highly credible by the very fact of his success.
You can succeed by emulating the purported behavior of successful people
This is the key to the cargo cult. To enjoy the success of another, just mimic the rituals he claims to follow.
Your idol gets the blame if things don't work out, not you.
You have a right to your share
You get to define your share.
Your share is the least you will accept without crying injustice.
Celebrate getting more than your share.
III. It's not your fault
If it's good for you, it's good
Society is everyone else.
Good intentions suffice
You can always apologize.
There is no long term
Don't miss an opportunity.
Consequences are things that happen to others
Only you can hold yourself accountable. Don't let others make you do that.
If somebody starts the blame game, you can still win it.
There are evil people and institutions, and surely one of them is more responsible than you are.
You are not the problem
An ugly image means a bad mirror.
IV. Death is unnatural
You're special
Bad things shouldn't happen to you.
Pain is wrong
Life should not hurt.
It's a Whiffle World.
Tragedy is a synonym for calamity
Bad things are never consequences of one's own action or inaction.
There will be justice
Bad people get punished.
You, however, will be forgiven.
There, in a nutshell, is the way American culture is viewed by outsiders. Is there any wonder that they don't like what they see?
EDIT: Sorry about the formatting and the length of the post. I'm new, you see, and the forum controls are still a strange and mysterious magic to me.
Hmmm... does electing an educated, articulate, charismatic biracial man into office really mean that racism is over? I mean, Benazir Bhutto was the first female prime minister of Pakistan and I don't hear people saying that sexism is dead over there.Ignignoct said:
If a white man like George Bush can get elected, then racism will not be dead until a person of color with just as much intelligence (or lack thereof) as Bush can get elected.
As long as there are still these arguments that Obama "isn't black enough" because he does not fit the traditional black stereotypes, racism is not dead. As long as he is said to "transcend race" (because no white president has ever received that description, implying that Obama's own race needs to be transcended because it obviously isn't good enough) racism is not dead.
Emma Goldman:
Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.
George Bernard Shaw:
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
George Jean Nathan:
Patriotism is a arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
H. L. Mencken:
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
Howard Thurman:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.
Pablo Casals:
The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?
Samuel Johnson:
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
Wendy Kaminer:
Patriotism does not oblige us to acquiesce in the destruction of liberty. Patriotism obliges us to question it, at least. (patriotism is a check, a balance of the government. does this mean we must love our government?)
Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
Bertrand Russell
You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
George Bernard Shaw
You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.
Malcolm X
Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.
George Bernard Shaw:
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
George Jean Nathan:
Patriotism is a arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
H. L. Mencken:
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
Howard Thurman:
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.
Pablo Casals:
The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?
Samuel Johnson:
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
Wendy Kaminer:
Patriotism does not oblige us to acquiesce in the destruction of liberty. Patriotism obliges us to question it, at least. (patriotism is a check, a balance of the government. does this mean we must love our government?)
Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
Bertrand Russell
You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
George Bernard Shaw
You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.
Malcolm X
And we know that Obama has faced, and will face those as well. I mean, he chose to be considered black, despite the fact that he is biracial. And obviously there are the arguments that he is "not black enough" and the hanging of an Obama effigy.Ignignoct said: