This whole Rape Controversy has gotten silly,

[LHZA]

You made a few good points and one in particular that I wanted to bring up myself. You can go on and have a happy fufilling life after being raped. I don't presume it's easy, but I know people who are adament, much like your girlfriend, that they won't let their abuse be the defining feature of their life.

I disagree with you on a number of other topics. One, you don't rape in self defense. A person in position to rape another had power over that person, had minimized the other persons threat to themselves, thereforem the act can in no way be deemed as self defense.

Also you have to realize the lasting effect rape has on a person. To murder a person, is to take away everything, their ability to feel happiness, and their ability to feel pain, but to the victim, they don't have to deal with any long term ramifications to being murdered. To a rape victim, they do. It's something they have to overcome, or as described to me by a friend, learn to live with, and though yes, you do find the light at the end of the tunnel, it still tends to be an obstacle.

 

[LHZA]

edit: double post

 

[funkzillabot]

Let me help you out. Read this....

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word

I'm sorry if you feel that someone else's pain has gotten too "silly" for you, but it's time to grow up. To put away childish things and learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. If you have never been a victim of Rape...be thankful for it. Because if you had, you wouldn't think it was "silly", and you certainly wouldn't have written something so damn stupid.

 

[Alien Mole]

Snip.

I'm not sure to which extent I agree with what you're saying, but I do appreciate the luxury of not having to be sure. What I will say is that, regardless of where I stand on it, I respect you for having said it. It's a brave and valuable thing to go against the grain that badly, and you make some damned fine and thought-provoking points.

*imaginary hattip*

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

Let me help you out. Read this....

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word

I'm sorry if you feel that someone else's pain has gotten too "silly" for you, but it's time to grow up. To put away childish things and learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. If you have never been a victim of Rape...be thankful for it. Because if you had, you wouldn't think it was "silly", and you certainly wouldn't have written something so damn stupid.

\

Guy didn't say rape was silly. Read what he actually said. Thank you.

 

[Suicidejim]

But then again, maybe it hasn't.

OT: Yeah, it has though.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

To the OP:

It should be a conversation we can have, as mature adults. However, if all of the discussion on the boards and across the Internet about this of late have proven anything it's that it isn't a conversation we can have, nor are enough members of the community capable of acting like mature adults. Now, part of that is because our community (and I use the word loosely here, it is my belief that we aren't really a community so much as we are a large number of people who share a hobby and that is not enough for a community to exist when we don't share many other important values, aspects, and the like) includes people who are not adults at all, but in fact young children, teens, and also because some of the adults who are in our community are either emotionally or socially deficient of the mature adult marker, for whatever reason. The other part of this seems to be the nature of the topic itself and its hazy conceptualization in societies that are in large part uncomfortable with the concept of rape and shy away from discussing it, which makes discussion clumsy for lack of practice alone.

The desire and the reality just don't mesh up on this point. We absolutely should be able to discuss, treat, and explore rape as a concept and an act both in games and in our discussion without having the type of problems that we have had during the recent attempts to do so. The reality is that we aren't though, because it would seem that we can't. Perhaps one day that will change, perhaps the way to make it change is to keep plugging away at trying to do it until we eventually get to that point - I don't know. Still, the result is a cluster-F at this point and it has a lot of people from all points of view fairly upset for one reason or another.

Does the clumsy handling of it here and elsewhere mean we shouldn't try at all? Maybe. Again, I won't say that I know, because I don't. I know people are getting hurt who wouldn't be otherwise, and that's something we should keep considering, because that's concrete and it matters. It shouldn't be the only consideration though in answering the question. I know I personally don't derive any enjoyment from either the conversations that have been had about it here, nor its presentation and appearance in games of late. That's a problem for me since I primarily engage in forums like this and the playing of video games to achieve enjoyment. Again, not the only issue to be considered, but certainly something to take into account.

I think the problem here, and elsewhere, is that a definitive answer is being sought that will be proclaimed right above all objections and that is an impossibility with matters far less volatile than rape. We can't achieve consensus on if characters should be voiced or not. We can't unanimously get behind either the support or removal of DRM. We can't agree on if alternative box art for male/female characters is a step forward or a scam. You really believe that we will achieve support or rejection of rape in games? Here or anywhere else, I am thinking we will not. What we will do is what we always end up doing - stir the pot into a froth until it spills over and everyone gets splashed, sick of the topic, upset at each other, disgusted with the "community" and then some new hot button issue (great or small) will come along and we will do the same damn thing with that too.

I appreciate your attempt to move the discussion forward, but I feel like we're all aware, on some level, of the futility of this whole conversation, and many of us have become jaded enough to believe that such attempts are at least half the time made for the trivial pursuit of a trophy to get views on a topic or most responses. Which is the epitome example of how sad this whole situation has become.

 

[LetalisK]

Let me help you out. Read this....

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word

I'm sorry if you feel that someone else's pain has gotten too "silly" for you, but it's time to grow up. To put away childish things and learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. If you have never been a victim of Rape...be thankful for it. Because if you had, you wouldn't think it was "silly", and you certainly wouldn't have written something so damn stupid.

How would you know? It's pretty obvious you didn't read beyond the title. Or, at least I hope this is the case. I'd be deeply perplexed to learn you think it's "damn stupid" that we should not be afraid to explore in video games the nature and consequences of rape in a mature manner instead of shying away from it because its a sensitive subject. Because that was his point and he sure wasn't calling rape silly.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Hypothetical: Person A rapes Person B, Person B rapes Person A back in revenge later.

Instead, Person A kills Person B's Dad/Mum or whatever, Person B, once again, does the same back.

Is the first unjustifiable while the second totally is? Are neither justifiable? What, if anything, is the difference between these two acts of horrible crime followed by equally horrible vengeance?

In my opinion about the controversy, portrayal of rape should never be taboo. That being said, the guy who commented about protecting Lara Croft made an idiotic statement. That says very little about the game or him as a person. He goofed, get over it.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I think the big issue is that we as a society tend to try brush things we find unpleasant "under the carpet" so to speak, and try to pretend they don't exist. So whenever someone tries to force us to face these things out come the torches and pitchforks. I have to admit, I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. The thing is this is the wrong approach, esp. when it comes to fiction. Sometimes story writers have to force us to face the the things we find unpleasant and/or distasteful in order to get their message across. After all how else can we adequately show that our "evil bad guys" are in fact evil bad guys if we can't show them doing evil things? Have them laugh manically and give gloating, self-congratulatory one-liners like Saturday morning cartoon villains or all the "bad guys" in Star Trek Online?
Granted, of course, it has to be done in such a way as to not glorify the thing in question for shock value. I do not approve of that in any way shape or form.

 

[LetalisK]

To the OP:
It should be a conversation we can have, as mature adults. However, if all of the discussion on the boards and across the Internet about this of late have proven anything...

...but it hasn't. As eloquently as you presented your point, I couldn't disagree with it more. In fact, your entire first paragraph is exactly why we should be having this conversation. Even if I accepted the premise that the "immature" are great in number relative to the "mature", which I don't, I reject the notion that the community is too immature to have this discussion because any evidence of immaturity toward the subject is also evidence that there is not enough awareness. And we do have different values and different perspectives and different levels of maturity. If we don't bring those separate values and perspectives together, how are we supposed to advance?

I'm not willing to let the "immature" silence the rest of us nor am I willing to wait for them to mature on their own because growth doesn't occur in a vacuum. If they're going to mature, it's going to be because of conversations like this, not despite them. And like you said, there is a haziness and an uncomfortable feeling to this subject. That is not going to go away on its own. It will always be like that unless there is a public discourse about it, wherein it will have the opportunity to be refined. Furthermore, we don't need to reach a consensus. People can and will disagree about everything. That doesn't mean we don't progress forward.

To remain silent is to remain stagnant.

 

[Jimesis]

I only really just got home from work, so while I've read all the replies I haven't had the time to write up the responses they all deserve. First:

- Thank you guys (and girls) for joining the discussion.

- Special thanks to Lilani and Mylinkay for all the thought you brought to the table.

- I appreciate everyone who took the time to read the whole post. I realize it was pretty long.

Second:

- It looks like a few people only read the title before replying and came in on the offensive. I'm going to send them messages when I can, apologizing to them in turn, and asking them to come back and read the original post.

- I realize that the above is probably my fault, I could have done better when I titled the thread. I blame fatigue.

***

I would like to reply to LHZA really quick. I didn't mean to suggest rape could be seen as self defense. If the writing came off that way it's a failure on my part. In that instance I was asking, if you can murder a person to punish them for something is there a difference if you punish them with rape instead? In either case they're your victim. There are many MANY games where you can kill enemies who are already defeated and/or could never hope to beat you anyway at that point.

Here's an interesting thought on the subject. Like I've said my gf survived her rape and has been living a really happy life for years now. That said, I have no doubt at all that if she met her attackers and could figure out how to kill them without landing herself in jail for the rest of her life she absolutely would. Hell, I absolutely would and technically these people I've never met have never wronged me.

Now as a poor alternative to their grizzly murders (which I get away with Scott free) we could settle for them being raped in return. Of course I don't think I could get into it myself, but I wouldn't feel the tiniest bit guilty about sending them to prison where they could be raped by burly men covered in racist tattoos. Which still kind of feels like their getting off easy, but one could hope the tattooed fellas visit them often over the years. And that's the essence of the passage you referred to, if you can justify murdering evil people can't you justify raping them? Or are me and my girl alone on this one?

Was that really quick? This doesn't actually look really quick. Anyway I'll do my best to get a few more replies in before the end of my night.

 

[Valis88]

We shouldn't be afraid to portray rape, yes, but I feel we should also avoid misrepresenting it and trivializing it. If rape is going to be portrayed in a "real" way, then the writers should make the effort to do their research on rape victims and how they cope. Don't just assume it's going to be a super intense "growing up" moment that's easily interchangeable with some other tragedy, like a dog getting killed or losing a loved one.

This...so much this.

I hope that we never reach a point in games, or media, where we actually trivialize rape.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

Gotten silly?

It started silly. A producer of "Tomb Raider" said "Laura gets raped". Turns out it's just the scene from the trailer where some guy man-handles her with ill-intent. However, the internet had already exploded.

As for the topic of rape itself; it isn't a cut-and-dry cookie-cutter experience for anyone; and people who assume it is always one specific way are ignorant. Unfortunately, there's a lot of ignorance here on the jolly 'ol intertubes.

 

[skywolfblue]

And this Lara Croft controversy? Evil. Let's be honest. We know what this is about. It is the deliberate courting of controversy to sell boxes.

No matter if you're a man or a woman, a rape victim or not, any sensible person should find this stunt despicable.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

This isn't some well-handled tale that brings to light the problems of rape, it's just controversy for the sake of making a few bucks.

 

[The Elf Herself]

Interesting points for thought and discussion have been brought up here.

Let me start off by saying I'm a rape victim/survivor/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. My situation is something that a lot of people would say ISN'T rape, because I was dating the guy who did it. (Yes, I've heard that. Apparently it's better to have a traumatic occurrence become habitual rather than be a one-time-only thing. Go figure.) I have exhibited symptoms of PTSD, among other things, for a while now. I am currently seeking help for it. That's not what I'm here to talk about, however, and I'm only mentioning it to give a little context.

As much as I will never be able to forgive all the things my ex has done, I would never actively seek to harm him in any way. In no way do his actions justify my taking revenge. This is why we have a justice system that is supposed to be cold and impartial. I was too afraid to make use of that while I could have, and even IF he had gone to prison, I would NEVER have joked about him being raped there and would NEVER have wished for it to happen to him. I wouldn't want to kill him, either, or have anyone else kill him for me. In my highly subjective opinion, in real life, I can't justify revenge rape or revenge killing. He may "deserve" it, according to others, but all I hope for is that he continues to leave me alone and doesn't harm anyone else.

As far as video games go, I'm not even offended by the Tomb Raider trailer (other than the blatant "trying-to-cause-controversy-to-boost-sales" feeling I got from it). Hell, my favorite game has a bit about rape. You don't see anything, but it's heavily implied that a minor side character was raped. This character doesn't want to discuss it, so you don't. She says she doesn't want to be seen as helpless and delicate. That's it.

I think that would be the best place to start if we're trying to discuss rape in a mature way in games. Make it something that happens to anyone but the protagonist so we can gauge THEIR reactions. Then, after people are pretty sure how to handle this in a mature way, we can talk about how to make rape happen to a protagonist. I know there are games with that sort of thing in it, but I still think we're putting the cart before the horse just a bit as far as games are concerned. What's the rush? This will still be an issue for a while, I'm sure.

Sorry for the novel. I hope I made some kind of sense...

 

[DanDeFool]

I think the bottom line here is that you can't treat this sort of topic with a broad brush. We all have difficult, painful, and traumatic things happen in our lives, and some of us cope better than others. I really respect OP's girl for getting past her rape, but I can't fault anonymous for not being able to do the same.

Some people commit murder-suicides when their spouse cheats on them. Some frontline soldiers make careers out of military service. How people respond to hard times varies widely, and difficulties that crush one person may help another grow stronger.

Ultimately, what I think we all agree on is that rape in narrative has to be handled carefully, taken seriously, and not used to evoke some cheap effect. Even the whole "flighty heroine ALMOST gets raped, but is saved at the last second by the hero" is a bit disrespectful of the subject matter, and the thing they're doing with the Tomb Raider storyline is, at best, missing the point.

If you want an example of rape in narrative handled well, check out the anime Now and Then, Here and There. Or don't, because that series is depressing. In any case let's hope the Tomb Raider devs get their act together and fix this crap before it's too late.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I think the scene with those battle nuns was horrible...I too have beaten sexy battle nuns yea knowing that what I was doing would keep sexy women dressed as nuns in there place. oh god....

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

I actually did read that article before, and I'm aware that Rape can and has affected people that way, but from personal experience of knowing more than one person for years who has been raped I know that not everyone has that reaction to the trauma. One of my issues, and my gf's, is that most people seem to think that either everyone who was raped goes through their lives like the author of that article or that rape isn't serious at all.

There are many shades of gray in this rainbow, same as with most issues. There are people who are crushed by the trauma of their experience and people who move on without much issue. If it seemed like I was belittling the former group I apologize, but I think it's important to note that the story told by the author of "the R word" isn't a universal one.

I understand it's not a universal story, and that's why I feel like we need to be very careful about how it's employed in narrative. If you go the route of it not being a big deal, then you belittle those who had extremely violent and traumatic experiences. But if you make it too traumatic, then it has the possibility of being too hammy and totally undermining every other aspect of the victim.

I think the main issue with rape being in games that doesn't so much affect it being in films and literature is because in films and literature it is always an isolated character. You are constantly aware that the person going though that is not you, and has their own thoughts and feelings on the situation. With games, you are often supposed to be living vicariously through the character. Feeling what they feel, going through their toils with them. Rape is such a personal thing that everybody reacts differently to that any attempt to accurately put the player in the character's exact emotional state will always fall flat for a lot of people. But, if it is made perfectly clear that the character you are dealing with is a unique individual with their own emotions separate from the player, then I think that could be solved. And that is why I think there is still a possibility of the attempted rape in the new Tomb Raider game could work. Just as long as they don't make it too hammy and keep it focused on what Lara is feeling instead of the player. Don't make it about "this is how rape is," make it about "this is how rape is to Lara."

See, that's the thing, it was always about how they did the narrative wrong, but then it became rape awareness month June on The Escapist. Really, Not to sound insensitive, but this entire thing went WAY TO FAR than what was warranted for the original problem. In response to the insensitive dicks, it maybe warranted, but one comment won't change these people's opinions, heck, anything on an internet forum can dent these peoples' failures in understanding others. I'm just saying I think this is gone too far, and I'm damn sick of it. I understand it can be a big problem, but I just don't have the energy to care too much after how long this wave of R has been going on....

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

The whole discussion about rape and gaming has got out of hand. I look at my Escapist news feed and there are three whole peices in a single day about rape. Offical peices. Rape rape rape rape rape everywhere i look its another rape discussion. Its getting a little creepy.

Its why I have spent the majority of my week on Rock Paper Shotgun

Yes, rape is trending in gaming news. The reason why? Games have only recently (within the in less than a decade) become advanced enough to regularly include the subject in mainstream titles. Murder in games is almost as old as gaming itself, and it is sanitised, instantanious, and often depicted without a lot of suffering. Rape, however, requires a prolongued portrayal of agony and fear - and that in turn requires the story to take a mature, receptive approach to the issue. But games haven't been doing that. Hence the discussions.

Shit, read gamers, not games. Disregard post, I got really annoyed for no reason.