To all the Europeans and Aussie's on this forum...

[Grand_Poohbah]

No. If someone breaks into your house the element of surprise and a tazer are more effective than a gun.

Because a tazer eliminates them immediately and has more than one shot right?

 

[Goatlemon]

First of all why are a bunch of europeans with almost no firearms experience telling me, someone in an entirely different continent what what I should be doing like they're my fucking mom or something.

I'm sorry, what? You're having a cry because some people on an forum are giving answers to a question?

If we want to talk about a country getting involved in another country's affairs let's talk about the USA involvement in the 1973 Chilean coup. Quoted from Wikipedia:

U.S. Role in the 1973 military coup d?état

The U.S. Government?s generosity to the elected Socialist President Salvador Allende government is substantiated in the documents declassified during the Clinton administration; involving the CIA, show that covert operatives were inserted in Chile, in order to prevent a Marxist government from arising and subsequent propagandist operations which were designed to push Chilean president Eduardo Frei to support "a military coup which would prevent Allende from taking office on 3 November."

U.S. President R.M. Nixon ordered the CIA to depose President Allende in 1970 ? immediately after assuming office ? with Project FUBELT; direct American involvement in the coup d?état is substantiated in The Trial of Henry Kissinger (2001), by Christopher Hitchens; (U.S. efforts to prevent Allende from assuming office in 1970 are discussed in the entry ?1970 Chilean presidential election?.) The U.S. intervention in the internal affairs of Chile was a foreign policy meant to worsen the economic crisis that President Allende faced ? in order to propitiate a right-wing coup d?état. This is further corroborated by a document sent on September 15, 1970 by then President Richard Nixon, in which he orders CIA director Richard Helms to "Make the economy scream [in Chile to] prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilea...in_the_1973_military_coup_d.E2.80.99.C3.A9tat

Or how about:

With active support from the CIA Pinochet implemented a series of military operations in which (according to the 1993 Rettig Report) over 3,200 people were killed, while (according to the 2004 Valech Report) at least 80,000 were incarcerated without trials and 30,000 subjected to torture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet#Abstract

Let's see, which form of meddling in another country's affairs is worse? Some people giving honest opinions on an Internet forum and the inevitable thread drift, or the support of a military dictator who would take the lives of 3,000 people, imprison 80,000 and torture 30,000 and rob the Chilean people of a democratic government for 17 years?

I know it's not easy to see your country being insulted, but let's keep things in perspective.

 

[Scolar Visari]

You are right, I did get a little pissy there thanks for bringing me back down. Now looking back on this thread I see your reason for wanting firearms banned is that civilians have no real reason to have them correct? What makes you think that hunting, sport and defense aren't legitimate reasons to own a firearm? If civilians can't own firearms then who should have them all, the government?

 

[mosinmatt]

Dear Odin! This thread is full of fail.
Nothing but self righteous Aussies and Brits claiming they are superior. Too bad they have much much more violent crime than America.
After each of those countries banned legal ownership of guns, the crime rate SKY ROCKETED.

You people really think 1337 martial arts, or a (one shot) tazer will defend your home? Or a baseball bat? Too bad you will get sued for that.
Seriously, if you ban guns, only law abiding citizens will have guns. This is PROVED by looking at Australia, UK, Chicago, and DC.

 

[mosinmatt]

Said it before, I'll say it again.
Gun ownership should come with responsibility, in all cases, no exceptions.
If you own a gun, store it in a cabinet, none of this guns lying around the house in wait, that's a recipe for disaster. Ammunition should not be kept in or alongside firearms. Remove the temptation for people to commit gun related crimes on impulse, and makes gun related accidents a lot less likely.
Really, it's not hard. People too stupid to store guns shouldn't be allowed to have them. simple

Or...not. None of mine are in a cabinet. Having your defense locked away will only get you killed.
Who will enforce this? Going to have armed police go to everyones house?
SEIG HEIL, then boyo.

dont tell my hillbilly relatives, but i think that gun ownership is massively overrated. i mean what are you ever going to use them for? i guess hunting but im totally against that, cuz its as pointless as having a gun. what are they for anyway? are you compensating for something? is it cuz theyre fun? whats so fun about going to a target range and shooting at a cardboard target? does it make you feel manly that you killed an inanimate object? the only thing i can think of that would be actually fun is to give an infinite number of hillbillies an infinite number of shotguns and ammo, an infinite number of pickup trucks, and an infinite number of stop signs, and see how long it takes them to write shakespeare in braille.

Never have i seen more ignorance. Hunting IS necessary. It prevents over population, and feeds people. Everything else in there was nothing but racism and discrimination.

 

[Goatlemon]

You are right, I did get a little pissy there thanks for bringing me back down.

It's cool, like I said; I know how you feel.

Now looking back on this thread I see your reason for wanting firearms banned is that civilians have no real reason to have them correct?

Essentially, yes. I don't want guns banned by the way, they are banned where I'm from; Australia. I also don't want guns banned in the USA because it's none of my business. Whether or not you ban guns in the USA is none of my concern.

What makes you think that hunting, sport and defense aren't legitimate reasons to own a firearm?

I don't like hunting for sport in general, regardless of the weapon. I just don't see a need to kill another creature as sport.

Hunting for food is a different matter, and in that case I will concede that a gun would be the best method for that as it reduces the suffering of the animal before it dies, compared to say a bow and arrow. I think. I don't have evidence to back that up. That said, in the modern world how many people need to hunt for food?

I see nothing against using a gun for sport either, but I believe that if you buy a gun for sport it should only be used for sport, and should therefore be kept at the gun range in a very heavy duty safe to reduce the chance of an otherwise sane person snapping and shooting people.

As for defence, no I don't believe owning a gun for defence is a valid reason. Let's look at a responsible person who owns a gun for self defence. If he stores it properly, in a safe or locked box with a trigger lock and unloaded, by the time he opens the box, takes off the lock and loads the gun the intruder has already raped his cat and stuffed his wife in the microwave. (Intruders are weird these days.)

So let's say you leave the gun in a more ready position to deal with criminals faster. If it's more available to you it's potentially more available to your family members, meaning that your little kid and his friend Timmy find the gun a go "bang bang BOOM!" Woops, little Timmy doesn't have a face anymore.

Then there is the chance that when the adrenaline is pumping, the light is low and the victim is scarred that a relative who makes the wrong move could accidentally be shot. Proper training is one thing, but nothing could really prepare a person for all the variables of using a gun on a criminal under stress.

As another person mentioned; guns raise the stakes of an encounter, and there are alternatives such as tasers and pepper spray. Sure you can still hit a family member with non-lethal alternatives, but at least there is much less chance of someone dying as a result.

If civilians can't own firearms then who should have them all, the government?

Yes. I've already mentioned that a civilian population, no matter how well armed, will not stand a chance against a well trained, well equipped modern military. Do you really think a totalitarian evil government will send in ground troops only? Or do you think they'll just send in some Apaches with night vision and chain guns and hell fire missiles before using their hold over the media to brand the revolutionaries as terrorists to the general public?

If you don't trust your government it's far better to deal with them through political means long before the need for violence arises.

Thanks for a good post and some good questions by the way.

 

[falcontwin]

Dear Odin! This thread is full of fail.
Nothing but self righteous Aussies and Brits claiming they are superior. Too bad they have much much more violent crime than America.
After each of those countries banned legal ownership of guns, the crime rate SKY ROCKETED.

You people really think 1337 martial arts, or a (one shot) tazer will defend your home? Or a baseball bat? Too bad you will get sued for that.
Seriously, if you ban guns, only law abiding citizens will have guns. This is PROVED by looking at Australia, UK, Chicago, and DC.

Can you give me the source/statistics that told you that

A. Australia banned gun ownership (we still have guns including handguns just not semi automatic rifles)

B The crime rate SKYROCKETED we still have a miniscule amount of violent crime here compared to the U.S.

If America is so great why do you feel that you need a gun to live there safely?. All of us people in the rest of the world get by just fine without them.

FACT:In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:


FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.

-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

from here http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

 

[mosinmatt]

You are right, I did get a little pissy there thanks for bringing me back down.

As another person mentioned; guns raise the stakes of an encounter, and there are alternatives such as tasers and pepper spray. Sure you can still hit a family member with non-lethal alternatives, but at least there is much less chance of someone dying as a result.

If civilians can't own firearms then who should have them all, the government?

Yes. I've already mentioned that a civilian population, no matter how well armed, will not stand a chance against a well trained, well equipped modern military. Do you really think a totalitarian evil government will send in ground troops only? Or do you think they'll just send in some Apaches with night vision and chain guns and hell fire missiles before using their hold over the media to brand the revolutionaries as terrorists to the general public?

If you don't trust your government it's far better to deal with them through political means long before the need for violence arises.

Thanks for a good post and some good questions by the way.

Firstly Tazers and pepper spray are NEVER guaranteed, NEVER. Seconly, SEIG HEIL to you too. Give all the guns to the government. That worked out great for the Soviet Union, and Germany. Want to Oppress your people or others? Take away their ability to defend themsevles. Brilliant. Now go shuffle off and OBEY
OBEY
OBEY
OBEY

 

[mosinmatt]

Dear Odin! This thread is full of fail.
Nothing but self righteous Aussies and Brits claiming they are superior. Too bad they have much much more violent crime than America.
After each of those countries banned legal ownership of guns, the crime rate SKY ROCKETED.

You people really think 1337 martial arts, or a (one shot) tazer will defend your home? Or a baseball bat? Too bad you will get sued for that.
Seriously, if you ban guns, only law abiding citizens will have guns. This is PROVED by looking at Australia, UK, Chicago, and DC.

Can you give me the source/statistics that told you that

A. Australia banned gun ownership (we still have guns including handguns just not semi automatic rifles)

B The crime rate SKYROCKETED we still have a miniscule amount of violent crime here compared to the U.S.

If America is so great why do you feel that you need a gun to live there safely?. All of us people in the rest of the world get by just fine without them.

FACT:In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:


FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.

-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

from here http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

Those stats are faked in inflated. Brady Campaign BS is what it is.
Australian and UK (and most of europes) Violent crime rate FAR EXCEEDED Americas.

Then you go on the whole "Need a gun to feel safe" BS. When did I say that? There is no reason for me to NOT own any gun. Go back to bed and OBEY. boyo

 

[Goatlemon]

Dear Odin! This thread is full of fail.
Nothing but self righteous Aussies and Brits claiming they are superior. Too bad they have much much more violent crime than America.
After each of those countries banned legal ownership of guns, the crime rate SKY ROCKETED.

You people really think 1337 martial arts, or a (one shot) tazer will defend your home? Or a baseball bat? Too bad you will get sued for that.
Seriously, if you ban guns, only law abiding citizens will have guns. This is PROVED by looking at Australia, UK, Chicago, and DC.

Oh my God it's Charlton Heston! Oh, wait he died didn't he.

Why don't you give us an example of this "much more violent crime in Australia"? If what you say is true it can't be too hard. Show us a few Australian school shootings or a sniper terrorising people here. If you're going to make a claim then back it up!

Second, no the crime rate didn't sky rocket after we banned guns. Read these links, they're not published by the NRA but I'm sure you'll get by.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp
http://www.guncontrol.org.au/index.php?article=32
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

I'm so tired of disproving this crap about crime rates rising when guns were banned on every forum I'm on. I should just put the links in my signature.

 

[falcontwin]

Mosinmat the fact that you sound like a scared little child makes me a little scared that you have a gun. All you can come up with are insults and made up statistics. We have very little violent crime here in australia . Yes it does happen but when you take guns out of the mix few people die from it. You aren't going to have a reasoned discussion with me though are you? your just going to put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala imnotlistening" Why do you need a gun? if you feel safe in your own home?

Heres another one of those "made up" FACTS for all you self defence fans

A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used to commit a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than to be used in self-defense.

-A Kellerman, et al. Journal of Trauma, August 1998; Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu.Rev Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40.)

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

Definitely not. I think my Katana should suffice fine for home protection.

And anyway why should you want a gun other than to protect yourself in your own home? And if that is the case then you have no excuse to not get a rather powerful BB gun instead in my opinion, none at all.

And I agree with the OP, Switzerland does it very well.

And also I live in Britain. Knife and gun crime are high and I really don't think a gun in the home will help.

 

[mosinmatt]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims Total Crime. Look whos at the top
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita rape. Look which countries are higher
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita break ins. Look who is at the top again!
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita robberies. Look at all those above the US. OH! including the UK!

Definitely not. I think my Katana should suffice fine for home protection.

And anyway why should you want a gun other than to protect yourself in your own home? And if that is the case then you have no excuse to not get a rather powerful BB gun instead in my opinion, none at all.

And I agree with the OP, Switzerland does it very well.

You really think your little katana will defend you? Why should I not be able to have a firearm, while you are waving around 3 feet of sharp steel?

EDIT: Personal Firearms also prevent over 2 million crimes a year. See if your over inflated brady Campaign BS can top that.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims Total Crime. Look whos at the top
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita rape. Look which countries are higher
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita break ins. Look who is at the top again!
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita robberies. Look at all those above the US. OH! including the UK!

Definitely not. I think my Katana should suffice fine for home protection.

And anyway why should you want a gun other than to protect yourself in your own home? And if that is the case then you have no excuse to not get a rather powerful BB gun instead in my opinion, none at all.

And I agree with the OP, Switzerland does it very well.

You really think your little katana will defend you? Why should I not be able to have a firearm, while you are waving around 3 feet of sharp steel?

That was to be taken with a grain of salt, and don't ignore the rest of my post. I do not think everyone should be able to own a weapon like mine, I think the rest of my post is the way to go.

The difference between what I have and what you have is that what you have is generally legalised, and does nothing other than kill people.

Mine however, is not sharp, I never said it was. If I stab with it I am sure I could do some amount of damage, but I would have to put some effort in to kill, and if I wanted to kill I would go for a kitchen knife, which most certainly could kill.

 

[mosinmatt]

The difference between what I have and what you have is that what you have is generally legalised, and does nothing other than kill people.

Mine however, is not sharp, I never said it was. If I stab with it I am sure I could do some amount of damage, but I would have to put some effort in to kill, and if I wanted to kill I would go for a kitchen knife, which most certainly could kill.

BIN THAT KNIFE!
Turn in your knife before some one turns it on you!
You think a sword does more than just kill people? What do you think swords were made for? KILLING PEOPLE! Same thing, different implementation.
Didnt they illegalize weeaboo swords there?

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims Total Crime. Look whos at the top
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita rape. Look which countries are higher
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita break ins. Look who is at the top again!
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita robberies. Look at all those above the US. OH! including the UK!

Definitely not. I think my Katana should suffice fine for home protection.

And anyway why should you want a gun other than to protect yourself in your own home? And if that is the case then you have no excuse to not get a rather powerful BB gun instead in my opinion, none at all.

And I agree with the OP, Switzerland does it very well.

You really think your little katana will defend you? Why should I not be able to have a firearm, while you are waving around 3 feet of sharp steel?

EDIT: Personal Firearms also prevent over 2 million crimes a year. See if your over inflated brady Campaign BS can top that.

So I wonder how many crimes they are used in per year? I think that eclipses the amount of crimes it has prevented.

 

[Goatlemon]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims Total Crime. Look whos at the top
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita rape. Look which countries are higher
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita break ins. Look who is at the top again!
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita robberies. Look at all those above the US. OH! including the UK!

Yeah I can do that too, watch.

Murders per Capita: [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita] #24 United States, #43 Australia, #46 United Kingdom.

Assaults per Capita: [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita] #6 United States, #8 United Kingdom, #10 Australia.

Murders with a firearm: [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita] #8 United States, #27 Australia, #32 United Kingdom.

And the big one:

Total Crimes: [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes]

#1 United States: 11,877,218
#2 United Kingdom: 6,523,706
Australia: Not even on the list.

 

[hymir101]

I and all my Brothers have shot at pieces of paper when we went up to our grandfathers(his neighbour trains all the police how to use guns in QLD, and his job requires him to go around and shoot crap(feral animals or something) from a helicopter.
He kinda broke the rules at the time as well(let like 2 people who are to young to use Firearm), was good, but I still think that guns shouldn't be allowed to be received very easily, there's plenty of better ways to defend yourself, a gun is really useful for someone who doesn't want to kill someone, just grab a bat and knock them out.

 

[mosinmatt]

Every one in this thread needs to realize that 99.9 percent of statistics are made up, like that one <, all of the articles that have been brought up in this thread are either written by Left wing extremists or Right wing extremists.

The only thing outlawing guns in the United States will bring is violence, the 2nd amendment is heavily rooted in to this country whether people like it or not, and those that like it aren't gonna willingly hand over their guns for fear of what might happen if statistics are true, where as the people that don't like it will just complain and moan about how their statistics are true. If the people that don't like it try to take the guns a lot of people will hold out against that and if some one tries to take their guns it will spark something no one wants.

People need to realize that in the US at least the only way that they will lower the number of gun related accidents in the country is to inform people about guns, not try to hide them from them. Gun crimes in the US, regardless of whether it happend in Australia will go up, gang members and people who acquired their firearms illegally will not turn them over and they will continue to use them, only now they'd be more willing to hit random people because they'd know there are no guns in the house. One thing those statistics don't tell you is whether the gun was used in self defense in the crime or not, the media and anti gun people don't care, anytime a gun is used they go off on their crusade against guns which promps the pro-gun people to launch their own crusade.

One thing the limeys or Skippys dont understand is that America has a very large population, extremely diverse (heck, we have illegals POURING IN). The "gangsta" culture is also previlent here. This encourages people to commit crimes, be violent etc etc.
Our diverse culture and heavy mixing of many people is what leads to crime. But the gangster culture REFUSES to be educated. So we can educate everyone. But those that refuse, wont be affected.
Education is the best prevention! We cant ban everything that looks scary.