To all the Europeans and Aussie's on this forum...

[Lord George]

Having a gun makes you dangerous, being dangerous makes you a target, being a target makes you dead. This is why I would not carry a gun around even if I legally could, if I draw a gun on a criminal he's going to shoot me. Even if I get the upper hand and kill him, I've just ended a life over a matter which otherwise probably would have ended with no one getting hurt

 

[Pain Is Inevitable]

As wrong the United States of America is on many, many matters, I believe they are right in encouraging their citizens to be responsible for themselves and their surroundings. It would also be nice if they would move away from being so focused on punishing their criminals and more focused on doing something about the social reasons for them becoming criminals in the first place, but I digress.

It is also a bit sickening to see adult people being so insecure about themselves that they would not intervene to save another person in need.

 

[mosinmatt]

Or is killing animals bad to you too?

...

Well, yes. I mean, for food, fine, but killing something just for the hell of it? But that's because I both oppose animal cruelty in general, and have value for life. So I just don't get hunting for fun. 'Congratulations, you killed a sentient life, who was defenceless against the advanced human technology you wielded. You must be proud.'

I do actually understand people fascination with guns, I share it to a degree, I just don't see the need for civilians to wield one.

Never been hunting before have you? hunting for "sport" is illegal in most states. You need to remove the carcass. You cant just let it rot. Even so. Hunting culls the population, thus HELPING them

As wrong t
he United States of America is on many, many matters, I believe they are right in encouraging their citizens to be responsible for themselves and their surroundings. It would also be nice if they would move away from being so focused on punishing their criminals and more focused on doing something about the social reasons for them becoming criminals in the first place, but I digress.

It is also a bit sickening to see adult people being so insecure about themselves that they would not intervene to save another person in need.

That wont help here. Gangsta lide style is too engrained in many many communities. These ENCOURAGE crime. ENCOURAGE going to jail. ENCOURAGE killing people, ENCOURAGE not getting an education. You can educate everyone, but if they dont want to listen, they wont.
They best thing to do, is just cull them out of the population. Once the hiphop gangsta culture is dead, there will be peace.

Having a gun makes you dangerous, being dangerous makes you a target, being a target makes you dead. This is why I would not carry a gun around even if I legally could, if I draw a gun on a criminal he's going to shoot me. Even if I get the upper hand and kill him, I've just ended a life over a matter which otherwise probably would have ended with no one getting hurt

Having a gun does not make you dangerous, nor does it make you a target.
Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200

 

[Ploppy]

Never been hunting before have you? hunting for "sport" is illegal in most states. You need to remove the carcass. You cant just let it rot. Even so. Hunting culls the population, thus HELPING them

No, but I live in the UK and, don't know if I mentioned this, I don't own a gun. I can see that there are occasions when it is necessary to, say, keep the numbers of a certain species down to benefit the wider ecosystem, but as I said above, it's hunting for fun I don't get. Hunting out of necessity, food or preventing disease spreading etc, fine. I don't particualy like it, but at least it's for a good reason.

Even if you can't just leave the carcass, most hunting in America isn't necessary. They might have to remove the carcass, but they are still choosing to hunt when they don't need to. There are, y'know, supermarkets. You don't need to go into the forest and emerge with a dead dear in order to eat any more. So, yeah, i'm against any unnecessary hunting. If you don't need to kill an animal for your own survival or defence, then why do it anyway?

That wont help here. Gangsta lide style is too engrained in many many communities. These ENCOURAGE crime. ENCOURAGE going to jail. ENCOURAGE killing people, ENCOURAGE not getting an education. You can educate everyone, but if they dont want to listen, they wont.
They best thing to do, is just cull them out of the population. Once the hiphop gangsta culture is dead, there will be peace.

Oh you have got to be kidding...

 

[DrummerM]

To answer the original question: No, I don't wish I had all the legal authority to own a gun (Or multiple guns). Why? I'd have nothing to do with them. I live in Adelaide, close to the city, so there's nothing much to hunt. And what other purposes does a gun have, apart from shooting things? I suppose I could put it up on a wall and show it off to guests, but I don't think any of my friends would be too impressed.

And I don't believe America has been irresponsible with gun laws and such. There are plenty of incidents involving guns, but I don't believe you can speak for the country as a whole. I also don't think guns should be banned, but the laws about who can possess them should be much stricter. In the end, guns are only as dangerous as the person wielding them.

 

[Goatlemon]

So you want me to call the police and stay far away. And not harm or aggrave the criminal.

Two things can be said about that:

1.) You're assuming that the criminal is a relatively nice guy. Why should I leave you to the mercy of the criminal, who might just slash your throat after you give him your wallet?

Did you read my earlier post? Did you read my reasoning that the criminal probably isn't going to kill me based on the fact that if he was, he would have just stabbed me in the back and taken his time to get my wallet from my corpse.

2.) The police are NOT there to protect you.

They're not? Then isn't that "To protect and serve" on the side of their cars false advertising?

What if after 10 minutes, the police still haven't arrived? Happens all the time!

Maybe I was a little too subtle in my first post on this, so I'll say it clearer: I would give him my wallet.

Only an idiot would carry too much cash, and credit cards can be cancelled. It's not worth dying over.

Why do you want to render people completely defenseless? Why do you want criminals to be able to do whatever they want?

Way to put words in my mouth, I never said that. If you want to debate me then fine, but debate what I actually say, not what you think I'm saying.

BTW, if you're going to convince me you're going to need a lot more than a lame hypothetical that involves me being in a different country, braking common sense rules such as being out alone at night, and entrusting my life to a person that has no obvious law enforcement training who could potentially make the situation far worse for me.

 

[mosinmatt]

Never been hunting before have you? hunting for "sport" is illegal in most states. You need to remove the carcass. You cant just let it rot. Even so. Hunting culls the population, thus HELPING them

No, but I live in the UK and, don't know if I mentioned this, I don't own a gun. I can see that there are occasions when it is necessary to, say, keep the numbers of a certain species down to benefit the wider ecosystem, but as I said above, it's hunting for fun I don't get. Hunting out of necessity, food or preventing disease spreading etc, fine. I don't particualy like it, but at least it's for a good reason.

Even if you can't just leave the carcass, most hunting in America isn't necessary. They might have to remove the carcass, but they are still choosing to hunt when they don't need to. There are, y'know, supermarkets. You don't need to go into the forest and emerge with a dead dear in order to eat any more. So, yeah, i'm against any unnecessary hunting. If you don't need to kill an animal for your own survival or defence, then why do it anyway?

That wont help here. Gangsta lide style is too engrained in many many communities. These ENCOURAGE crime. ENCOURAGE going to jail. ENCOURAGE killing people, ENCOURAGE not getting an education. You can educate everyone, but if they dont want to listen, they wont.
They best thing to do, is just cull them out of the population. Once the hiphop gangsta culture is dead, there will be peace.

Oh you have got to be kidding...

Were you not listening! Hunting is NECESSARY! Not necessary to hunt in America? Are limeys that damn stupid? It is hippy trash like you that cause deer herds to starve and slowly suffer to death.
Many people still live out in the country, and they live off the food they hunt and raise.
What is it with hippies and wanting animals to suffer?

Also. yes I am serious. Gang bangers need to be eradicated. Along with Chavs.

 

[SomeBritishDude]

Nope. I hate guns. Always have.

 

[Ploppy]

Were you not listening! Hunting is NECESSARY! Not necessary to hunt in America? Are limeys that damn stupid? It is hippy trash like you that cause deer herds to starve and slowly suffer to death.
Many people still live out in the country, and they live off the food they hunt and raise.
What is it with hippies and wanting animals to suffer?

Also. yes I am serious. Gang bangers need to be eradicated. Along with Chavs.

You remember that bit where I said I was against unnecessary hunting? Well the most basic logic would follow that that wouldn't apply to necessary hunting, doesn't it? And you can't say that all hunting in the USA is all a part of a human mission to save animals from the cruelty of malnutrition, you know people hunt for fun as well as I do. And here in the UK we've managed to keep our deer quite alive without shooting them all, thank you very much.

And again, relax. It's a debate on an internet forum, it's not that important. So let's avoid petty insults and xenophobia, shall we?

And how many of those many people are so remote they have no where to buy food but they do have a shop for ammo and hunting gear? Besides, that's moot because I already said, quite clearly: "Hunting out of necessity, food or preventing disease spreading etc, fine." Of course, that only applies if it is necessary. Simply being a couple of miles from a Walmart doesn't count. But the herd starving to death would be covered in the 'etc.' So, yeah. You're now arguing against thing I didn't say. Bravo.

And as far as I know, Hippies are generally all in favour of prevention of cruelty to animals, they just don't think that's best achieved by putting a bullet in their brain. Not being a hippie I can't be certain of course, but that's as far as I understand it.

I'm going to leave the Chav/Gang banger comments for now because it's far too late to be dealing with that level of ignorance, not to mention the wrong thread to do it in.

 

[mosinmatt]

SO what if someone enjoys hunting?
Being one with nature. Tracking, stalking (in before GET OUT OF HERE STALKER!) Beign as quiet as you can. Dialing in the range and windage. Getting the perfect shot.
Go with a bow or crossbow it is even more of a challenge!

 

[Ploppy]

What if someone enjoys theft? They still shouldn't do it, right? Simple hedonism is not reason enough to justify something, especially something that results in the death of sentient life.

 

[Jharry5]

I'm against the use of guns, and I can fully understand why they were made illegal here in the UK (except for farmers).
But, criminals intent on using guns are still getting their hands on them. The rising rate of gun crime is a worry for me personally (don't know about the rest of UK escapists, but I live in an area where its one of the worst rates in the country, apparently...)
Thinking like this, would owning a gun make me feel safer?



Somehow, I doubt it...

 

[TomNook]

I trust neither the cops nor the government, call me paranoid if you want, my country isn't the one with the highest amount of security cameras. It's not the government's job to allow you to have them, the government isn't there to tell you what you can and can't have. Either you control the government, or the government controls you.

 

[mosinmatt]

What if someone enjoys theft? They still shouldn't do it, right? Simple hedonism is not reason enough to justify something, especially something that results in the death of sentient life.

Way to twist things around.
What is wrong with enjoying hunting? You get food, and other materials (many hunters use/sell the horns, and hooves of animals). Many hunters are also conservationists. They get to do something they enjoy, while helping keep animal population in check.

 

[Brett Alex]

Because you're the most radical anti-gun person in this thread, and because you said you were against guns being used for self-defense. So I was very curious what you would want me to do if I had a concealed handgun.

So you want me to call the police and stay far away. And not harm or aggrave the criminal.

Two things can be said about that:

1.) You're assuming that the criminal is a relatively nice guy. Why should I leave you to the mercy of the criminal, who might just slash your throat after you give him your wallet?

2.) The police are NOT there to protect you. What if after 10 minutes, the police still haven't arrived? Happens all the time!

Why do you want to render people completely defenseless? Why do you want criminals to be able to do whatever they want?

Well since you ignored or didn't see my last rebuttle to the situation, I'll respond again:

1) Why would the criminal threaten me with a knife and then kill me? Why not just kill me and grab my wallet in the first place? You know why? Because killing someone you have never met doesn't come naturally to most people. The reason the guy is waving the knife around is because he is clearly to threaten me, threaten not kill. Even if he is an emotionless bastard with no qualms about killing, comitting a murder is gonna cause him a lot more trouble than comitting a mugging.

So I think its safe to assume the fact that I'm still breathing kind of shows he doesn't want me dead.

2) Do you really think I'm gonna stall the guy for 10 minutes? As soon as he asks, the wallet is his. After 10 minutes I only care where the ambulance is, and by then I'll probably walk back into the store for help anyway (where they are more than likely to have a first aid kit), and hope that there are some bystanders nearby who have first aid knowledge.

Yes, I've let a criminal walk all over me, I'm hurt and I've lost some money. But like I said before, at least I'm still alive.
This is such a hard issue, because part of me does think "Fuck yeah guns are cool, if I had one no one would mess with me," but thikning about it more I know that mentality is badly flawed. Unfortunately life isn't like the movies, the mere prescence of a gun does not strike terror into the hearts of criminals and save the day.

 

[mosinmatt]

the mere prescence of a gun does not strike terror into the hearts of criminals and save the day.

Actually, yes it does. Civilians carrying firearms (legally) rarely have to use them. Most of the time, the simple presentation of the firearm is enough to stop the situation, and make the criminal scum shit himself.
One thing that is safe to assume though. When a criminal confronts you with a weapon, assume he will use it. It is everyones job as humans to make sure those around you are not hurt, and to offer aid. In this case it would be first aid.

I would personally like to take a First responders class. But blood makes me want to faint.

 

[slappahoe69]

just because someone is only threatening you doesn't always mean the threat is empty; the status quo in an armed robbery or something like that can always change.

 

[Brett Alex]

Actually, yes it does. Civilians carrying firearms (legally) rarely have to use them. Most of the time, the simple presentation of the firearm is enough to stop the situation, and make the criminal scum shit himself.
One thing that is safe to assume though. When a criminal confronts you with a weapon, assume he will use it. It is everyones job as humans to make sure those around you are not hurt, and to offer aid. In this case it would be first aid.
I would personally like to take a First responders class. But blood makes me want to faint.

just because someone is only threatening you doesn't always mean the threat is empty; the status quo in an armed robbery or something like that can always change.

Firstly, if its true that crimanls only need to see the weapon to feel threatened and comply, isn't it also true that the criminal only needs to present his target with a weapon and not actually use it?

Secondly, empty threats. This is the whole "concealed weapon vs. obvious weapon" argument. You make your weapon obvious when you want to use the mere sight of it communicate who you are and what you are capable of. You carry a concealed weapon when you want it to be a surprise, to give you and edge or so that no one is suspicious of you. Think about it, if you carry a big fuck off Desert Eagle obviously on your hip, people are gonna treat you differently to if you have a sneaky Browning Hi power tucked out of sight in your coat pocket, even though both are just as lethal.

For a criminal who wants or needs to kill, the weapon is out of sight because they want or need the element of surprise. For the criminal or wants or needs to threaten, the weapon is in plain sight because they want you scared. Yes, the threat isn't entirely empty, but if you comply with their demands they are not going to kill you, cause its just too much trouble.

 

[Berethond]

What if someone enjoys theft? They still shouldn't do it, right? Simple hedonism is not reason enough to justify something, especially something that results in the death of sentient life.

Define sentient, please.