To all the Europeans and Aussie's on this forum...

[mosinmatt]

The right to bear arms was never intended to be for personal defense from other citizens. It was included in the Bill of Rights to be for defense against the state it self, so that the population always has the power to rise up, form a militia, and defend itself against an oppressive regime. Dunno if it's as relevant today as it was when it was written, but that was the reason behind it, not some kind of LOL BUT WUT IF U GET ATAKKED BY SUMONE thinking.

It was meant for defense from threats both foreign and domestic. This is everything from some gang bangers, to a foreign army, to the politicians.

And also quote:
"Article the fourth..... A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Well, with foreign threats I could see where you're coming from; a militia would help against that, I imagine. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in there about gang bangers, though. That's kinda supposed to be what the police is for. At least, that's how I interpret it. One of the most simultaneously brilliant and frustrating things about that whole document is how it can grow and be interpreted in so many ways, depending on what it needs to do for the country.

It is very simple. It says clearly that it is unconstitutional to deny Citizens their right to bear arms, and thus be secure from harm. I dont see where these commie fucks in congress thing it isnt a right. They should be hanged for treason.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Listen to my time honoured words, America is the capital or irrationality, so I guess that means no...

 

[sneakypenguin]

It is very simple. It says clearly that it is unconstitutional to deny Citizens their right to bear arms, and thus be secure from harm. I dont see where these commie fucks in congress thing it isnt a right. They should be hanged for treason.

You have to understand people like you and I are a semi dying breed (at least with this generation) also politicians don't hold the constitution as a foundation of our country they see it as something to work around and "fix" to their standards, they see it as something that limits rights rather than garuatees them, but alas in the 8 stages of democracy we are a mix of 567 so we get people that don't care about freedom in the true sense, most people as long as it doesn't affect them personally dont care if they take your guns your beliefs, your money, your property, as long as they are taken care of they are happy.

1. From Bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

 

[Fenring]

As an American, I feel that only members or ex-members of the armed forces, police, and other jobs in which you carry a weapon should be able to own a gun. Those people have proven they are responsible and will most likely do nothing crazy.

 

[hebdomad]

Well I don't believe that people need to own military grade weapons. You still can get hunting rifles in Australia... that's all you need really.

Gun crime is not a problem in Australia, and carrying a gun for protection is just asking to get shot anyway.

Not really. Guns hold very little attraction here apart from as tools for those who need them, like farmers.

We find your obsession with them a little creepy, actually.

I second this. I really don't see any reason why you'd need one unless you're a professional shooter or farmer or policeman or something.

Totally agree...

Edit: oh and about getting guns in Australia... some guy was busted (arrested) for having a rocket launcher (military type) in the back of his ute (erhm... link? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Ute ) not to long ago.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I feel that most would have an, for lack of a better word, Americanized view of guns and right and wrong.

In America, this idea that you're fighting tooth and nail with criminals (or rifle and boomstick) is heavily prevailent, to the point that simple lifters of items get shot.

For instance, an article I read about two poor lads lifting a tv outta a house (stealing it) and getting killed by some guy's twelve gauge. Over a TV.
Two people killed over a most likly insured item, sprayed over a wall by some looney with a gun.

Though, I would appreciate having a gun for hunting down some good lunch with. But only for that.

 

[JWAN]

Hunting is very important to balance out the ecosystem, recently in the northern states the deer have become so over populated that they are spreading a disease that threatens to kill off a MASSIVE amount of the herd (if it keeps spreading 76%), and if you can contain it you could kill off the infection.

Not only that but its a tradition, it supplies a cheap food source for the less fortunate (a 25 cent shotgun shell could bag you over 200 pounds of fresh meat, enough to last a winter) If the group I work with (6-8 usually go out) get more than 4 deer we donate the rest to food pantries and we use the hides to make leather ropes, jackets, hats, backpacks, trophies and blankets (just like the Native Americans only we can process them faster)

Hunting also benefits the local economy by getting people to travel around and buy goods from small town stores and sometimes directly from farmers. (we even still trade deer hides for places to stay and so we can hunt in areas that are privately owned.

We use the meat in sausages, we wrap the sausages in the intestine and we use the heart and liver for everything from dog food to jerky and specially made sausages that are lower in fat than beef and it saves money because we don't need to import that much food from overseas (England, New Zealand, Brazil).

No one enjoys killing the animals, we enjoy the hunt, the history and the almost limitless benefits, we even process fresh road kills and I know people who live off of selling pelts of road killed animals. We don't need to fund a slaughterhouse in a foreign country with crappy health standards because we can fend for ourselves.

In the Midwest on turkey farms they discovered how to make crude oil out of turkeys by putting dead animals/waste/roadkill and biomass into a massive pressure cooker (750 gallon capacity) and in a day or two you get real crude oil, just like the stuff that comes out of the ground, they even use human waste! They also take off the natural gas that forms and burn that for heating and cooling thier homes. All of these ideas were taken from the ideas of hunting, renewable energy, and being resourceful and not wasting anything you use.

 

[Dys]

Said it before, I'll say it again.
Gun ownership should come with responsibility, in all cases, no exceptions.
If you own a gun, store it in a cabinet, none of this guns lying around the house in wait, that's a recipe for disaster. Ammunition should not be kept in or alongside firearms. Remove the temptation for people to commit gun related crimes on impulse, and makes gun related accidents a lot less likely.
Really, it's not hard. People too stupid to store guns shouldn't be allowed to have them. simple

Or...not. None of mine are in a cabinet. Having your defense locked away will only get you killed.
Who will enforce this? Going to have armed police go to everyones house?
SEIG HEIL, then boyo.

dont tell my hillbilly relatives, but i think that gun ownership is massively overrated. i mean what are you ever going to use them for? i guess hunting but im totally against that, cuz its as pointless as having a gun. what are they for anyway? are you compensating for something? is it cuz theyre fun? whats so fun about going to a target range and shooting at a cardboard target? does it make you feel manly that you killed an inanimate object? the only thing i can think of that would be actually fun is to give an infinite number of hillbillies an infinite number of shotguns and ammo, an infinite number of pickup trucks, and an infinite number of stop signs, and see how long it takes them to write shakespeare in braille.

Never have i seen more ignorance. Hunting IS necessary. It prevents over population, and feeds people. Everything else in there was nothing but racism and discrimination.

You're right, leaving them lying around the house fully loaded and ready to shoot "burgelers" is completely reasonable.

Fuck all the people who get killed by preventable gun related accidents, we don't want a positive image and/or safe citizens anyway. Education and responsibility have no place in the modern world, life should be more like a cowboy movie where we shoot people breaking into our houses without warning or confirmation of who they are and what their intent is.

Who will enforce this?!
I never mentioned enforcement, I said we shouldn't give them to people too stupid to store them properly. Really, way to completely misunderstand the entire point of responsibility. And for the love of god don't hit me with that bullshit about "self defence". I am Australian, I personially know how easy it is to access illegal firearms in my hometown, and have access to some (properly stored obviously, I respect my tools). Interesting fact, Australias attitude towards guns, even though we have higher rates of violent crimes than most American cities in my hometown of Melbourne, prevents the irresponsible use of firearms. Incidently our rate of gun related crimes and accidents is infinately lower.

As I enjoy hunting I was going to leave this unsaid, but just so you know hunting with an automatic shotgun isn't going to leave you with edible meat. Even a hunting rifle is less effective than properly farmed livestock being put down in a slaughterhouse.

If you people are too irresponsible to store your guns, it reinforces my beleif that they should be harder to legally obtain.

 

[mosinmatt]

Said it before, I'll say it again.
Gun ownership should come with responsibility, in all cases, no exceptions.
If you own a gun, store it in a cabinet, none of this guns lying around the house in wait, that's a recipe for disaster. Ammunition should not be kept in or alongside firearms. Remove the temptation for people to commit gun related crimes on impulse, and makes gun related accidents a lot less likely.
Really, it's not hard. People too stupid to store guns shouldn't be allowed to have them. simple

Or...not. None of mine are in a cabinet. Having your defense locked away will only get you killed.
Who will enforce this? Going to have armed police go to everyones house?
SEIG HEIL, then boyo.

dont tell my hillbilly relatives, but i think that gun ownership is massively overrated. i mean what are you ever going to use them for? i guess hunting but im totally against that, cuz its as pointless as having a gun. what are they for anyway? are you compensating for something? is it cuz theyre fun? whats so fun about going to a target range and shooting at a cardboard target? does it make you feel manly that you killed an inanimate object? the only thing i can think of that would be actually fun is to give an infinite number of hillbillies an infinite number of shotguns and ammo, an infinite number of pickup trucks, and an infinite number of stop signs, and see how long it takes them to write shakespeare in braille.

Never have i seen more ignorance. Hunting IS necessary. It prevents over population, and feeds people. Everything else in there was nothing but racism and discrimination.

You're right, leaving them lying around the house fully loaded and ready to shoot "burgelers" is completely reasonable.

Fuck all the people who get killed by preventable gun related accidents, we don't want a positive image and/or safe citizens anyway. Education and responsibility have no place in the modern world, life should be more like a cowboy movie where we shoot people breaking into our houses without warning or confirmation of who they are and what their intent is.

Who will enforce this?!
I never mentioned enforcement, I said we shouldn't give them to people too stupid to store them properly. Really, way to completely misunderstand the entire point of responsibility. And for the love of god don't hit me with that bullshit about "self defence". I am Australian, I personially know how easy it is to access illegal firearms in my hometown, and have access to some (properly stored obviously, I respect my tools). Interesting fact, Australias attitude towards guns, even though we have higher rates of violent crimes than most American cities in my hometown of Melbourne, prevents the irresponsible use of firearms. Incidently our rate of gun related crimes and accidents is infinately lower.

As I enjoy hunting I was going to leave this unsaid, but just so you know hunting with an automatic shotgun isn't going to leave you with edible meat. Even a hunting rifle is less effective than properly farmed livestock being put down in a slaughterhouse.

If you people are too irresponsible to store your guns, it reinforces my beleif that they should be harder to legally obtain.

You need to look up the REAL stats. There are very few gun accidents in America, and nearly all of them are from hunting accidents IN THE FIELD.
Who says I keep them loaded? So what if I do? Who else has access to them? No one.

As an American, I feel that only members or ex-members of the armed forces, police, and other jobs in which you carry a weapon should be able to own a gun. Those people have proven they are responsible and will most likely do nothing crazy.

Hitler, Stalin, and every other evil dictator will agree with you. Only the military should have weapons. After all, governments killed more innocent people than anyone else combined. So that means that only they should be trusted with the weapons.
Seig Heil good sir.
Also, I sugest you go outside and put a "This is a Gun Free Home" in your front yard. That way the Brown shirts wont burn your house down.

 

[ChickaYeah]

It is very simple. It says clearly that it is unconstitutional to deny Citizens their right to bear arms, and thus be secure from harm. I dont see where these commie fucks in congress thing it isnt a right. They should be hanged for treason.

You have to understand people like you and I are a semi dying breed (at least with this generation) also politicians don't hold the constitution as a foundation of our country they see it as something to work around and "fix" to their standards, they see it as something that limits rights rather than garuatees them, but alas in the 8 stages of democracy we are a mix of 567 so we get people that don't care about freedom in the true sense, most people as long as it doesn't affect them personally dont care if they take your guns your beliefs, your money, your property, as long as they are taken care of they are happy.

1. From Bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

First, to mosinmatt... uhh... no. The commie fucks in Congress are there to do one thing, and that's to serve theor voting populace, as in, to vote the way the people that put them there want them to. If were elected by a gun controlly group, they should vote for gun control. Now, keep in mind, I'm not in favor of gun control at all. I'm also not pro-gun. In fact, I'd say that my opinion on guns falls at right about step 6 of that handy flowchart which Mr. Penguin has provided for us. Speaking of that post, you mention "freedom in the true sense," then you tell me I'm wrong for looking out for numero uno? That /is/ freedom, the freedom to worry about myself, and assume that others can do the same.

 

[ChickaYeah]

Hitler, Stalin, and every other evil dictator will agree with you. Only the military should have weapons. After all, governments killed more innocent people than anyone else combined. So that means that only they should be trusted with the weapons.
Seig Heil good sir.
Also, I sugest you go outside and put a "This is a Gun Free Home" in your front yard. That way the Brown shirts wont burn your house down.

Godwin's law, etc.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Seig Heil good sir.
Also, I suggest you go outside and put a "This is a Gun Free Home" in your front yard. That way the Brown shirts wont burn your house down.

Pardon me, but since when did America have brown shirts burning houses down or a Nazi invasion at all, in fact?

The Government in comprised of people, which is the same thing the gun owners are... as well as the gun victims. They're all people.

You're all the same, only maybe you're afraid of everyone else, because in your mind, if you had the power of a country under you, you'd be an asshole?

Sieg Heil, indeed. In your dreams.

 

[mosinmatt]

It is very simple. It says clearly that it is unconstitutional to deny Citizens their right to bear arms, and thus be secure from harm. I dont see where these commie fucks in congress thing it isnt a right. They should be hanged for treason.

You have to understand people like you and I are a semi dying breed (at least with this generation) also politicians don't hold the constitution as a foundation of our country they see it as something to work around and "fix" to their standards, they see it as something that limits rights rather than garuatees them, but alas in the 8 stages of democracy we are a mix of 567 so we get people that don't care about freedom in the true sense, most people as long as it doesn't affect them personally dont care if they take your guns your beliefs, your money, your property, as long as they are taken care of they are happy.

1. From Bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

First, to mosinmatt... uhh... no. The commie fucks in Congress are there to do one thing, and that's to serve theor voting populace, as in, to vote the way the people that put them there want them to. If were elected by a gun controlly group, they should vote for gun control. Now, keep in mind, I'm not in favor of gun control at all. I'm also not pro-gun. In fact, I'd say that my opinion on guns falls at right about step 6 of that handy flowchart which Mr. Penguin has provided for us. Speaking of that post, you mention "freedom in the true sense," then you tell me I'm wrong for looking out for numero uno? That /is/ freedom, the freedom to worry about myself, and assume that others can do the same.

It is unconstitutional to make laws that go against the constitution. The 2nd amendment is extremely clear. Yet Stalinistic fucks in there blatently said out right "FUCK YOUR RIGHTS".
You cant just do that.
Any further gun control laws should now be met with resistance on all fronts.
In fact, America has very strict gun control laws. You cant be a convicted felon, cant have mental health problems. have to be a citizen, etc etc.
Seriously. Everytime you buy a gun, you go through a background check and everything. Yet all this red tape isnt enough for them. They want to completely strip everything from the 2nd amendment. It doesnt work that way.

Seig Heil good sir.
Also, I suggest you go outside and put a "This is a Gun Free Home" in your front yard. That way the Brown shirts wont burn your house down.

Pardon me, but since when did America have brown shirts burning houses down or a Nazi invasion at all, in fact?

The Government in comprised of people, which is the same thing the gun owners are... as well as the gun victims. They're all people.

You're all the same, only maybe you're afraid of everyone else, because in your mind, if you had the power of a country under you, you'd be an asshole?

Sieg Heil, indeed. In your dreams.

There are no such thing as gun victims. Guns are not sentient beings.
Brown shirts? Wait until next year When Obama gets his private police force that is as well funded as the military to "protect" domestic soil. He said it with his own mouth. Sounds like Brown shirts to me. Probably be his Blank Panther friends.

 

[Booze Zombie]

The second ammendment is outdated, you don't live on the frontier anymore.

 

[Goatlemon]

Hitler, Stalin, and every other evil dictator will agree with you. Only the military should have weapons. After all, governments killed more innocent people than anyone else combined. So that means that only they should be trusted with the weapons.
Seig Heil good sir.
Also, I sugest you go outside and put a "This is a Gun Free Home" in your front yard. That way the Brown shirts wont burn your house down.

Godwin's law, etc.

I'd never heard of Godwin's Law so I just Googled it. Brilliant! I love you Mr. Godwin.

On the topic of Nazi gun control: The Myth of Nazi Gun Control [http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html].

Anyway, I checked to see if there were any more counter points to my arguments here when I got home from work, but it seems Armitage Shanks has addressed everything already. I've never felt so unnecessary.

*slowly walks away sobbing*

 

[Booze Zombie]

There are no such thing as gun victims. Guns are not sentient beings.
Brown shirts? Wait until next year When Obama gets his private police force that is as well funded as the military to "protect" domestic soil. He said it with his own mouth. Sounds like Brown shirts to me. Probably be his Blank Panther friends.

There are no such things as cancer victims, because cancer isn't sentient. There are no such things as hit and run because cars aren't sentient.

It's really not a good standard to hold a tool to, of course it's not sentient. It's a tool, a tool for ending life with. Be it human or animal, your "little friend" ends life.

You're willing to kill people? To permanently turn off some one's spark forever, because you're paranoid?

 

[mosinmatt]

There are no such thing as gun victims. Guns are not sentient beings.
Brown shirts? Wait until next year When Obama gets his private police force that is as well funded as the military to "protect" domestic soil. He said it with his own mouth. Sounds like Brown shirts to me. Probably be his Blank Panther friends.

There are no such things as cancer victims, because cancer isn't sentient. There are no such things as hit and run because cars aren't sentient.

It's really not a good standard to hold a tool to, of course it's not sentient. It's a tool, a tool for ending life with. Be it human or animal, your "little friend" ends life.

You're willing to kill people? To permanently turn off some one's spark forever, because you're paranoid?

jesus fuck your an idiot. Cars dont kill people, guns dont kill people. Know why? Cause they require operators. They cannot act on their own.
yes I am willing to kill people in defense of me, and my family. I will not see them killed, and I will kill to defend them. Every man and woman should be willing to defend those he loves to the death.

 

[Booze Zombie]

jesus fuck your an idiot. Cars dont kill people, guns dont kill people. Know why? Cause they require operators. They cannot act on their own.
yes I am willing to kill people in defense of me, and my family. I will not see them killed, and I will kill to defend them. Every man and woman should be willing to defend those he loves to the death.

Yes, the car or the gun is the tool of death, it did the killing with the energy of the sentience of a person behind it.

A man without a gun can still kill, but if you used a gun, the gun killed on your behalf, because YOU used it.

"I knifed a man in the throat. He didn't die from a knife wound, he simply choked to death on his own blood..."

Would this sentence be "acceptable" to you, huh?

 

[ChickaYeah]

Almost forgot to mention: All of you are missing the point. Guns are important because we'll need them to fend off the Horde when Z-Day finally happens.