To all the Europeans and Aussie's on this forum...
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Yes, but IT did the killing because YOU had it. Withot that tool, the death could not have been facillitated so conveniently.mosinmatt said:
A gun laying on the floor does nothing, but with a man at the trigger, it kills.
By the way, the idea that you should purge "types" of people was a Nazi ideal, so if anything, YOU shouldn't be armed and the government should.
mosinmatt said:
The gun control argument: It's like the chicken or the egg, but with homicide.Booze Zombie said:
And if YOU don't have a gun YOU can't shoot someone in a fit of blind rage. So the problem is that you have access to the tool. Remove the tool(gun) from this eqaution and you have 2 people who still have lives. Add a gun in and 2 lives are destroyed 1 person is dead and the other person is in prison for murder. Guns don't kill people on their own but they make it easy to kill someone in an easily regretable fit of rage.
I never said that the gun "influenced" the gun owner, I am trying to say it turns an idiot into a dangerous idiot, though. Like a redneck in a truck with a shotgun and a big list of people he wants to kill.mosinmatt said:
The gun in a tool designed soley for killing and maiming, which you may have noticed... are bad things. You don't want them to happen to you.
Being killed or maimed is hard without a tool, like a car, a knife, a wrench or a gun. Now whilst I can't say that murders don't happen where civies don't own guns, not having a mental patient on a roof with a deer rifle, shooting me in the jugular would make me very happy.
I still have my fists. my teeth, a random rock on the ground.falcontwin said:
Jesus fuck dude. Why cant you get this through your skull. Guns dont kill people. A person makes that decision.
Stop the bleeding heart hippy crap. People will always kill other people. Take away a gun, he will use a knife, take thaat away, a bat. Take that away, a rock.
Why dont we just cut everyones hands off then? Then evil tools wont make it "easier" to kill anybody.
Real stats?mosinmatt said:
There are over 10,000 gun related murders every year in america. Nine american kids die every day as a result of gunfire. These are (really bad) numbers that, taken out of context, you're right, are essentially misleading. Of course even if realisticly that isn't as many deaths caused by guns as by, say, knives or cars, that is still a really fucking bad number, that's still 10 000 murders a year too many.
It is also completely irrelivent.
If you want to contest stats, your welcome to provide your own, but I don't really care about the numbers. Every single preventable gun accident, not murder, is pointless loss of life.
I don't care where most accidents happen, if you use guns you accept the chance of an accident happening. I care that there is a significant number of preventable accidents that can be atritubted to a combination of a false sense of safety and ignorance. I'm not even going to argue with the stupidity that is your arguament of no one else has acess to them, or the sheer retarded belief people seem to have the having guns laying around their home will somehow save them. Just not worth going into, I can't change your mind, and as I'm right I don't really care enough to try. Just accept that I disagree with you here completely, and know that it isn't even slightly relevant to the major problem with storing guns incorrectly.
Too many innocent people die for absoloutely no reason because guns are stored iresponsibly. It is completely indisputable, even without numbers you can contest, that countries with high rates of firearms and educated, responsible people have less gun related accidents than countries where firearms are common but people are not responsible or educated. My point remains valid whether I'm comparing America to South Africa (america having the lower rate of gun damage) or Canada to New Zealand. Storing guns in cabinets away from ammunition lowers the rate of accidents.
Hey, how about that... people kill, huh? Didn't know that... /sarcasmmosinmatt said:
The gun makes the process easier, what with ranged hemorrhage inducing capabilities and the ability for anyone to acquire one legally whilst still sane (and retain acquisition of one whilst no longer sane, think of the clock tower).
It is a killing tool and killing is not a positive thing, no matter how you spin it.
Four times more likely to burn to death or drown,
? 17 times more likely to be poisoned,
? 19 times more likely to fall, and
? 53 times more likely to die in an automobile accident.
In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is
nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times
for ages 0-5.204
Fact: 15 states that passed ?safe storage? laws saw 300 more murders, 3,860 more rapes, 24,650
more robberies, and over 25,000 more aggravated assaults in the first five years. On average, the
annual costs borne by victims averaged over $2.6 billion as a result of lost productivity, out-ofpocket
expenses, medical bills, and property losses. "The problem is, you see no decrease ineither juvenile accidental gun deaths or suicides when such laws are enacted, but you do see an
increase in crime rates." 257
Fact: Only five American children under the age of 10 died of accidents involving handguns in
1997.258 Thus, the need for ?safe storage? laws appears to be low.
Fact: In Merced, California, an intruder stabbed three children to death with a pitchfork. The
oldest child had been trained by her father in firearms use, but could not save her siblings from
the attacker because the gun was locked away to comply with the state?s ?safe storage? law.259
? 17 times more likely to be poisoned,
? 19 times more likely to fall, and
? 53 times more likely to die in an automobile accident.
In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages
0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is
nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times
for ages 0-5.204
Fact: 15 states that passed ?safe storage? laws saw 300 more murders, 3,860 more rapes, 24,650
more robberies, and over 25,000 more aggravated assaults in the first five years. On average, the
annual costs borne by victims averaged over $2.6 billion as a result of lost productivity, out-ofpocket
expenses, medical bills, and property losses. "The problem is, you see no decrease ineither juvenile accidental gun deaths or suicides when such laws are enacted, but you do see an
increase in crime rates." 257
Fact: Only five American children under the age of 10 died of accidents involving handguns in
1997.258 Thus, the need for ?safe storage? laws appears to be low.
Fact: In Merced, California, an intruder stabbed three children to death with a pitchfork. The
oldest child had been trained by her father in firearms use, but could not save her siblings from
the attacker because the gun was locked away to comply with the state?s ?safe storage? law.259
The exact same NRA propaganda you posted 5 pages back it's not anymore true now than it was then. And it's compliled by"guy smith"? I bet thats a real person.!mosinmatt said:
You keep on with the same nonsensical arguement that"guns don't kill people". No they don't on their own they are an inanimate object but you put one in the hand of a scared little pussy who thinks the whole world is stronger than him so he needs a gun to make him equal to a normal person. All of a sudden a gun is a deadly weapon controlled by a coward that has killed another human being because it's owner was a scared little ***** with a big fallace errr... I mean gun.
Once more for the hard of thinking. having a gun makes a tense situation deadly, without the gun someone may get a beating and walk away a changed person with a gun someone will end up dead and the perpitrator will end up someones girlfriend in a jailcell.
Hey, yeah... try reading my posts. Okay, so say I bought a hunting rifle with a really nice scope and plenty of ammo, right?mosinmatt said:
Okay, so say I'm sane as well, now say... I turn insane and go on a killing spree. How does the mental sickness bit cover that, huh? I had the gun legally and went insane, it was all alright, right?
Hey, yeah... try reading my posts. Okay, so say I bought a hunting rifle with a really nice scope and plenty of ammo, right?Booze Zombie said:
Okay, so say I'm sane as well, now say... I turn insane and go on a killing spree. How does the mental sickness bit cover that, huh? I had the gun legally and went insane, it was all alright, right?[/quote]
Crazy people will always find a way to kill people. Cant stop them all. But did you know that ANYBODY can buy a car? and ANYBODY can buy a bat? Then they can use those to easily kill people.
SO, using your natural hippy logic. They should be banned, right? for the children
If you looked at it, it clearly states ALL of its sources. Which are official organizations, and government institutions.falcontwin said:
But then you go on some random rant. I guess 100lb women should just learn to defend themselves from rapists with their hands. Cause them being weaker makes them a "Coward and a pussy" right? Brilliant.
Crazy people will always find a way to kill people. Cant stop them all. But did you know that ANYBODY can buy a car? and ANYBODY can buy a bat? Then they can use those to easily kill people.mosinmatt said:
SO, using your natural hippy logic. They should be banned, right? for the children[/quote]
Where I come from, you need a license to drive.
There has also been a huge push recently to make said license harder to obtain. Driving is (as are guns where I'm from) a privellidge. I rather like comparing the two but it seems to contradict your point. And, yes people kill people, but the guns help.
Might as well put this out there now, while it suits, there are estimated to be 10 million guns in Australia (according to Ted Drane, ex-President of the Sporting Shooters Association), thats almost half the population owning a gun. So having said that I'm guessing that it isn't completely arbitrary to compare gun related incidents in Australia and America, as guns are in circulation in both countries.
Also the stats you have supplied seem very loaded, dismissing everything as 'myth', also they don't seem to follow their own table of contents. I'll stick with my Penn and Teller statistics for now, until I can find something better.
*edit* I'm struggling to find cited sources, there are numbers listed to the facts, but I can't find the correlating source.
While the alledged numbers they are suggesting are not substancial enough to claim it as a nationwide statistic, I don't understand how a suicide is any less tragic and relevant.
Yes, but the fucking gun makes it a lot easier for me to shoot you in your fucking stupid face, you see?mosinmatt said:
The gun IS a tool of murder, like a fucking bow and arrow, a crossbow or a god damned missile.
It's a projectile weapon, projectiles have this habit of making murder a lot less hard.
Seriously, your views are backwards. A gun is designed for killing, killing will never be "good". It doesn't matter if the person did it, the gun made the fucking kill easier and ensure less risk for the shooter.
I would suggest if you want to defend your family, buy a taser and a box of handcuffs. At least that way you can try not to be a murderer, of course... assuming you don't want to be. If you do though, you're defending your family from a mirror image of yourself.
By the way, I haven't heard hippie used as an insult for a while. You gonna call me an Atheist next? Perhaps you're going to say I smoke marijuana and I like black people?
Where I come from, you need a license to drive.Dys said:
There has also been a huge push recently to make said license harder to obtain. Driving is (as are guns where I'm from) a privellidge. I rather like comparing the two but it seems to contradict your point. And, yes people kill people, but the guns help.
Might as well put this out there now, while it suits, there are estimated to be 10 million guns in Australia (according to Ted Drane, ex-President of the Sporting Shooters Association), thats almost half the population owning a gun. So having said that I'm guessing that it isn't completely arbitrary to compare gun related incidents in Australia and America, as guns are in circulation in both countries.
Also the stats you have supplied seem very loaded, dismissing everything as 'myth', also they don't seem to follow their own table of contents. I'll stick with my Penn and Teller statistics for now, until I can find something better.[/quote]
many quotes that you see on american gun violence includes justified use from the police and civilians. Like if some crackhead was taken down by the cops. That is recorded as a murder sometimes. Or someone breaks into your house trying to kill you, and you blast them. The brady campaign counts that against you.
Many of them are also criminal on criminal violence. So, obviously, LEGAL guns are not the problem.
You can go on about all this "This makes it easier to kill" But that doesnt matter. A cricket bat can kill someone too. Why should my sporting equipment be taken away and not yours? So mine have multiple uses, one including preventing bodily harm to me and my family. Whats so wrong with protecting myself and those I love?
Tasers dont always work, and are only one shot. Tranq guns also are not instant, and dont always work.Booze Zombie said:
Stopping someone from killing you is not murder. It is self defense.
You're still destroying a life and most people don't break into houses to kill, it's mostly for properly theft.mosinmatt said:
Would you shoot some poor heroin addict grabbing your TV or would you rather just let him go and get the insurance for your TV? Getting the insurance might not haunt you so much.
Okay I see this argument all the time, yes having a gun ups the ante a hell of a lot, if I pull mine someone is going to get shot. But having a gun gives me the option to defend myself that way if I chose to, I have the ability to chose where the confrontation goes if he has a knife i can draw a gun on him if he has a gun already out I can toss him my wallet and leave my gun concealed. Having a gun doesn't always mean having to use it it's just another option in protection.falcontwin said:
People always seem to think a gun ups the situation to deadly levels which is not always the case sometimes it immediately disarms a situation, I mean how many pawn shop/gas station robberies have you seen on youtueb that ended when a clerk pulled a gun, it wasnt clerk pulls gun robber then pulls his and opens fire. Most were clerk pulls gun robber freaks out and sprints for the door.
I know I would, if your in my house and unwelcome you forfeit any right you had to live, I don't know your there just to steal the tv and i'm not gonna find out. Your gonna get hit with the tac light, identified and hit with 12 gauge or .357 sig hollowpoints.Booze Zombie said:
EDIT: and thanks to the Castle doctrine most states now have I can't be charged with anything, or even sued in civil court .
Obviously you do not know how it works. The gun is firstly to be used to get compliance, or scare away. most criminals shit themselves looking down a 12 gauge.Booze Zombie said:
If a threat to your safety is observed, most states allow you to defend yourself. This sometimes results in the death of the assaulter, as it would be the only way to stop them from killing you.
very simply stuff.